Just a story

[MilkRed]

Answer this; is 'right' & 'wrong' defined by cult(ure)? ..or is there some objective, external, objective 'right & wrong'?

No, there is no "culture" in it's own. Only when a beleif system is shared in a group of people we could call it a "culture". And we as humans tend to cling (volontarily or unvolontarily) to belief systems, and therefore culture too. The same holds for the beliefs I learned and now more and more seeing. They are only ideas (constantly returned to thoughts). When they are dissolved (for example by inquiry) they are not beliefs anymore (beleif = thought held true). So no there is no objective right and wrong.

Let's go one step further; you see something or hear something. Where does the experience of seeing or hearing happen?

Seeing and hearing are connected to this body - this body that is easily around and found when it comes into awareness. They are senses as with smell/taste, touch and all the bodily sensations (internal or external). So these sensational experiences happen here. Now.

So would i be right in saying that you judge yourself now in a more lenient way?

Apart from lenient was a word I had to look up ;-) and therefore not have a feeling for (English is not my primary language) - yes. Kinder/more understanding, I would put it with the words I have closer access to.

You are going a step too far. Just because you can't find an I, doesn't mean that there is nothing there.

Ahh.. thank you! Yes I see that now. There was some stress around that concept, also.

in fact, from the perspective of the organism with the label Pål, tell me one thing that is known? One absolute knowing?

Something is alive.


Best
/Pål

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Pål.

So no there is no objective right and wrong.

Yes, excellent. Now, what of consequences?

When they are dissolved (for example by inquiry) they are not beliefs anymore

What of previously held beliefs that have become internalized? For example, here in Australia, we are taught at a young age that snakes are dangerous. Consequently, we respond to seeing a snake with a fear reaction & this happens before thought arrives. How do these habits fit with the dissolving of beliefs through inquiry?

So these sensational experiences happen here. Now.

Yes. The hearing sense is stimulated by vibrating air. The seeing sense responds to light waves. It is only when the 'signals' finally reach the brain that images or sounds occur.
Furthermore, these brain responses are tempered by previous experience and current beliefs. Therefore the whole world is a unique experience of each organism.

yes. Kinder/more understanding,

The point i make here is that you are still judging yourself. Sure, you are writing a different story, but is it the best one. Is it the most adaptive one.

tell me one thing that is known?

Something is alive

This is a story. How is it known? (a hint - remove any deduction)

with love

vince

[MilkRed]

The point i make here is that you are still judging yourself. Sure, you are writing a different story, but is it the best one. Is it the most adaptive one

Yes, I meant to say that I see that too, it just didn't make it into the reply. Yes, the judging didn't really change. Only the contents.

Yes, excellent. Now, what of consequences?

Freedom. The judgements (as eg. above) can happen independently from truth. Ie. they are not true. Regardless of content.

Consequently, we respond to seeing a snake with a fear reaction & this happens before thought arrives. How do these habits fit with the dissolving of beliefs through inquiry?

Are you sure? What if the thought was so quick and so internalized that it wasn't noticed? And it appears as if that fear came without prior thought. I'm not saying I know, but I have been suprised many time of when there was a story behind my reactions that I didn't see.

But on the other hand I have noticed that there is a vast intelligence built in to my body. I remember I was out walking on a jetty some years ago and it was suddenly very slippery and my feet slipped. Without interaction of mind the body (or the intelligence in the body) made a balance maneouver that saved me from falling. It was very elegant and efficient, and totally effortless. I have heard many times that this is the purpose of fear, to save the body from physical threat (snake), producing fear, adrenaline to run away. Of course that's a story too and I cannot know if it's true.

Something is alive

This is a story. How is it known? (a hint - remove any deduction)

It kind of depends of the definition of alive. When writing this answer it didn't come from my intellect, from something I learned. I was looking, then and there, in what I experienced and I experienced aliveness.

But maybe I understand what you are seeing: we may normally equate being alive from "constant change in experience", which implies that there is a past, therefore a story of how it was, even if it was a second ago.

