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Tan
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Re: Hello

Postby Tan » Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:09 am

Watch out for the story, sure there will be thoughts "I am thinking about this right now" but is there a thinker?
Whenever I get deep in thought, in that moment, the thoughts feel real and it seems as if it comes from me. But when I observe and detach, it fades away, and becomes smoke. This is really apparent when I listen to music, all sorts of thoughts come bustling in, and it seems as though it comes from me, yet whenever I notice it, they're gone.

So when I'm in swallowed in thoughts, there seems to be a thinker. But when I detach, the thoughts seem to have come from nowhere.

Going a bit further, it seems that the thinker is a product of thought?

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Jadzia
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Re: Hello

Postby Jadzia » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:55 am

Going a bit further, it seems that the thinker is a product of thought?
Yes. :-)
The big weaver thoughts, the most elaborate story.

Same procedure:
What about a chooser or decider called Arthur?
Did Arthur ever choose something or decided on something?

Love,
Jadzia

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Tan
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Re: Hello

Postby Tan » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:11 pm

In the same way that the thinker is a product of thoughts, the decider called Arthur is as well.

This kind of weirds me out a bit. Since there's no decider, and just decisions, is it just all a happening? Cause and effect? Like me not succumbing to cigarette cravings isn't of my own volition but rather a happening? Is there even space for fortitude and iron will in this investigation? How do they come into play here?

When I'm too lazy to workout, I just turn off the brain and start doing it. How does that work?

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Jadzia
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Re: Hello

Postby Jadzia » Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:49 pm

Yes, the idea that A is decider and chooser just appear in the story, are something the character Arthur is doing.
Since there's no decider, and just decisions, is it just all a happening? Cause and effect?
Observe!
Check all decisions and choices. Oh, thoughts will go to full length why A is making a decision or why he is choosing something.
Can you find in a decision the decider?
Or in a choice the chooser?
Or is all you find a beautifully tightly woven story, meaning thoughts explaining.

Cause and effect could they be proven in your direct experience in the moment or is this another amazing offer of an explanation.

Just take a bit of time and have a look. Each time a fresh look, don't rely on memory.
Share what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

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Tan
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Re: Hello

Postby Tan » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:26 am

The chooser doesn't choose. Or rather there is no chooser, just choices. It just happens.

The thoughts make sense of it all.

Before every action, thoughts lay out the groundwork for the story in real time. Makes someone think they're actually doing it on their own.

And I'm aware of my thoughts right now, and what I'm typing. But it's just happening.

On a sidenote though, I do feel as though this whole process is not as intense as before? Still being aware of thoughts and all but it's not as disorientating.

I still do emotional work when they pop up. But most of the time, whenever I catch myself being drowned in thoughts, there's emptiness and calm, and makes me feel as though I'm doing it all wrong.

Like you said though, patience is key. So I'm trying not to stress about it. It's just that the character is so used to patterns of quick short burst so it makes him feel as though he's doing it wrong or he's straying from the path.

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Jadzia
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Re: Hello

Postby Jadzia » Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:49 am

But most of the time, whenever I catch myself being drowned in thoughts, there's emptiness and calm, and makes me feel as though I'm doing it all wrong.
Arthur!!!! :-)
Your doing wonderfully.
You had a sharp and keen look at the self thingy and it toppled. If it happens that swiftly it can be quite intense afterwards.
The questions you are just answering are for helping the whole new overview to sink in, check that really everything is clear and get you into calmer waters. Okay?
It's just that the character is so used to patterns of quick short burst so it makes him feel as though he's doing it wrong or he's straying from the path.
This is a thought pattern, quiet and calm is labeled as "here is something wrong"
Notice this and walk on.
A lot of patterns will show, some you will recognize immediately as habitual pattern, sometimes it may take a bit. All is well.

Is emptyness and calm worrying or something you are not so used to?

