In search of light: Who decides to action

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

It’s an everyday practice not to get caught up in the self but there definitely is some improvement...

Just to make something clear:
The thoughts that pop up (and aren’t mine) can lead to another decision, which is only mine in thought perception?

In everyday life I can see thoughts popping up randomly and are a trigger for actions.
There is this story in my head that thoughts are just chatter, that I should block them out and they have no influence on actions. That this is the illusion to see through / level to reach and I’m not here

There is some confusion around this, can you explain some more around this and move on?

Have a beautiful day Ron!
Joran

[Ronaldo]

Hi Joran,

Just to make something clear:
The thoughts that pop up (and aren’t mine) can lead to another decision, which is only mine in thought perception?

You know we answer questions with questions :) Because an answer is just on a thought level, so look for yourself (yes, you already have all the tools and do it well):

- Are any thoughts yours? And what exactly is "yours" (mine) here?
- What exactly is a decision?
- What is "intent"?
- Finally, does an action require a thought?
When an action seems to be triggered by a thought "I need to go to work now" - is the thought the cause of action? Can a link be found in direct experience?

In everyday life I can see thoughts popping up randomly and are a trigger for actions.
There is this story in my head that thoughts are just chatter, that I should block them out and they have no influence on actions. That this is the illusion to see through / level to reach and I’m not here

The only real question to be asked here is - who wants to ignore and block thoughts?
Another thought! And you've been had once again by that illusion of self :)

Don't worry, there will be continuous flip-flopping between seeing and not seeing.
So I will also answer from the perspective of the story.
As above, are thoughts triggers for action?
- doesn't most action clearly happen without thought?
- sometimes a though has a future tag - "I need to do go to the gym", does that always cause action? Wouldn't that be nice :)
- some thought seem to pack more decisive action, an intension, "go now!" - sometimes you will..
Often it's really hard to see the action without the thought, but we need evidence, not more thought explanation which are seen to be the creators of illusion.

You can't block thoughts, it's pointless to try, and there's no need to. Thoughts aren't the enemy, they weave a story about what is experienced and what takes place, so what? You've seen it in action.

Hope this helps
Ron

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

Quick and clear reply!

You know we answer questions with questions :) Because an answer is just on a thought level, so look for yourself (yes, you already have all the tools and do it well):

Legend! I see this is the approach ;-)

- Are any thoughts yours? And what exactly is "yours" (mine) here?

No thoughts are not mine. There is no one who owns them or direct them, they just pop up.

- What exactly is a decision?

An action prepared by thoughts.

- What is "intent"?

The determination to do something

- Finally, does an action require a thought?

No it doesn’t require one. It can happen that before an action there are thoughts about this action.

When an action seems to be triggered by a thought "I need to go to work now" - is the thought the cause of action? Can a link be found in direct experience?

No the action just is, no one is doing it.
The thought just is, they pop up out of nowhere and there isnt anyone controlling them.

In everyday life I can see thoughts popping up randomly and are a trigger for actions.
There is this story in my head that thoughts are just chatter, that I should block them out and they have no influence on actions. That this is the illusion to see through / level to reach and I’m not here

The only real question to be asked here is - who wants to ignore and block thoughts?

No one can.

Another thought! And you've been had once again by that illusion of self :)

Grrrr! There only is a thought of someone who can ignore and block thoughts. So the same for the link between thoughts and actions. It can only be there in thoughts because it can’t be perceived that there is a link between thoughts and actions.

Don't worry, there will be continuous flip-flopping between seeing and not seeing.
So I will also answer from the perspective of the story.
As above, are thoughts triggers for action?

In thoughts there is. Without thoughts there just is thinking with no control and there is action with no control.

- doesn't most action clearly happen without thought?

Yes it does, driving a car, taking a shower.

- sometimes a though has a future tag - "I need to do go to the gym", does that always cause action? Wouldn't that be nice :)

No it is just a thought. It doesnt always cause action

- some thought seem to pack more decisive action, an intension, "go now!" - sometimes you will..

Often it's really hard to see the action without the thought, but we need evidence, not more thought explanation which are seen to be the creators of illusion.

True. After these questions its more clear that the only way to link thoughts to action is in thought perception. There isnt any evidence for this.

You can't block thoughts, it's pointless to try, and there's no need to. Thoughts aren't the enemy, they weave a story about what is experienced and what takes place, so what? You've seen it in action.

This helps a lot. The trick of the thought perception is a tough (what in a name) one but the questions really help!

Thanks Ron, I’m ready for the emotions now.

[Ronaldo]

I want to make sure you're not missing something important.

R: The only real question to be asked here is - who wants to ignore and block thoughts?

J: No one can

No one can, right. But is there someone who wants?
The one who wants the thoughts to end, to go away, who is that entity?

[Ronaldo]

And one more:

- What exactly is a decision?

An action prepared by thoughts.

- What is "intent"?