Pål

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Pål.
When reading your responses there was the thought (again) that Pål is already awake, but just doesn't accept this yet.
Tell, what will be different when you do wake up? ..or what makes you think that you are not awake?
Even the title of this thread, "just a story", is telling. ..and the avatar name, "milkred", i presume is an expression of the beauty of a flower.

Yes, the judging didn't really change. Only the contents.

..and here, you express awareness & and not some inane intention to do it differently.

The judgements (as eg. above) can happen independently from truth. Ie. they are not true. Regardless of content.

..and here, a confirmation that all is just a story.

Are you sure? What if the thought was so quick and so internalized that it wasn't noticed?

..and here. This echos a question that has arisen here on several occasions. The conclusion (deduction) that eventuated here is that it doesn't matter. Whether it was an original belief or a current one, it is still the responding to story.

in what I experienced and I experienced aliveness.

Hmm... Ok, this might only be words, but it is important, as language, to a large extent, shapes our perception of the world.
You didn't experience some objective thing called "aliveness". You were experiencing, and the label arrived that fitted a concept - called aliveness.
So, i put it to you, using another convenient concept - labeled reality, that there is only experiencing, and all experiencing is the result of story. (which is part of experiencing)
Just to consolidate this, do this exercise;
Bring your to the sensation of pressure (concepts, concepts) that exists from the contact between the chair and your bum.
Focus intently on this while appreciating that no words can accurately describe/communicate the exact nature of this.
Once you are really absorbed in this sensation, appreciate that there is no chair, no bum, nothing but the sensation.
It is not happening to anyone (except in concept) it is not caused by anything (again, except by deduction) there is only experiencing. No subject, no object. Just experiencing.
Let me know if grokking occurs.

with love

vince

[MilkRed]

Well. Yes. If you say so. Actually I realize I don't really care. It's not so important.

It is not happening to anyone (except in concept) it is not caused by anything (again, except by deduction) there is only experiencing. No subject, no object. Just experiencing.

Yes. This I see, for a couple of years now. There was a defining moment when my last guide asked me if there was any entity to be seen that was the subject.

Tell, what will be different when you do wake up? ..or what makes you think that you are not awake?

Nothing, other than another label: "woken up". I wanted, back in 2017, my then suffering to be gone. I think the (your) question about whether suffering vs. kinder judgement really changed anything about the story telling (other than content) yet was a small clarification. I mean for me to be able to formulate this, gave an "a-ha"-moment.

Best
Pål

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Pål.

Well. Yes. If you say so. Actually I realize I don't really care. It's not so important.

i can't work out what this response is to.

It is not happening to anyone

Yes. This I see, for a couple of years now.

So, what was it that brought you back to seek further?

Nothing, other than another label: "woken up". I wanted, back in 2017, my then suffering to be gone.

At an experiential level, how will that label alleviate suffering?
What forms the basis of that suffering?

with love

vince

[MilkRed]

i can't work out what this response is to

It was just my not-so-clear way of saying, "yes, you are essentially correct, I think that I'm awake and I didn't fully accept it".
And also at the same time when I realized it, I realized that it's not so important. I see what I see. And who's to judge anyway. ;-)

So, what was it that brought you back to seek further?

I guess it was time. Back in 2017 when I was depressed there was a part of me that thought that seeing would give me some sudden relief or some shift in the suffering. But there was not. And I couldn't be sure. So essentially it waited a couple of years and it was time to continue. And there is no difference this time, really. Yes, some things was clerarer from your questions. Like that I took the notion of no-self maybe one step too far and also clarification around the content of the story/judgments (from harsher to kinder).

At an experiential level, how will that label alleviate suffering? What forms the basis of that suffering?

It really won't (as touched on above). The shifting of the story happens on psychological level. It's nice with less suffering. Maybe seeing the true (no-)self can help in not taking it so seriously, but still it's work to be done there.

