Just a story

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Pål.

would you give it another try please?

Ok. Well, cause and effect is a simplistic notion. Rather than believe that a happening is the result of a single cause, this story suggests that any happening is a culmination of a myriad of conditions. i call them necessary conditions.
If any of those conditions is examined, it becomes immediately obvious that it also has many conditions necessary to exist. ..and of course, each of those conditions have necessary conditions.
Follow any condition back and there is no end. It may be an expression of the butterfly effect. For example, it would have only taken a simple accident that removed my great, great, great... grandfather, back in the stone age from becoming my ancestor, and i wouldn't even be here. ..or even less obvious, but just as pernicious, if that butterfly in the Amazon, a thousand years ago had flapped its wings a minute later, then things would be different now.
Absolutely everything that has ever happened in all of existence, since the beginning (if there was one) had to happen exactly as it did, when it did, for things to be as they are (NOW). If one microbe was different, anywhere, anytime, then THIS would be different.

It's more interesting to listen to what they have to say instead.

Yes, yes. The mystery becomes fascinating when we don't disguise it with our own opinion (story) Even a 'simple' blade of grass becomes awe inspiring.

Pål, What we usually do at this stage of the process is to ask some final questions that I will show to other guides to see if there is anything that we might have missed and that my guiding was clear. Other guides may or may not have further questions for you.

As you might guess, this is not the end at all, it is an early step in a life-long deepening. ..and i am here to discuss anything at any time.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialog?

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen?
How does it work?
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.


6) Anything to add?

with love

vince

[MilkRed]

Follow any condition back and there is no end. It may be an expression of the butterfly effect.

Yes yes, now I understand. But I see an even bigger beauty here: the big bang, where universe was condensed to an infinitesimal point and time started. Which leads to that time is inherently to that external world (described by science), but not existent in the real world. Wow!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

Not that I can see or otherwise sense. There was never.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

There is only... "this" (wich doesn't make sense in writing, not in speaking either).

What "I" or "me" is is ungraspeable. To be able to be conzeptualized, referred to or spoken about it has no option other than to collapse into a narrative, and I call that story "I", but the narrative has no bearing really. It starts from nothing (over and over again) into a thought, mixing with other thoughts, into assumptions and manifests as beleifs (thoughts mistaken for something we tend to call truth). It (the illusion) tricks into beliving to be an apparent body ("my body") as seen from first person view, the appearing thoughts (called "the past"/"my history"), and the experienced sensations (emotions, sensory inputs).

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialog?

It feels like "wow!!!". It's purely astonishing. It stops the world. The difference is that there is now a trust in it. That the "I-story" has surrendered for it.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

* vince pointing out that the lenient story was a story too
* vince asking the question if it was a matter of acceptance
* realizing that the "horrible news" on the radio was simply just not true

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen?

Decision: decisions happen and what appears goes that way
intention: really the same mechanism as decision, at an earlier stage
free will: who's free will? as above, or let's just call "this": free will
choice: identifcal to decision

Nothing happens. The illusion of "happen" occurs when "this" is compared to the thought of what was. But it's really too late. It's already a story. That story looks like "happen".

control: when what seemingly happens seems to go along well with the story of the future. We call it control, but it's an illusion too.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

What is responsibility? If responsibility would be a task that's given to me by someone or even God we run into a number of problems related to above:
* who is 'somone' but a story?
* who is God, or Universe, but a story?
* 'task' implies getting from here to there, which is still nothing but a story that can be belieived or not.
* I ultimately didn't hear this responsibility being assigned to "me" anywhere, from anyone or anything
It just doesn't work. There obviously is no responsibity.

On the contrary, of course if the story of responsibility goes into a belief it can get stressful and separation is experienced. Or conciously playing along with the story of responsibility it can be great fun. (Which happened today, having a small "crisis" at work. Then I, being a leader in my role, can act accordingly, underlining the seriousness and need for focus. But with great joy and fascination, feeling connected with my team mates, and experiencing zero stress).

6) Anything to add?

No.



in awe,
Pål

[MilkRed]

6) Anything to add?

Actually yes: how do you respond if I say that you don’t exist?

[vinceschubert]

Hi Pål.
A guide, Divya has a follow-up question for you.

On the contrary, of course if the story of responsibility goes into a belief it can get stressful and separation is experienced. Or conciously playing along with the story of responsibility it can be great fun.

The question ... is - "Can you choose to consciously play along with the story of responsibility?

how do you respond if I say that you don’t exist?

Ha ha, (first response)
Second response is "Of course you're right. What actually exists is a mystery. That "you" that 'you' refer to, is different depending on perception. Pål's perception elicits a different experience to that mystery than vince's. Neither of these refers to a separate entity. "you" is a linguistic and social convention to facilitate communication.

with love

vince

[MilkRed]

Ha ha, (first response)

The reason I asked this question is because in the middle of all this "waking-up" I'm passing through right now I fully see that I'm living in a dream (and then falling back into the dream at times too), and it came out of my mouth to my girlfriend (just after having sex): "you are wonderful, it's too bad you are not real". She is kind of spiritually inclined so she took it fairly well, but it struck me the next day (yesterday) how rude a comment it was or at least could be (and I later apologized). And it puzzles me (like a "mystery" as you put it) how the apparent "me" and the apparent "others" (like her, or you) fit in in "this". These characters in the dream (other people) cannot be so easily dismissed as unimportant, even though they appear in "only a dream".

Can you choose to consciously play along with the story of responsibility?

No, only see that it happens and surrender into it. But it appears as playful, when there's no resistance.

Pål