Emptiness

[Aragon]

Hi Gerd,

Thanks for your reply.....

I would really encourage you to try and look again at the exercises, and not see them as a one-off activity.

I regularly read parts of the thread again and redo the exercises.

You are not doing yourself any favours by just rereading your thread, and by just redoing the exercises given on your thread…that is not enough. For you, at the moment, everything I have been pointing to seems to all be just a nice idea, because you are not applying the exercises to your every day life. Do you actually want to have the realisation, or you just want to intellectually try and understand? Intellectually understanding is not the key to realisation. It is constantly and consistently seeing that there is no chooser, there is no decision maker, no controller, no thinker, no body, no separate self called ‘me/Gerd’ in your every day life experiences that brings clarity.

Are you doing this?

Please try to bring this inquiry alive in your life.

Can you notice the appearance of the sense of self throughout your day? can you look, even for a few seconds to see what it is that appears as the sense of self?

If the body is not what is aware of sound...what is? Isn't it you (not Gerdself) but you that is the knowing awareness of experience?

Ok., so ‘you’ is the knowing awareness of experience.

Is it? It is really a question for you to ask yourself? You can find sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, thought (words and mental image) - and you can find the knowing of them - and you can see that they are one and the same (there is no dividing line) - can you find anything else at all outside of these things? If yes, point to it? If not, what are you - these things, or something that you cannot find (but just presume to be true)?

And given that there is no dividing line, no distance between the sound (which is known) and you(that which is the knowing of the sound)...is there a you and sound...or are they one and the same thing?

There is only AE of sound. So there is no dividing line between the sound and the knowing awareness of the sound. If we say knowing awareness is ‘you’ then sound and ‘you’ is the same thing. This sounds logical but right now I have no understanding for this.

It is not about understanding. Check again and again with all the senses, where is the dividing line between you and the sense-object, between you and the knowing of the sense-object.... and so on. Can you find it? It is in the looking that the answer lies.

And can you find anything outside of this which you could point to as being 'you'

No, I have no idea what ‘you’ could be.

Again, it is not about having an idea. What do you take yourself to be? If you have an idea you are a body, try and find the body. If you have an idea that you are a mind, try and find the mind. If you have an idea that you are Gerd, try and find Gerd. Be curious. Investigate. What do I take myself to be - is it true or just an idea?

Is knowing separate from the known (sound)?

There is only one experience so knowing and known go together.

This sounds to me like an intellectual answer based on deduced logic and not a seeing, because you are thinking your answers and not actually LOOKING. It is through your responses that it can be seen whether or not you are actually looking or you are just applying thinking. There is only so many ways to point to something, but if you aren’t actually willing to look, then there is nowhere else to go with this.

So find a sound that you can listen to…one that won’t stop. Be it a ticking clock, some music, constant sound of traffic...whatever.

Can a sound be known without the knowing of it?

Is there two experiences here? Is there awareness AND sound, or when you actually sit and listen and you try and find where awareness ends and sound begins…you can’t find end or beginning…that the awareness of the sound and the sound are one and the same? Just LOOK. Don’t listen to thought that says…yes but it seems that I am sitting here hearing the sound and the sound is over there. This isn’t about what thought says.

What is your direct actual experience?

What precisely is the difference between sound and awareness of sound? In other words, pinpoint what exactly "awareness" is, that is different from "what is awared". Can a difference be found?

Do you need anything to know that you are aware, that you are that which is the knowing of all experience?

This is a difficult sentence, I read it several times and I don’t know if I got it correctly. Right now I’m not aware, that you/I am that which is the knowing of all experiences. At the moment this is more a definition for me. I don’t know what I would need to know to be aware of this. But maybe it's getting clearer over the time.

Look to your experience. When a sound arises, does the knowing of the sound happen not arise with it in one undivided experience. Are you somehow separate from that? Can you find that which is separate from that? Point to that which is separate from that. Can you find it?

Best wishes,

Aragon

[Gerd]

Hi Aragon,

Are you doing this?

Ok., so I will try to apply the exercises to everyday life. It is not my intention just to intellectually understand. The intention is to get whatever is offered. I do the exercises as good as can and try to see what I can see. It would be a waste of time if it would be different. I understand and agree that I am tending more to the intellectual side and here is more another side wanted which is maybe not so much developed in myself.