Which answers the question of what forms the basis of the suffering: when I'm identified as the one in pain, it becomes part of the "I"-story and suffering is difficult to bear. When pain on the other hand "is going on"/"happens" it's easier to see it for what it is. Also it seems with more things going on at the level of form, the easier it is to be tempoararily (re-)trapped into unawareness. But, it seems all the way since 2017, I have been seeing.

As a side note: I had kind of intense spiritual experiences also 2012 and 2015 (very present, total beauty, oneness), but seem to have confused the "experience" with some kind of wake up, as I hear many people do. I was experiencing and was in awe and amazement, but I didn't understand what I saw, really.

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Pål.

I think that I'm awake and I didn't fully accept it".

If you did accept it, do you imagine that you would respond differently to certain triggers?

I realized that it's not so important.

True. "important" is just part of some social story. ..but what of consequences?

And who's to judge anyway. ;-)

Yes, judgment is for those still asleep.

what was it that brought you back to seek further?

So essentially it waited a couple of years and it was time to continue.

The answer to my question is in the 'why' (was it time to continue)

Maybe seeing the true (no-)self

How can you see what isn't there?

The shifting of the story happens on the psychological level.

Yes. The story changes when a more adaptive one appears. (which is what we are doing here)

It's nice with less suffering.

Hmm. Let's differentiate between pain and suffering.
In my lexicon, pain happens at a physical level. This includes emotional pain.
Suffering is what happens when emotional pain results from a story.
Can you see any stories that are believed that cause you suffering?

easier it is to be temporarily (re-)trapped into unawareness.

Ah, great segue here. Let's talk about conditioning (habit) and how to change it.
In the brain, the neuronal pathways (created by synaptic connections) that are used repeatedly are enhanced. They are made stronger and more efficient by frequent use.
When we become aware that they are no longer useful, there are two ways that they can be decommissioned.
They can be pruned or they can atrophy from lack of use.
Neither of these seem to be able to be consciously controlled, but we can indirectly affect change.
Firstly, observe an intent to change.
Secondly, when awareness of that undesirable happening occurs - laugh. Anything from a loud guffaw to a smile, or even a mental chuckle. This thwarts the completion of the old behavior and robs it of the satisfaction factor.
& thirdly, imagine the new neuronal pathway being established that replaces the undesirable one.
On the second point.. the awareness of the habitual response. You will come to recognize triggers. Usually, some intense emotion will arise in response to a situation.
In a fairly short time, you will come to recognize that a trigger has happened but the response to it is short-circuited by the awareness of it. It simply won't eventuate and you will see the new response (a chuckle) happen instead.

but seem to have confused the "experience" with some kind of wake up,

These experiences are more frequent as you spend more time in the 'waking' state. (it's not a state)
So, what is the waking state?

with love

vince

[MilkRed]

If you did accept it, do you imagine that you would respond differently to certain triggers?

It happens now, there seems to have a been yet another deepening these last days. Today I was listening to "horrible news" on the radio while driving. The story took me, but all of I sudden I saw: it's just another story, these things are told for the purpose of waking me up, again and again.

True. "important" is just part of some social story. ..but what of consequences?

Well, the consquences you could maybe call important, as in they will inevitably change how serious I take certain things. As above. Thus emotional patterns may change. Thus actions. We will see. Also, I see where I still get stuck - which stories that bring emotional charge. I used to do a lot of self-inquiry (The Work of Byron Katie), not so much in the last years, but I think I see clearer now where the blind spots lie.

what was it that brought you back to seek further?

Not sure what level I should answer this question. But, I felt a strong pull. On life level, I would answer that the 2017 period of suffering that came from a very painful breakup with a partner. It made me promise to myself, as much can be promised, to never lie to myself (or another partner) again. A little more than I year ago I met a new woman and in this process I tried to practice absolute honesty towards myself and towards her. It felt very raw and very tough, and wasn't always pretty, but for once I felt whole. This honesty was sort of the start to be more honest with everything, at work, with what I like, how I want to live. Even to the point I dropped some of the spiritual "being nice and loving" habits I had taken on, which were not true for me. I only learned them. So in essence I have been extremely attracted to truth. I want to see for my self. I don't care what other's say, how darn ugly/politically incorrect truth looks right now.

how can you see what isn't there?

