Desperately Seeking Freedom

[Susan]

Relaxation coming back today which seems really connected to the insights during the week...Looking back I remember noticing alot of relaxation seeming to happen but forgot to mention it.

Have a lovely weekend Nick.

[zenkitties]

I wasn't expecting relationship advise but you did hit some nails on some heads, so thanks for this additional service!

I'm just glad you saw some clarifications for yourself through those words! :)

My last post was just to illustrate how quickly I got pulled back into the story after, as you say, a few days of progress.

The realization happens in a flash, but the conditioning parts can tend to stick around (or not, sometimes it leaves very quickly). It all depends on how well one can relax into it.

So I was so surprised how personal it has felt over the last 24 hours.

It affects people differently is basically what it comes down to. Which is why its nice to see how others my be perceiving whats going on. But the whats actually going on is that life is expressing itself in so many different ways that for some it may feel VERY personal. They are right that it's impersonal. But to the false sense of self, it IS very personal. Because its tapping into that wholesome human level of existence.

The force pulls you under and kind of spits you out of its reach. Takes courage but is true of this work too perhaps?

You know I did not know that but that is a very good way of putting it! Like a black hole as well, as steven hawking found that a black hole sucks things in only to spit them out somewhere else, via white holes.

Okay, today is a new day. I know - every moment is a new moment (I kind of get that).

Yes every moment is literally the only moment that is had, there is none other like it, and never will be. You are also never the same person from moment to moment, you will never been the same as you were now... and now.. and now.. and now.. shifting shifting shifting, always constantly shifting. You are literally not the same person.

Are the older beliefs and conditioning patterns the hardest to see through? I guess so. Is that why Ram Dass says 'if you think you're enlightened, spend a week with your parents'? Ha ha.

they CAN be, not necessarily are though. Some people may finally have that perceptual or reality shift and those things literally just drop away immediately. Some things stick around, and some things just drop in an instant. It really depends, at least in my experience.

If I could have seen at the time that old conditioning was arising and playing out and events happened that led to the issue yesterday which I didn't cause (just this mind body organism making a conditioned response to events), the sense of personally failing and needing to make up for my failures, need not have arisen. Wayne Liqourman says wherever there is shame or pride, there is an opportunity to investigate the idenitification with a personal doer.

Yes the beacon is being sent out for you to receive it, relax into that old conditioning. Give it the attention it needs and give it permission to let it go (or not let it go). The difference of the letting go is whether the suffering will persist (if it is chosen to be grasped onto again) or will abate if it is let go of.

That is why I will keep saying relax and accept into that conditioning. Let it be, there is nothing wrong with it coming up. Just see it for what it is. Just a part of conditioning, and then let it go, surrender it instead of holding it captive.

Those conditioning are not you, there is no you in those conditioning so there is no need to hold on. :)

So do not be concerned when you do not hear from me tomorrow. Dog walking will still be happening and so will self-enquiry!

You have a beautiful weekend Susan, and of course, much love and compassion to you, your mother, and your puppy!

[zenkitties]

Relaxation coming back today which seems really connected to the insights during the week...Looking back I remember noticing alot of relaxation seeming to happen but forgot to mention it.

Have a lovely weekend Nick.

Awesome, that means that opening is happening on many levels as well. the conditioning is slowly being broken up without anyone doing anything. Isn't that beautiful... and because of this "breaking up" there is allowance for more relaxation into the natural state. :)

Thank you Susan, you too. <3

[Susan]

Yes the beacon is being sent out for you to receive it, relax into that old conditioning. Give it the attention it needs and give it permission to let it go (or not let it go). The difference of the letting go is whether the suffering will persist (if it is chosen to be grasped onto again) or will abate if it is let go of.

Is this process about letting go? It seems to have brought up some panic about letting go of relationships in my life which has led to some constriction and a wish to hold on tighter. I am trying to relax into that. Can you say anything about detachment and letting go and this process please?

I had a general sense on my dog walk today of a loosening up. I'm trying to go with this but then at times I get more constricted when a kind of panic comes in that I'm letting go and may lose something.

I seem unable to continue with this investigation of no self when with others (some more than others0. Is this normal? Can you say anything about this?

[zenkitties]

Is this process about letting go?

Yes very much so. It is letting go of EVERYTHING. You cannot take it with you, there is no you to have these things.

Jesus said, "You must lose your life, to gain your life."

Can you say anything about detachment and letting go and this process please?

Okay, sure. Detachment. Detachment is different then renunciation okay, so this doesn't necessarily always translate into rejecting something. To reject something that is there in your reality right now is to grasp onto it. I know it seems paradoxical. But look into your direct experience on all the times you've rejected something. What kind of feelings come up with rejecting? Suffering..