Can you notice the appearance of the sense of self throughout your day? can you look, even for a few seconds to see what it is that appears as the sense of self?

Sorry but I have no idea what the sense of self is. All I can do is to keep it with me and maybe something is opening up. I think I read somewhere about no-self as no ‘I’.

Is it? It is really a question for you to ask yourself?

If I close my eyes and am aware of a sound I cannot find a You, there is only awareness of the sound. I don’t even know what this You could be. We said in the thread that there is no ‘I’ and now there is a ‘You’.

You can find sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, thought (words and mental image) - and you can find the knowing of them - and you can see that they are one and the same (there is no dividing line) - can you find anything else at all outside of these things? If yes, point to it? If not, what are you - these things, or something that you cannot find (but just presume to be true)?

No, there is only AE of sight, sound, smell……. I understand that this is a pointing that experiencing is ‘you’. But I don’t understand what is meant by you. Is there a you?

It is not about understanding. Check again and again with all the senses, where is the dividing line between you and the sense-object, between you and the knowing of the sense-object.... and so on. Can you find it? It is in the looking that the answer lies.

There is no dividing line and no you. All there is is the AE of sound.

Again, it is not about having an idea. What do you take yourself to be? If you have an idea you are a body, try and find the body. If you have an idea that you are a mind, try and find the mind. If you have an idea that you are Gerd, try and find Gerd. Be curious. Investigate. What do I take myself to be - is it true or just an idea?

You is not the body, not the mind, not Gerd, You doesn’t exist.

Can a sound be known without the knowing of it?

Without knowing a sound a sound cannot be known.

What is your direct actual experience?

There is only the actual experience of the sound.

What precisely is the difference between sound and awareness of sound? In other words, pinpoint what exactly "awareness" is, that is different from "what is awared". Can a difference be found?

There is awareness of the awared…… I don’t know.

Look to your experience. When a sound arises, does the knowing of the sound happen not arise with it in one undivided experience. Are you somehow separate from that? Can you find that which is separate from that? Point to that which is separate from that. Can you find it?

Yes, when a sound arises the knowing of the sound arises in one experience. I am not separate from it.

Aragon, at the moment it seems to be a bit of a difficult phase for me. It took me 6 hours now to do this answer. Rewriting, rethinking, experiencing again and again. Not getting it clear. I don't know if it's a difficult topic or if it has to do with myself. There is pretty much confusion at the moment.

Thank You, Gerd

[Aragon]

Hi Gerd,

Thanks for your reply.....

Aragon, at the moment it seems to be a bit of a difficult phase for me. It took me 6 hours now to do this answer. Rewriting, rethinking, experiencing again and again. Not getting it clear. I don't know if it's a difficult topic or if it has to do with myself. There is pretty much confusion at the moment.

Thanks for your honesty in this. You know confusion can be a good sign. I remember when I was involved in this process, I was so confused I felt like giving up. But the mind cannot ‘get’ this, so confusion is to be expected. You are still here after many weeks so my sense would be there is something in you that yearns for this. I would encourage you to keep going. And I would encourage you to put the exercises you have done to date into practice into your everyday life...consistently.

This inquiry is essentially about what we take ourselves to be. We often have ideas about ourselves, such as “I am Gerd’, ‘I like riding bikes’, ‘I am male’, ‘I am human’, and so on.

We may have more psychological ideas, such as ‘I am a positive person’, or ‘I am an anxious person’, and so on.

In our lives we take these to be true, and we do not question them. Often they seem so obvious and real, it doesn’t occur to us that they may not be true, or true only in a relative sense.

And we also have a sense of self: We feel this ‘I’. It’s often more obvious if someone upsets us - ‘How could they do that to ME!!!???’

But we can feel it even now. Is there a sense that someone is reading this text. Is there a sense that someone is trying to understand it? Is there a sense that someone is confused? Or trying to figure it all out?

When you experience this sense of self, can you stop for a moment, and just check what it is. Where is it located? What is the actual experience of this sense of self ? Keep checking this every time you notice it appears...

And the idea labelled as confusion may arise... However can anyone be found that is confused, or is there simply a noticing of confusion happening?

And so on.

Through inquiry we see that these things are not who I am. We cannot really find anything except sight, sound, smell, taste, sensation, and thoughts (words and mental images).

And yet we know we are here. Something IS happening. We are aware. Can that be denied?