Here are two more ideas about the character Arthur:
The idea of Arthur being the experiencer of life
The idea of Arthur being lifes manager

Lets look at the first one - look at something, take the something in, and while doing so:
Is Arthur the one seeing the something or is seeing happening?

The second one - you already answered it earlier with the picture of an empty boat no on who steers it, but look again.
Is there any way in which the Arthur can influence what happens?

Love,
Jadzia

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Tan
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Re: Hello

Postby Tan » Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:52 am

Is emptyness and calm worrying or something you are not so used to?
There's fear there now that you bring it up. Fear that maybe I'm not doing enough. Traced it back, sat with it, didn't take me long. Concluded that it stems from my parents always wanting me to be active, to always be doing things - an overbearing pressure.

Packaged with it all is a fear of disappointment - stemming from them as well - specifically fear that I'll be disappointing you, me, and my friend that showed me this site. I guess thoughts latch onto activity or movement or disorientation a sense of progression, of change, so when things are calm and empty, thoughts patch it up to complacency. And then from there, a fear of the rock rolling back down the hill.
Lets look at the first one - look at something, take the something in, and while doing so:
Is Arthur the one seeing the something or is seeing happening?
I was walking just now and there was a sense of stillness, of watching a movie. It's kind of annoying though actually since everytime something like that happens, thoughts jump up to start weaving a post for you haha. I just kind of look at it as that though, just thoughts. It seems a bit easier now actually. Some thoughts aren't that easy to detach still but patience is key.

Seems to be that both is applicable? As though I'm both the audience and the actor to a film. An ebb and flow between the two.
The second one - you already answered it earlier with the picture of an empty boat no on who steers it, but look again.
Is there any way in which the Arthur can influence what happens?
Following the film analogy, the thoughts are the script. But now that a layer has been peeled, it's more of an interactive film? As in, the audience knows it's just a script now and since it's both the actor and the audience, it's no longer tethered to its linearity.

So this is actually pretty cool. Since the character Arthur knows he's merely that - a character/an actor - the script changes - i.e. the thoughts that appear - to complement or to make sense of the newfound perspective? With that, there is a subtle influence the character Arthur can apply. Like you said at the very beginning, there's a change and no change at the same time. Now that the character knows it's a script he's not bound to, it's easier to not be so overwhelmed by what the script brings, yet he still plays along.

In essence, there's only a subtle influence on what Arthur can bring. And this was only possible due to seeing how thoughts aren't meant to be followed or aren't who he is. It's the knowledge of it that can change the character.

There's no radical shift, no doer still, no experiencer, no chooser, but with the knowledge, it changes the choices, the happenings, the experiences.

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Jadzia
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Re: Hello

Postby Jadzia » Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:21 am

Yeah, there is story at play. Allow the fear. Whenever feelings of "This might not be enough" appear, see if fear is behind it and invite it, let it expand to the point where it will poof! disapear. With this kind of fear, since it is well established it might take a bit.
As though I'm both the audience and the actor to a film
If we stick to this analogy, audience, actor, film would be the same, in some way it is everything.
There's no radical shift, no doer still, no experiencer, no chooser, but with the knowledge, it changes the choices, the happenings, the experiences.
Is it really the knowledge changing the choices? Knowledge becomes thoughts, thoughts can't do anything, they do pretend yes, but they can't.
What about the clearing away of beliefs, that creates freedom, a chance to allow life to flow freely?
Does that make sense for you?

What about it: Are you 100% sure that you've experienced that Arthur isn't an entity, the captain of the ship, the experiencer, the thinker, the doer, the decider or chooser?
What about responsibility? Does this character A. can be made responsible for what happens?

Love,
Jadzia

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Tan
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Re: Hello

Postby Tan » Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:52 am

What about the clearing away of beliefs, that creates freedom, a chance to allow life to flow freely?
Does that make sense for you?
Yes! That's what I was trying to get at. The clearing away of beliefs. But isn't the only reason for the beliefs to be uprooted is due to the knowledge imparted?
Are you 100% sure that you've experienced that Arthur isn't an entity, the captain of the ship, the experiencer, the thinker, the doer, the decider or chooser?
No. And there's the fear there as well. There are doubts that say "Do I actually feel it?" Because I know there's no one there. It's weird to look at myself in the mirror, where I once thought there was some entity behind the eyes. But there's the bugging doubt by the periphery that asks if I actually, 100%, "feel" it.