No I don't. I was just a simplified way of putting it. It means what I'm seeing in the "life", that is, the "story about me". The movie that my eyes (and other senses) are showing me and that the brain make something out of.

Hmm. Let's differentiate between pain and suffering.
In my lexicon, pain happens at a physical level. This includes emotional pain.

Agree.

Suffering is what happens when emotional pain results from a story. Can you see any stories that are believed that cause you suffering?

Kind of. Suffering is what happens when I take the story as truth. Both physical and emotional pain. I hit my toe the other day. I felt it really well. I was very present when it happened and I observed the body's reaction, the sensation in my toe. We can call that sensation 'pain'. But there was no thought. Only experiencing the sensation. No thought saying "this hurts". And there was no sufferening whatsoever. Even with the story running: same day, I beleive, my girlfriend gave me some very straight and honest feedback about something I said she felt hurt from. I heard the story in my head "she's so sensitive, she has it wrong, she doesn't understand", but I only observed the thoughts. No triggering of new stories about the victim "me". No old stuff coming up. No suffering.

In the brain, the neuronal pathways (created by synaptic connections) that are used repeatedly are enhanced. They are made stronger and more efficient by frequent use.

Which is a big time story, unless you're a brain scientist you have only been told this. And even a brain scientist only makes up a model of what is studied and then try to make a coherent narrative to explain what is observed. But still it's as valid as words are valid and can be of great help.

Firstly, observe an intent to change.
Secondly, when awareness of that undesirable happening occurs - laugh. Anything from a loud guffaw to a smile, or even a mental chuckle. This thwarts the completion of the old behavior and robs it of the satisfaction factor.
& thirdly, imagine the new neuronal pathway being established that replaces the undesirable one. On the second point.. the awareness of the habitual response. You will come to recognize triggers. Usually, some intense emotion will arise in response to a situation.
In a fairly short time, you will come to recognize that a trigger has happened but the response to it is short-circuited by the awareness of it. It simply won't eventuate and you will see the new response (a chuckle) happen instead.

Yes!

So, what is the waking state?

I don't think it will ever be described in words. The closest resemblence I can come to see: when the world/life is seen as the most astonishing computer game there was, where there's an interactive I, through all the senses. It's played through the eyes (all senses really) and it's a great amusement.

The Matrix (movie) comes close to explaining this: what if the dream is so accurate you couldn't tell the dream from reality?


Pål

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Pål.

all of I sudden I saw: it's just another story

Yeah, good stuff.
Now this is a big one.. Is there anything that isn't a response to story? (of course, from the perspective of the organism)

these things are told for the purpose of...

Isn't "purpose" a mental construct?
Yes, it can be a useful concept, but we need to be careful not to attribute independence to it.

Well, the consequences you could maybe call important, as in they will inevitably change how serious I take certain things.

Hmm, i guess that we have moved into a more subtle 'level' of wakefulness here. "important" leads us into success (or failure) to outcome in general. This implies control. Do you think that you have control of anything?

So in essence I have been extremely attracted to truth. I want to see for my self. I don't care what other's say, how darn ugly/politically incorrect truth looks right now.

i get what you mean here, but is it just language or do you really see "truth" as something independent?

when I take the story as truth.

Can we change the way we express this to say something like 'when story is believed to be actual' ?

Which is a big time story, unless you're a brain scientist you have only been told this.

Yes, you're right. It's second hand information. ..and whether it's 'true' or not, it's a useful concept.

So, what is the waking state?

I don't think it will ever be described in words.