Well what about if you were to accept that those things are there currently in your life, and not try and control the outcomes? The feelings from old conditioning may be there but again, we are seeing through that the feeling is just energy and the story is empty as there is no you that that story is attached to.

Detachment is seeing through the story, accepting the story is there and then deciding what the best path for you is regardless of what the story is doing. I call the story more of a paper tiger, it looks scary and acts kind of scary sometimes, but you give it those things when you attach a divided you to it.

I had a general sense on my dog walk today of a loosening up. I'm trying to go with this but then at times I get more constricted when a kind of panic comes in that I'm letting go and may lose something.

You will lose something. You will lose everything that has nothing to do with your natural state. You lose you. There is no you there to lose. So don't worry about death in this sense. That is what the fear is coming from. It fears a death is coming on. That is true in a sense, because there is no you so the thought of a you will have to move on, will no longer exist in that perceived reality. I will say you lose nothing of importance.

Relating to others has nothing to do with you. I repeat. Relating has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. there is no you relating. It is just relationships happening because there is no division. There is no seperation so there is always love right here, right now in this moment. Its when division enters that it seems that you and the other exist. But to see that you don't exist is to see that everything is a part of the same overall thing.

You do not exist. Look and see this.

I seem unable to continue with this investigation of no self when with others (some more than others0. Is this normal? Can you say anything about this?

Oh? What is saying that? That seems like a cop out for looking at it. A diversion from investigation.

[Susan]

It is letting go of EVERYTHING. You cannot take it with you, there is no you to have these things.

I already knew this intellectually, but have recently been feeling it with some panic arising if I'm not controlling outcomes. On the other hand, there are times of relaxation and relief. I like the image of the paper tiger.

Relating to others has nothing to do with you. I repeat. Relating has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. there is no you relating.

Helpful to hear this. Somtimes I need to hear this stuff - and again and again it seems!

Oh? What is saying that? That seems like a cop out for looking at it. A diversion from investigation.

Yes, thank you for challenging me on this. I'm with my sister and nephews this afternoon and all day tomorrow, so I will really look into this when with them. No cop outs!

You do not exist. Look and see this.

I am looking, relaxation is happening, some panic arising bit no clear seeing. What's stopping this being seen?

[zenkitties]

I already knew this intellectually, but have recently been feeling it with some panic arising if I'm not controlling outcomes. On the other hand, there are times of relaxation and relief. I like the image of the paper tiger.

Yes keep looking until you directly experience it completely. Until that relaxation takes over and becomes natural state. That non-controlling flow.

Helpful to hear this. Somtimes I need to hear this stuff - and again and again it seems!

Don't worry its my job as the "guide" to bonk you on the head with this stuff until it takes hold on its own.

Yes, thank you for challenging me on this. I'm with my sister and nephews this afternoon and all day tomorrow, so I will really look into this when with them. No cop outs!

Of Course, as part of you, its my job to challenge you on this. No more cop outs for us okay? See it this way. That not only does a you not exist, that nobody elses you exists either. There is literally no separation. It interesting to see from these eyes because you realize the beauty of how everything is like a huge orchestrated dance with itself because that is literally what is happening.

I am looking, relaxation is happening, some panic arising bit no clear seeing. What's stopping this being seen?

well the most direct answer is YOU is stopping it from taking hold. But understand that when I say you, it means conditioning (past thoughts, philosophies, beliefs, concepts, expectations.) All of this plays a roll in casting the wool over ones eyes. Its all a letting go process back to our natural state.

[Susan]

It's all patterns, like a kaleidoscope, but when patterns appear to recur (although they never recur exactly the same twice - I get that), they get labelled by thought and then seem familiar and somehow identification and attachment (and suffering) occurs. Its all just a flow of patterns, some of which are then given meaning (some never catch our attention). That's why we like to travel to new places to get away from this familiarity, labelling and identification.

Please keep challenging - Clarity needed here.

[zenkitties]

It's all patterns, like a kaleidoscope, but when patterns appear to recur (although they never recur exactly the same twice - I get that), they get labelled by thought and then seem familiar and somehow identification and attachment (and suffering) occurs.

Maybe a general theme, but can we call a pattern a pattern if it is never the same. Like you said, it is never the same twice. You are actually this way too... a false sense of continuity. You are never the same person twice, changing billions of times per moment.

Yes the sense of familiarity with a thought tends to bring about said conditioning. Or it activates under a specific theme. So how does one get rid of the suffering? (hint: it has to do with the self of you existing and a sense of division)

Its all just a flow of patterns, some of which are then given meaning (some never catch our attention). That's why we like to travel to new places to get away from this familiarity, labelling and identification.