The determination to do something

Aren't both intent and decision nothing but thoughts?
Can you find intention or decision anywhere but in thoughts?

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

I want to make sure you're not missing something important.
R: The only real question to be asked here is - who wants to ignore and block thoughts?
J: No one can
No one can, right. But is there someone who wants?

There is no one there to ignore and block thoughts. Only thought perception of a me who thinks he should be without thoughts.

The one who wants the thoughts to end, to go away, who is that entity?

There is no entity. There are thought perceptions about an entity but nothing can’t be seen that really is.

And one more:

- What exactly is a decision?
An action prepared by thoughts.
- What is "intent"?
The determination to do something

Aren't both intent and decision nothing but thoughts?

True, it only exists in thoughts. It is a tricky one because thoughts about thoughts linking to action is perceived by thoughts. But a direct link can’t be made, only the label afterwards.

Can you find intention or decision anywhere but in thoughts?

No only in thoughts.
Example of this mornings intention. Thoughts: I shouldn’t do this. Action: I did it. Decision: I made up in thoughts afterwards

Thanks for checking, makes even more sense now.

[Ronaldo]

I like to be thorough, so let's just take another look at choice. Don't rush, pay close attention, you may find interesting things. Look carefully, check if emotions arise besides thoughts.

Please put some chocolate/cake (or something you like, but think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate (or whatever).
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons?
– look very carefully

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

The enthusiasm gets bigger so there is another fast reply.

I like to be thorough, so let's just take another look at choice. Don't rush, pay close attention, you may find interesting things. Look carefully, check if emotions arise besides thoughts.

Thanks for this. There are thoughts about understanding but its nice to be thorough. We have time.

Please put some chocolate/cake (or something you like, but think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate (or whatever).
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?

It is just thoughts about the eating of the chocolate.

Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons?
– look very carefully

There are thoughts about pros and cons. And there are thoughts about a decision to be made. But no ownership of those thoughts, they just come and go.

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

There is the decision to eat it. And a second later a thought pops up it is because ill have to wait some longer for dinner so it is okay to do it.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought appear?

That thought just pops up out of nowhere. There is no ownership it just follows the action.

Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?

It is just action and decision. No one made it happen.

How exactly the decision is made?

Hard to say, it is the decision just made. I can’t say it really came from thoughts right now, no direct evidence. This morning there where more thoughts about a decision being made from an evaluation of thoughts but this is not my experience right now.
So where does it come from? It just is..

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

No one, there just was the action of eating the chocolate.

Regards, Joran

[Ronaldo]

Next time when you want to eat something yummy, deprive yourself and do the same thing ;-)

[Joranoud]

Who is there to tell Ron? :-)

[Joranoud]

Morning Ron,

There was a big wave of resistance this morning.

It started with an insight. This morning I woke up and had a lot of thoughts about going out of bed. But I didn’t. More thoughts and no action. And suddenly there was action, how is it that one thought would lead to action and another one don’t. There doesn’t seem to be any control.

Later on the resistance came. When sitting in meditation there where thoughts about really having no influence on my life at all. That the perceived me that had a journey to make in this world that works on his flaws and tries do be a better person doesnt exist. That there is no me so he can’t make choices and he doesnt control where he is going. That there isnt any control at all. There I was being scared, sceptic and thinking I could never get there. Or in other perspective: These thoughts around this are perceived as scary and such a big game changer.

Back to the practice. Okay these are just thoughts popping up. Again, no control over them. Only the thoughts that label me make it scary. The scary thoughts just are. It only is a problem when the perceived I doesn’t have any control and influence. Paradox.

It are just thoughts but they are still disturbing. To whom? Yes to me again, only in the thoughts of me they are disturbing.

And is it true that the lack of control and influence would be a problem. Would it really change the decisions made when there’s no belief that they are mine? Hard to say, maybe not. At least there would be less identification when it doesn’t (and does) turn out the way..... Yes more thoughts about an I that needs to go some way. It just turns a way and this would only be perceived right or wrong by an imaginary I. Without the perceived I there just is.

There is seeing this morning. When seeing my thoughts/actions in bed and by evaluating morning thoughts. But what a strong pitfall, it seems to be so easy to get lost in thought constructs. Who gets lost? There are so much thoughts about the perceived I that validate more thoughts about the existence of the I. Thoughts can be a loop starter for the perceived I.

There is improvement and time for more practice. I hope this gives a little insight in where I am right now.

[Joranoud]

Another follow-up:
When walking outside there where more thoughts, not surprising.
This mornings example about thoughts about stepping out of bed didn’t all lead to going out of bed. Otherwise it would have happened earlier.
Seeing right now. When there are thoughts about raising my hand, the next action can be raising the hand, not necessarily. I ended up raising my hand now. Would there been raising my hand without thoughts about it... No, why would someone raise his hand when writing a text!
So as far as I can see right now: Thoughts can lead to action. Again, not necessarily.