Agreed. Even the term "awake" is an analogy.
If i try and describe it from an experiential perspective, i would say that there is only experiencing as a response to stories.
There is nothing but stories. Those that are believed (at the moment) and those that are obviously social constructs.
What is actual is a great mystery.
The senses are always a brain interpretation. When it is recognized that they lie, it is an illusion. When they are lying and it is believed it is a delusion.

what if the dream is so accurate you couldn't tell the dream from reality?

Exactly. When i was a kid, my mother woke me to get ready for school. i got up and dressed and was heading out
the bedroom door to get breakfast when i woke up. It was a realistic dream.
If we only recognize that we have been dreaming when we wake up, how do we know that this isn't a dream?
If is say that i am awake, wouldn't this be a new dream?

with love

vince

[MilkRed]

Now this is a big one.. Is there anything that isn't a response to story? (of course, from the perspective of the organism)

No there is not. I looked at a trash can yesterday. In order to understand what I was looking at I had to refer to something in memory (thought) that told me what a trash can "is". That is there are mental pictures coming up showing me what can be done with a trash can, throwing stuff, stinking trashcans. This tells me what a trashcan "is". (=> story) Interestingly when I (rarely) see something that I cannot refer to, that the mind cannot understand, there is a stop and there is this "nothing". It's what happened actually when I heard Adyashanti's question (altough it wasn't a physical object).

Isn't "purpose" a mental construct?

Yes, same thing! I have to really construct a world in order to understand the notion of purpose. And purpose implies direction, travel, this leads to that, from A to B, etc. => story

Do you think that you have control of anything?

No. This was investigated thoroughly in this thread three years ago. If I give me a task to come up with any object and let's say I come to think of a cat. And I claim that "I" came up with "a cat" I can look closer and see that "cat" just appeared. I didn't do anything. I wasn't in charge of determining it is a cat. It just appeared, literally out of nothing. So if I beleive I have control it's the same thing... where do the idea the controls the control come from? It just happens.

do you really see "truth" as something independent? Can we change the way we express this to say something like 'when story is believed to be actual' ?

No, and thank you for pointing it out, I tend to use the word "truth" sloppily. What I mean is rather "my truth" which is an approximation of what I "know" to best extent is best for me now. I think maybe "honesty" is a better word. I have wanted to be as honest (as I can) during the last years. And "believed to be actual" would work too, altough it's just a little more efficient to say "honest", I think. (There are 1:1-corresponding words in Swedish too: truth - sanning, honesty - ärlighet)

If is say that i am awake, wouldn't this be a new dream?

Yes it's just a new concept to be understood. I'd need to have a reference to understand it.


//Pålle

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Pål.
So, let's summarise; (That is let me create a story)
The organism is a story creator. They start with perceptions, which are shaped by (fabricated) history & circumstances. Some stories become beliefs. These ones we respond to with emotion then behavior.
We don't have conscious control over anything. Intention (if it arises) is a beginning of a new story.
Surrender (acceptance) is key to serenity. (This includes surrendering to the consequences of being "honest" with others.)
What is objectively actual, is a mystery).
The past is a perceptual construction. The future is imagined. The present (THIS) is a dream.
Pleasure may or may not happen if we dream lucidly. (This was where the Matrix fell down. The red pill wasn't reality - it was just another dream)

Have i left anything out? (I'm sure i have)

love

vince

[MilkRed]

The organism is a story creator.

Noting that: the organism is a story too... such as "I". (But I get your point. We have to start somewhere when we tell a story.)

Intention (if it arises) is a beginning of a new story.

Nice way of seeing intention, didn't think of it this way before. Anyway "intention" arises out of seemlingly nothing. Consequently "intention" = creation.

Surrender (acceptance) is key to serenity.

The way I see it here: surrender - letting go - accepting whatever appears as it is - would be serenity if there is no resistance. Surrendering can be expereienced as fearful, ie fear can be experienced and that is the last step in this process, surrendering to the fear too.

What is objectively actual, is a mystery

If anything

The past is a perceptual construction. The future is imagined. The present (THIS) is a dream.
Pleasure may or may not happen if we dream lucidly.