A flow of sensations that are not linked in any way. They have no actual continuity with each other. Like a rubber band ball remember? :)

Yeah i would say that is accurate with the traveling from what i can see but i would also add that traveling is happening because there is a sense of diversion from dealing with reality directly. It's like changing the location thinking that you will get away from your problems, but with no regard to the fact that the problems are within, not in the external reality itself. They will begin to pop up again until they are resolved.

[Susan]

can we call a pattern a pattern if it is never the same

No the word pattern is just a label but suggests some symmetry or order, I guess? What is just is. No pattern, no words describe it truly. I get this about universities etc, even the diagnosis of a cold, which is a collection of sensations/symtpoms arising together. I see it intellectually about myself but am not clearly seeing once and for all that I am just thoughts, sensations etc arising and being labelled as 'me'. I keep harping back to last week but want clarity now instead of seeing all this through the veil of me. Self enquiry seems harder this week - just isn't flowing. Before it just seemed to happen without a lot of effort. Do you get the sense I need to apply myself more and make more effort - is that it?

It seems that attention is important. A university needs attention to form out of buildings and people and books and lecture halls etc etc. Without attention (usually by more than one person for some reason) it will not be sustained. I am paying too much attention to thoughts and beliefs about myself. Also, others pay 'me' too much attention. That may not help the deconstruction - is that another cop out?

Yes the sense of familiarity with a thought tends to bring about said conditioning. Or it activates under a specific theme. So how does one get rid of the suffering? (hint: it has to do with the self of you existing and a sense of division)

I do not exist, I do not exist, I do not exist. I am just a label given by thoughts to a arising sensations, thoughts, actions and beliefs. I want the penny to drop...

[zenkitties]

I keep harping back to last week but want clarity now instead of seeing all this through the veil of me. Self enquiry seems harder this week - just isn't flowing. Before it just seemed to happen without a lot of effort. Do you get the sense I need to apply myself more and make more effort - is that it?

I can see the problem. You let expactation in! check this at the door before going forward. You did it without even realizing. You say you can see this intellectually over and over again. That again is just story, just see it this time. It just takes one honest look to see that the body is nothing more than piled on ideas, beliefs, and concepts and be done with it. There is no you deep down in those things.

What your doing right now is this. "I have every evidence that Santa doesn't exist,yet even with the evidence, I still believe hes real."

I am paying too much attention to thoughts and beliefs about myself. Also, others pay 'me' too much attention.

Well alright, so stop paying attention to them then. (thoughts) Can you clarify on the others paying you too much attention. In everyday life, it may be worth your while to not let it "bleed" over if you can help it. It may be challenging but you will thank yourself later. Just remember that everything exhibited on the outside tends to be a reflection of the inside.

I do not exist, I do not exist, I do not exist. I am just a label given by thoughts to a arising sensations, thoughts, actions and beliefs. I want the penny to drop...

This wanting is hindering you from seeing. Drop that expectation. Can you see how that's just a story? Sometimes however a runner instead of stopping and refusing to run one more step and relaxing must run even faster so that he may tire more quickly. This is what seems to be the case right now. ;) Surrender is inevitable.

[Susan]

Can you clarify on the others paying you too much attention

I understand that this issue in relationship with others is a reflection of me but I feel I have to play a role in some of my relationships which doesn't seem to give space for this enquiry. There seems to be alot of investment in me being a certain way (in old family relationships mostly) which adds somehow to identification. It feels risky to allow that role to drop, although I realise that the role may continue after clear seeing. I feel I need alot of space for this enquiry away from these relationships but not sure how possible that is. I can also see that this could be a cop out and perhaps just needs investigation in terms of who I am. Speaking about this and looking at it seems to have already loosened it up.

In terms of expectations, I think I am feeling pressure that we are on page 4 here and time is passing and I'm so slow and such a failure at this process. I know, I know these are beliefs with no meaning but the sense of pressure is not helping here. Goes back to my first post that I don't believe that I will ever see this (I know I never will). There's so many beliefs here that may be getting in the way even if they are without meaning/power in themselves,

This wanting is hindering you from seeing. Drop that expectation. Can you see how that's just a story? Sometimes however a runner instead of stopping and refusing to run one more step and relaxing must run even faster so that he may tire more quickly. This is what seems to be the case right now. ;) Surrender is inevitable.

Are you saying I need to keep running until I exhaust myself? I was rather enjoying the relaxation I was experiencing!

[Susan]

Just a quick additional thought - in terms of relationships, I don't like to disappoint others if they have expectations of me. This is a fear of letting go and the chips falling where they may isn't it? I am fearful of not controlling relationships/what others think of me/how am I with others. Is it all a fear of losing control and that comes up in relationship maybe more than elsewhere? I want to let this go...

[Susan]

Oh B*****, I'm a b***** control freak. 'I' have convinced myself (who have I convinced?!) that I need to be in control to be accepted,belong, loveable, etc etc. I am frightened to let go and 'let God' in my relationships. I will end up alone if I don't manage my relationships. That's a belief - where does its power come from? It feels powerful to 'me'. Need to investigate this one...