So we look at these things that we find and we see that the knowing them always arises with them. After all if it didn’t they wouldn’t be known. This is an artificial distinction really but it helps us to look - is the knowing separate from the known…. And we see that it is not.

So the questions arises, if we cannot find all the things we take ourselves to be, and we can only find sight, sound, smell, taste, touch/sensation, and thoughts (words and sensations) and the knowing of them, what are we? What is our essential nature?

I would say there isn’t really an answer to this, because any answer we give can itself become another concept or idea, but it can help to ask the question and see how the answer appears to you.

What are you? Are you Gerd? Are you a human being? Or are those just concepts that you have learned? What is your essential nature?

The separate finite self, that which we call 'me' who was born, lives a life and then dies has never existed. It can't be found.

But there is that which we can call Knowing.

But can Knowing be found? Can knowing be described? Does it have a location, a shape, form or colour, a beginning or an end? Is it boundless and infinite?

Check for yourself.

Your job is not to accept this as true, but to examine this in the light of your own direct experience.

When the sense of self appears, that which is reading this text, check back and see - what is it you find? Do you find a person reading the text? Or some combination of sight, sound, smell, taste, sensation, and thoughts (words and mental images) and the knowing of them?

Can you do this repeatedly throughout the day? Can you be the detective in this game of life? Can you step out of the matrix of thought and begin to see from the outside, from beyond the realm of thought?


The illusion is that there is a separate self that has experiences. The illusion is that there is an external world that you (e.g. through the body) perceive the so called external world ... and that is what we conventionally call experience. While you hold this belief, you necessarily feel separate because a world over there is only possible if there is a "me" over here. This enquiry is about seeing that the subject-knows-object model of reality is only a belief, and that reality is non-dual. There is no subject nor object, only self-aware experience.

Wishing you well,

Aragon

[Gerd]

Hi Aragon,

thank You for your writing. It helps!
There is a lot of thinking at the moment (which can't be stopped).
I will answer tomorrow.

Thank You, Gerd

[Gerd]

Hi Aragon,

And the idea labelled as confusion may arise... However can anyone be found that is confused, or is there simply a noticing of confusion happening?

Yes, nobody can be found who is confused. But there is confusion happening…. There is a confusing feeling (which doesn’t feel nice). So the question is how to deal with the feeling of confusion. Stop after 3 hours (when the confusion starts) and switch of the computer or keep on trying to finish the thread (while the feeling is getting worse).

Can that be denied?

Yes, something is happening and we are here.

What are you? Are you Gerd? Are you a human being? Or are those just concepts that you have learned? What is your essential nature?

After doing all the exercises I think the essential nature cannot be known, cannot be expressed, cannot be thought, maybe can be experienced.

But can Knowing be found? Can knowing be described? Does it have a location, a shape, form or colour, a beginning or an end? Is it boundless and infinite?

Maybe knowing can be found or experienced. It cannot be described, has no location, shape, form, colour, beginning or end. Yes, it is at least boundless and infinite.

When the sense of self appears, that which is reading this text, check back and see - what is it you find? Do you find a person reading the text? Or some combination of sight, sound, smell, taste, sensation, and thoughts (words and mental images) and the knowing of them?

I can find both: I can see a person reading the text (that’s what I am used to over all the years). On the other side I can experience sight, sound, smell….. and thoughts and the knowing of it.

Can you do this repeatedly throughout the day? Can you be the detective in this game of life? Can you step out of the matrix of thought and begin to see from the outside, from beyond the realm of thought?

Ok., so I will try to be more in actual experience than in thought.

The illusion is that there is a separate self that has experiences. The illusion is that there is an external world that you (e.g. through the body) perceive the so called external world ... and that is what we conventionally call experience. While you hold this belief, you necessarily feel separate because a world over there is only possible if there is a "me" over here. This enquiry is about seeing that the subject-knows-object model of reality is only a belief, and that reality is non-dual. There is no subject nor object, only self-aware experience.

Thank You for this!

Thank You, Gerd

[Aragon]

Hi Gerd,

Thanks for your reply....

And the idea labelled as confusion may arise... However can anyone be found that is confused, or is there simply a noticing of confusion happening?

Yes, nobody can be found who is confused. But there is confusion happening…. There is a confusing feeling (which doesn’t feel nice). So the question is how to deal with the feeling of confusion. Stop after 3 hours (when the confusion starts) and switch of the computer or keep on trying to finish the thread (while the feeling is getting worse).