There are moments yes. But thoughts tend to swallow whole and label an "I" onto everything.
What about responsibility? Does this character A. can be made responsible for what happens?
Trying not to solve this intellectually. Feeling and sensation both lean towards "yes, he is responsible for what happens."

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Jadzia
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Re: Hello

Postby Jadzia » Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:30 am

But isn't the only reason for the beliefs to be uprooted is due to the knowledge imparted?
It sure would be if there would be cause and effect.....can you find something like cause and effect when you look directly and don't rely on what thoughts tell you?
In this case cause and effect would mean that one could find a connection between beliefs, which happen in thoughts, and knowledge, which is memory/thought. Here the question would be does one thought know of the other, are thoughts connected in some way?
Have a look.
No. And there's the fear there as well. There are doubts that say "Do I actually feel it?" Because I know there's no one there. It's weird to look at myself in the mirror, where I once thought there was some entity behind the eyes. But there's the bugging doubt by the periphery that asks if I actually, 100%, "feel" it.
This is ok right now and might need more sinking in to become the new normal.
And you might like to look if there are thoughts about being worthy of this.
Feeling and sensation both lean towards "yes, he is responsible for what happens."
Here it needs looking a bit deeper.
Feeling: what feeling? Is it a physical sensation, aka feeling, or is it a thought "I feel that it is so and so"?
Sensation: Is there any physical sensation which points to A being responsible for what happens?
There will be lots of thoughts talking about this, yeah sure, that is what the story is about - A as the doer, maker of things, the one who makes things happen.
But do you find more than thoughts which might point to A. being what thoughts claim he is?

Love,
Jadzia

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Tan
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Re: Hello

Postby Tan » Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:25 am

Here the question would be does one thought know of the other, are thoughts connected in some way?
Have a look.
Yes. Thoughts seem to act as nodes or gears of a clock. Whenever I get deep in thought, they link from one thought to another. I guess it's why it's so easy to get lost in them cause they just keep connecting and connecting, like dominoes.
Here it needs looking a bit deeper.
Feeling: what feeling? Is it a physical sensation, aka feeling, or is it a thought "I feel that it is so and so"?
Sensation: Is there any physical sensation which points to A being responsible for what happens?
There will be lots of thoughts talking about this, yeah sure, that is what the story is about - A as the doer, maker of things, the one who makes things happen.
It was both, a thought and a subtle sensation right where the heart's at. The belief of always being accountable of one's actions is deeply rooted inside. The character doesn't like to make excuses or make false promises - responsibility and competence is just something he leans towards to heavily.
But do you find more than thoughts which might point to A. being what thoughts claim he is?
Writing poetry and playing guitar are a substantial amount of evidence. Whenever I reread them or listen to recordings, it's a bit eerie, like it was from somewhere else but not inherently Arthur. Even this whole conversation, the posts before, all contradict what thoughts claim Arthur is.

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Jadzia
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Re: Hello

Postby Jadzia » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:46 am

Yes. Thoughts seem to act as nodes or gears of a clock. Whenever I get deep in thought, they link from one thought to another. I guess it's why it's so easy to get lost in them cause they just keep connecting and connecting, like dominoes.
Time for a real close look.
Are thougths really linked to each other or are there just thoughts 'telling' it is so? Thougths are sneaky little fellas.
Go have a look. If there is a link you should be able to find it.