Completely

Pleasure may or may not happen if we dream lucidly.

Pleasure and pain are equal response mechanisms to beleiving the dream. We tend to "like" one and "dislike" the other, which are yet two labels.

(This was where the Matrix fell down. The red pill wasn't reality - it was just another dream)

Yes, haha I was thinking about it, but it wouldn't be much of a movie otherwise.

Have i left anything out? (I'm sure i have)

time - sequence of memories, or what is experienced now in relation to what can be remembered gives an illusion of passing time. Even if I look on a clock it always shows me the current time. Past time on the clock is a remembered image of the clock. So time is a thought.
(Did you that physicists define time as "something that can be measured by a clock". You actually have to construct a machine in order to define time. I find this very fascinating. )
memory/remember - thoughts
anticipation - thoughts

Thanks Vince
Gratitude /Pål

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Pål.

Nometing that: the organism is a story too...

Agreed. As soon as we use language, we are starting a story.

"intention" arises out of seemingly nothing.

Yes. Here's another story that i like;
Intention is a condition, along with other conditions, that result in happenings. So if we start with a happening and work backward, we can recognize some of the conditions necessary for that happening to come about.
Those other conditions themselves are dependent on conditions to exist.
Let's just take on of those conditions as an example & follow it backward. That organism which is involved in the happening.
To have the necessary physical characteristics to enable its involvement in the happening is dependent not only on the DNA that was inherited from it's parents, but its physical & mental history.
Now if we just take the DNA aspect, we can easily see that that the exact physical (& mental) characteristics of both parents are necessary for this organism to exist as it is. Scientific research has shown that women in concentration camps during WW2 who experienced as little as 2 weeks of starvation passed on altered DNA to their granddaughters (who manifested eating disorders)
The conditions necessary for their ancestors is just as critical. ...and we can trace the genetics back to the beginning of human kind, and beyond, to the beginning of existence & see that absolutely everything that ever happened to everything that ever existed, had to be exactly as it was for this happening to come about.
It would only take one mosquito in the Amazon, a thousand years ago to have not existed, and current conditions would be different.
For me, this story is a perfect expression of One-ness.

surrender - letting go - accepting whatever appears as it is - would be serenity if there is no resistance.

Ah yes. This was the epiphany that woke Vince up.
When somebody spoke the words "The mosquito bite of searching will never heal while you keep scratching it.", the phrase THIS IS IT! happened, and Vince became vince.
Then there was total, willing, even welcoming acceptance/surrendering to THIS.
THIS might best be described as current experiencing, rather than (apparently) objective circumstances.

time - sequence of memories, or what is experienced now in relation to what can be remembered gives an illusion of passing time.

Agreed. i can't see NOW as a time sandwiched between past and future. i see THIS as a better description of the present. eg, i have always been THIS age. The child (that i was) is just as much a story, as the old man that i might be.

Past time on the clock is a remembered image of the clock. So time is a thought.

Yes yes. A story just as "Truth" or "right & wrong", or many other things that language has coerced us into believing have an independent existence.

with much love

vince

[MilkRed]

As soon as we use language, we are starting a story.

Ah, yes of course!

... For me, this story is a perfect expression of One-ness.

Could you please, see if you could depict what you wrote above this line again, and be even more concrete? I think I understand what you are writing and I follow the essence in it, but anyway, would you give it another try please?

"The mosquito bite of searching will never heal while you keep scratching it."

Well put. Acutally some things have changed during the last week because of this inquiry we are doing. All of a sudden I find my own ideas about the apparent outside world to be kind of uninteresting. What good would it do to add my opinions, objections or whatever onto others, as they are just a story and they are just telling stories anyway? It's more interesting to listen to what they have to say instead.

It's amusing to see that the weirder the story seems (like when hearing some new "horrible facts" about the virus or the political situation in US) the more easily it's revealed as a story, even a great story and I find it only interesting and it doesn't trigger me.


Pål