What are you expecting here? Are you expecting that unpleasantness will no longer arise? Is that what you are searching for?

Seeing through the separate self is not about escaping life or avoiding unpleasantness...it is to LOOK and see what is actually happening to see if what thought is saying holds any water. And since the content of thought is empty, as thoughts in and of themselves do not contain any experience...then how can thoughts interpretations and stories actually hold any truth?

Why do you continue for 3 hours? Why not stop before it becomes overwhelming?
The reason confusion is so strong is because you are trying to think your answers and not look with AE. And as we said at the beginning, this exploration is not about thinking but is learning to LOOK with AE to see what actually IS, and not what thought says is. You have been thinking throughout this thread and not LOOKING.

How can the feeling of 'confusion' get worse? It's the meaning that you have given confusion that that makes it worse. The thoughts about not getting it, of failing, not understanding....and everything else that it means to you, is what is causing your suffering around confusion...that is what is creating the angst.

What is the AE of confusion? Let's LOOK! You can do the following exercise with any emotion that appears. Just substitute the emotion with the word 'confusion'.

When ‘confusion’ appears, close your eyes and do the following. You can use this exercise for any thought that appears.

1) Look at the label/thought ‘I am feeling confused’ itself. See the thought as a typewritten sentence in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead

Does the thought know anything about confusion, or is it just a bunch of letters?
Is the label ‘confusion’ itself confused?
Is the thought itself confused?
Can you find anyone/anything in the words themselves that is confused?

2) Then ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about an “I” who is “confused”.

Look and see if the sensation itself is the confused self. If the words ‘yes’ , or ‘yes, this is the self’ appears, go back to Step 1 and see the words across the forehead and repeat step 1.

Is the sensation a confused self?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is confused?
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the sensation or behind the sensation that can be ‘confused’. What do you find?

If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is confused, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is confused as you did in step 1.

3) Look at colour labelled ‘body’ and then close the eyes and look at the mental image/outline labelled ‘body’.

Do the colours labelled as ‘me/I/body’ know anything about ‘confusion’?
Are the colours labelled as ‘my body’ confused in anyway?
Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘confusion’ or about an “I” who is confused?
Is there is anyone/anything in the colours or behind the colour that can be found and are ‘confused’. What do you find?

If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is confused, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is confused, as you did in step 1.

4) With eyes still closed look everywhere and see if you can find anyone or anything that is confused or in confusion. Can anyone/anything be found anywhere? Or only sensations + thoughts about being confused are found?

The label ‘confusion’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of confusion
The sensation labelled ‘confusion’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of confusion
The image labelled ‘me/I/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of confusion
The thoughts ABOUT confusion are AE of thought and not AE of confusion

So what is actually known (ie actual experience) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT confusion? But is confusion actually known?

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation or the arising thoughts or images; we are only LOOKING to see what those appearances actually are, as opposed to just believing what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS (appearing).

Let me know how you go. What did you find when you did this exercise. What happened?

Can that be denied?

Yes, something is happening and we are here.

Yes, can you tune into that? How does that feel?

But can Knowing be found? Can knowing be described? Does it have a location, a shape, form or colour, a beginning or an end? Is it boundless and infinite?

Maybe knowing can be found or experienced. It cannot be described, has no location, shape, form, colour, beginning or end. Yes, it is at least boundless and infinite.

Yes, knowing is simply known, because knowing and known are one and the same and cannot be located, found etc. It is thought that seems to know a subject (the knower) and an object (the known) but Knowing knows only Knowing. We are that Knowing, and thus we know our Self alone.

When the sense of self appears, that which is reading this text, check back and see - what is it you find? Do you find a person reading the text? Or some combination of sight, sound, smell, taste, sensation, and thoughts (words and mental images) and the knowing of them?

I can find both: I can see a person reading the text (that’s what I am used to over all the years). On the other side I can experience sight, sound, smell….. and thoughts and the knowing of it.

You are thinking and not LOOKING. Unless you start to look then you will feel confused, frustrated etc.

Where is this person who is reading the text exactly? Locate this person and tell me where it resides and describe it to me in precise detail.

The label 'person' is AE of thought and not AE of a person
The image labelled as 'me/body/person' is AE of colour and not AE of a person
The sensation labelled as 'person' is AE of sensation and not AE of a person
Thoughts ABOUT a person and what it is and means (ie the content of the thought/label 'person') are AE of thought and not AE of a person.