And yes, the believe in the link makes the story more convincing because it seems to create a story which started somewhere and goes on. The story seems to be seamless, but is it?
Movement involves the idea of time, right?
Like moving in time: past, present/now, future?
For this to be more than thoughts construct one should be able to experience in ones direct experience the moving of the now in time, right? Can one experience it?
Is there really one event following the other, like one thought following another, like action following each other? In the direct epxerience right now?
Where does the now start and where does it end?
The belief of always being accountable of one's actions is deeply rooted inside. The character doesn't like to make excuses or make false promises - responsibility and competence is just something he leans towards to heavily.
Nothing wrong with that. It is belief, it is part of the story about Arthur. That is where it is found.
If A. isn't the captain of the ship and life just happens - where do you find the responsibility?

Love,
Jadzia

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Tan
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Re: Hello

Postby Tan » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:17 am

Are thougths really linked to each other or are there just thoughts 'telling' it is so? Thougths are sneaky little fellas.
Go have a look. If there is a link you should be able to find it.
Things got kind of weird. I sat and observed. I was looking at my hands, unlabeled. Felt nauseating. You're right. Thoughts are telling that there's a link but there's none. They just happen.
And yes, the believe in the link makes the story more convincing because it seems to create a story which started somewhere and goes on. The story seems to be seamless, but is it?
Movement involves the idea of time, right?
Like moving in time: past, present/now, future?
For this to be more than thoughts construct one should be able to experience in ones direct experience the moving of the now in time, right? Can one experience it?
Is there really one event following the other, like one thought following another, like action following each other? In the direct epxerience right now?
Where does the now start and where does it end?
No we can't experience the moving of the now in time. It's always now. It's always present. There is no beginning or end. No separation at all. Just a present moment.
If A. isn't the captain of the ship and life just happens - where do you find the responsibility?
There's no responsibility. It was really difficult to type it out. At first, there was a sense of weight that was lifted, then from the emptiness, sadness. I don't know. Responsibility was really infused in the belief system, so this challenges it heavily. There's anger here too, a sort of angsty rebellious defiance against the evidence. Thoughts say "I don't like it", which the character caught, the "I" is jarring.

From here, there's fear from being complacent. If there's no responsibility, then what happens now? How do you see things? Is this merely a way to not be bogged down by stories from the past? The character really doesn't like this. This lack of responsibility, of accountability.

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Tan
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Re: Hello

Postby Tan » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:22 am

Sat with the anger for a bit. The reason for it is due to seeing responsibility as some noble quality? People owning up to their actions, their faults, their flaws, and then finding solutions to at the very least dull the blows is a good quality to have. So when there's no responsibility, complacency grows inbetween the cracks. There's a great dislike against people that make excuses or come late or make false promises. How does one live now? When there is no self, there is no free will in essence, then from there, no responsibility?

What does the belief come to now?

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Jadzia
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Re: Hello

Postby Jadzia » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:53 am

Well Done!! You had a good look.

Thoughts aren't linked, though they talk about it.
Time is a construct. There is just Now, this very moment. Difficult to digest but there will be more learning about this one day and then it will really sink in.
How does one live now? When there is no self, there is no free will in essence, then from there, no responsibility?/quote]
Responsibilty is quite a hard cracker, and like with time it needs some sinking in and more weakening of the ideas connected to self to be really got.
Maybe it helps you to feel a bit better: Arthurs personality won't disappear, it is a part of the story, whatever is important right now, will still be important. If acting in a responsible way was the modus up to now, it will go on....in the no-time ;-)....
So Arthur is not the entity controlling life since life is just happening, life-ing, he is only responsible in the story and the story goes on. Thing is what you are is not Arthur.

Concerning guilt, this is a good emotion to work with and finally let go.
Many of us are guilt trained, feeling guilt not only as a stop sign when we act in an harming ways towards life/others, but we are trained to feel guilty when we for example don't fullfill expectations of others or others make us responsible for what they feel and so on.
And this runs deeper. Look at experiences you had in your life:
Are they just experiences or are they good or bad experiences?
What informs if something is good or bad? How is it learned? Does it always make sense?
Look in a very gentle way and full of self compassion .... these topics can be like mine fields. :-)


Love,
Jadzia


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