With practice I have seen that the thoughts can’t be controlled.
And I see that the only way the action can be mine is through a thought construct, the thoughts make it sound like this was a decision of the imagined me afterwards
So with seeing I can tell that the thoughts that aren’t mine (and can’t be controlled) can lead to a decision which is only mine by a thought construct.
So there was no me to control the thoughts about raising the hand. It ended up by a hand that was risen and this only belongs to me trough a thought construct, something like I raised my hand because I wanted to validate this example.

A lot of thoughts trying to make sense out of it, trying to shine some light with seeing. Hope it makes any sense...

Regards!
Joran

[Ronaldo]

Hi Joran,
I'm just starting my workday, and will not reply till I'm off (I need to stop doing that...).
Thoughts are coming up with stories and explanation how to make sense out of this new seeing, but they can't.
Trying to figure out how things work is fantastic, but you do it with just curiosity. I know exactly what you mean, sometimes thought does seem to lead to a future action, ok, but it's circumstantial it's not clear at all, there's no link found, ever.
We'll talk about time soon - but you can quickly get this, is there time outside of thought?
Isn't it always ever just this now?
trying to explain cause and effect without time is - what? meaningless...
So this is another paradox and no amount of thinking will resolve it, remember the fractal of thoughts? Snap out!

Resistance is also nothing but thoughts, confusion is nothing but thoughts.
What does it mean to believe a thought story?
Is there someone believing?

When the imagined experience is taking place, it may leave no room for anything else - there's full zoom-in.
Does that seem like a closer description?

dammit, I just replied :)
Ron

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

I'm just starting my workday, and will not reply till I'm off (I need to stop doing that...).

dammit, I just replied :)

Hahaha that didn’t work out. Intention, thoughts ;-) It keeps me busy all day and keep on crossing my work.
Speaking of work, today was a beautiful practice not to identify with me. There really is some improvement there.

Thoughts are coming up with stories and explanation how to make sense out of this new seeing, but they can't.
Trying to figure out how things work is fantastic, but you do it with just curiosity. I know exactly what you mean, sometimes thought does seem to lead to a future action, ok, but it's circumstantial it's not clear at all, there's no link found, ever.
We'll talk about time soon - but you can quickly get this, is there time outside of thought?
Isn't it always ever just this now?

No, without thoughts there isn’t any time and only the eternal now. Beautiful moments ;-)

trying to explain cause

and effect without time is - what? meaningless...
So this is another paradox and no amount of thinking will resolve it, remember the fractal of thoughts? Snap out!

With thoughts there never will be a way out of thoughts. So no possibility to grasp this thought wise. I’ll keep on seeing and practice seeing thoughts.

Resistance is also nothing but thoughts, confusion is nothing but thoughts.
What does it mean to believe a thought story?
Is there someone believing?

Believing in a thought story means to get lost into thoughts. No one is believing there are just more thoughts about thoughts.

When the imagined experience is taking place, it may leave no room for anything else - there's full zoom-in.
Does that seem like a closer description?

Yes the thought story can really do this. It’s funny because when I write it down and sit down I can see the thoughts leading to more thoughts and no do-er. And there an be a full zoom-in into experience where the imagined I can’t get out. Those moments are the most interesting to practice.

dammit, I just replied :)

Thanks brother, like I said no rush. On this side of the ocean there are attempts to see and probably more than enough thoughts to observe.

Have a beautiful day!
Joran

[Ronaldo]

Hi Joran,
You seem to be doing really well, I'm not sure what happened with that email or note to the ex GF, but here is an opportunity to use this or other deep emotions to reveal something about how they works. Fascinating stuff.

Please find a quiet time in your day where you will not be disturbed, and just relax and breath for a while.

- Next bring up a thought that causes you some mild sadness or stress, longing, loneliness, something with enough intensity but also something you can handle (no traumas at this point).

- Notice that the thought seem to raise a body sensation.
- locate that sensation and find the tag, e.g. “contraction in my chest” or “tensing of my forehead”, "clenching of my heart"
- The normal reaction is to try to run away from the sensation and the thought, but don't. Drop thought that will go into analysis, and just keep focusing on the sensation.
- Now drop the tag, and just focus on the sensation, bring up the thought as needed to keep the sensation happening (keep feeding that emotion).
- look at this sensation, try to feel it fully, look at it as if it was a rare type of butterfly, you are only examining it by looking, trying to sense it fully... curiosity is your friend! What is this sensation made of? If you ignore the tag "I don't like it", "it hurts", "it's in my throat/chest/whatever" - just go to the sensation and let it be! It wants to be felt and pass through..
- Is there anything more to this fear/sadness/stress than the thoughts and the sensations? Can you stay with it?


Please describe the sensation, where it was felt, how it felt, and what you found.

Try to repeat it again, what happens?

Regards
Ron