What is known is label + colour + sensation + thoughts about a person...but is a person actually known?

When you say you see a person, are you not talking about an image = the content of thought? You have already looked for the body and failed to find it? What is it about the content of thought that you take it to be real?

Ok., so I will try to be more in actual experience than in thought.

Yes, this is what you need to do. But you also need to see the unreality of thought. If you can bear witness to thoughts arising, you may start to see that they are not true in the way we take them to be. this is what a lot of the exercises point to.


Wishing you well,

Aragon

[Gerd]

Hi Aragon,

What are you expecting here? Are you expecting that unpleasantness will no longer arise? Is that what you are searching for?

It would be nice if there wouldn’t be unpleasantness any more. But I don’t think it is a main reason for being here.

Does the thought know anything about confusion, or is it just a bunch of letters?

The thought doesn’t know anything about confusion, there are only letters.

Is the label ‘confusion’ itself confused?

No, the label confusion is not confused.

Is the thought itself confused?

No, I don’t think the thought is confused.

Can you find anyone/anything in the words themselves that is confused?

No, nothing is confused in the words.

Is the sensation a confused self?

I don’t know. Is there anything else apart from self which can be confused? All I can say is, that there is a confusing feeling.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is confused?

No, the sensation itself is not confused.

And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the sensation or behind the sensation that can be ‘confused’. What do you find?

No, there is no one in the sensation who can be confused.

Do the colours labelled as ‘me/I/body’ know anything about ‘confusion’?

No, the colours don’t know anything about confusion.

Are the colours labelled as ‘my body’ confused in anyway?

No, the colours are not confused.

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘confusion’ or about an “I” who is confused?

No, the image doesn’t know anything about confusion or an I.

Is there is anyone/anything in the colours or behind the colour that can be found and are ‘confused’. What do you find?

No, nobody can be found in the colours and is confused.

With eyes still closed look everywhere and see if you can find anyone or anything that is confused or in confusion.

I cannot find anyone that is confused.

Can anyone/anything be found anywhere? Or only sensations + thoughts about being confused are found?

There are only sensations and thoughts about being confused.

So what is actually known (ie actual experience) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT confusion? But is confusion actually known?

Confusion is not known. But there is confusion happening.

Let me know how you go. What did you find when you did this exercise. What happened?

With some sentences there started confusion again but I got it sorted out. And of course it would be nice to get rid of those sensations… but it’s not.

Yes, can you tune into that? How does that feel?

It’s obvious, that something is happening. That we are here is difficult to get. After saying that ‘I’ is only a thought and all there is is experience then there is the question what is we/you.

What is known is label + colour + sensation + thoughts about a person...but is a person actually known?

A person is not known.

When you say you see a person, are you not talking about an image = the content of thought? You have already looked for the body and failed to find it? What is it about the content of thought that you take it to be real?

Yes, ‘person’ is AE of thought and a label. A body cannot be known.

Thank You, Gerd

[Aragon]

Hi Gerd,

Thanks for your reply.

Though most of your answers are 'correct', you still seem to not really be looking, and I wonder if this is my guiding style.

Often a change in the style of guiding can make the difference. And for this reason, I would like to suggest that you restart with another guide by posting again on the forum and answering the initial questions.

How would you feel about that?

I would encourage you to do this, and not to give up. Rather see this as an opportunity to get clearer and maybe be in relationship with someone who is better able to point you in this.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Wishing you well,

Aragon

[Gerd]

Hi Aragon,

Yes, I felt a little bit stuck in the last few days.

So, it might be a good idea to do what You are suggesting.

So, what will I have to do? I will apply for a new account, do the registration and start again?

Thank You, Gerd

[Aragon]

Hi Gerd,

No need for a new account, You should just be able to Go to the forum and create a new post.. And answer the questions again as per your current situation.

Let me know if that doesn't work.

Wishing you well

Aragon

[Aragon]

Hi Gerd,

Here is the link to start a thread on the forum: posting.php?mode=post&f=4

Please write a little saying that you have been guided, but are looking for a new guide and copy and paste the questions below and re-answer them. Remember to add a subject to the subject line.

- LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

- What are you looking for at LU?

- What do you expect from a guided conversation?

- What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

- On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?

Wishing you well,

Aragon