[zenkitties]

It feels risky to allow that role to drop, although I realise that the role may continue after clear seeing.

Well firstly, I would like to say thanks for being honest and for sticking with it. A lot of people would of probably given up and went elsewhere already.

Secondly, what's going on IS what it is. There is no need to drop a role, this thing is quite the paradox. I tell you to get rid of everything yet you don't have to drop your roll? Weird right? Let me try and clarify. You lose everything. When I say you lose it, the role may still continue because that's part of what IS too, however SEEING THROUGH the role is what I'm getting at. It doesn't have to be dropped in that sense but seen through. That is to lose everything. Knowing that those roles are... well they are just storys.

Fun stories at that. You just happen to be playing a frustrated story right now haha, don't worry it'll drop away. Just keep looking at the dynamics of their actually not being a you. You don't even need to talk with others from your waking life about this. (I don't commonly talk with my friends about it, it doesn't bode over well with most of them. ;))

You find most people shut you out if you try and bring it up because it challenges every fiber and belief they have about themselves. Just like you're experiencing frustration about this... its very uncomfortable yes? No one said it would be easy but its necessary to find out and get close to how suffering operates.. become comfortable in it, to pass through it.

In terms of expectations, I think I am feeling pressure that we are on page 4 here and time is passing and I'm so slow and such a failure at this process. I know, I know these are beliefs with no meaning but the sense of pressure is not helping here. Goes back to my first post that I don't believe that I will ever see this (I know I never will). There's so many beliefs here that may be getting in the way even if they are without meaning/power in themselves.

Please don't feel pressure, are you afraid I will leave you as a hopeless case? I've grown much compassion for you at this point. I know you've seen it, you just haven't realized it yet for yourself.

Are you saying I need to keep running until I exhaust myself? I was rather enjoying the relaxation I was experiencing!

Well of course that's what im saying. I wouldn't short change you on honesty. relaxation is nice, but progress isn't often done in relaxation, not at this seeing anyway haha. In my experience, this part of seeing is very maddening, frustrating and then.. pop... nothing. All is lifted. So yes keep running and keep seeing how a you cannot exist in this experience because well... it doesn't.

Looking at how the human organism, is clean slate when it is born, and then concepts begin to mold it when it can start to intake information from its parents. When it gets down that it "IS" something it begins the baseline of the "program" or the forming of the rubber band ball. IT looks and feels solid as a self, but that doesn't make it real. Just like the bell is not in the sound of a bell. or just like the car is not a car but a bunch of joint parts put together in a way that operates a certain way because of its construction.

I am fearful of not controlling relationships/what others think of me/how am I with others. Is it all a fear of losing control and that comes up in relationship maybe more than elsewhere? I want to let this go...

I'm beginning to see my own themes in your writing. Control is a pretty strong last soldier isn't it? I could probably say you're traveling the dark night right now. Control was one of my biggest things as well. How did I navigate it...? Well lets just say I didn't, it wrecked me and then I got back up and picked up what was left. However this is not how everyone is, you can choose to let it bleed into your life by trying to control everything and resisting or you can just say. Fuck it. and let it go. (I know easier said than done haha)

Oh B*****, I'm a b***** control freak. 'I' have convinced myself (who have I convinced?!) that I need to be in control to be accepted,belong, loveable, etc etc. I am frightened to let go and 'let God' in my relationships. I will end up alone if I don't manage my relationships. That's a belief - where does its power come from? It feels powerful to 'me'. Need to investigate this one...

I'm really glad you see this, it looks like you've found a belief that is really holding you in place. That is really showing you how suffering operates. Its very dualistic. It's the "I love you but if you don't give me what i expect or my idea of you, then I will withhold my own happiness." Holding that imaginary gun to your own head.

What is frigthening about letting God into your relationships? And is that true, that if you don't manage your relationships that all will go down the tubes? I mean something has been managing such beautiful relationships, it surely wasnt you even if you logically defined it as you controlling it.

Its power comes from YOU, those ideas which are believed about what a relationships SHOULD be like rather than what they are. Relating has nothing to do with two individuals, it just has to do with relating from life to life. Its like Gods love song to itself. Do you ever notice how when you're so in love with someone that when looking back you say, "man i was so absorbed in that that I didn't even realize alot of this stuff." That's because you were missing, and love was able to manifest when it was suppose to naturally, with no control from a YOU.

Just keep unraveling that rubber band ball Susan. No you, keep looking. See how love goes beyond YOU, it's always there. Love is self sustaining, it does not dissipate. relax into the frustration, control, and just let it be there. Lean into it and observe it with fascination.

Who is the one controling?