Ready to dive in...

[vinceschubert]

i have zero confidence that i'm on the other side of it

Ha, these are just thoughts resulting in sensations which morph into emotions.
ix, the ONLY difference between the liberated and the 'yet to be liberated' is that the liberated knows what is real and what is story. (this of course, results in great differences going forward)
Everybody is in their own unique jail cell. The liberated knows that the door was never locked. The 'yet to be liberated' are too busy complaining about the cell to even try the door.
Put your hands by your side and bend forward and launch off, head first into the most welcoming future that can possibly occur NOW !
ALL IT TAKES IS THE ACCEPTANCE THAT THIS IS IT !

[ixturtle]

the liberated knows what is real and what is story

when i think about it, i know the distinction. sometimes i even see the distinction as plain as day. but i'm (for the most part) not living the distinction and my general sense of reality is based mostly on stuff that lands in the story camp.

that said, there is a wearing away, a slow erosion of the story, as well as the allegiance to the story, which this dialogue most certainly supports.

a lot of gratitude for you being there.

thoughts that are most present for me now:

this life just is, it does not require an overlay of story
if i'm thinking it, it's a story
the stories that arise (not the content) are part of this life
allowing (not resisting) is saying yes to what's here in this life at this moment
that also means allowing the stories (without concern for content) to be here too
the details of what's here at this moment are irrelevant next to the fact that what's here IS HERE
allowing what's here to be here is probably about as head first as it comes

ALL IT TAKES IS THE ACCEPTANCE THAT THIS IS IT !

and i can't "do" acceptance. all i can do is relax non acceptance (resistance)...

BTW, jail imagery is relevant since that's back where i am, working in a place where the actual cell doors are indeed locked. what an amazing thing for any of us, inside or out, to discover that the door that really matters is already open...

[vinceschubert]

my general sense of reality is based mostly on stuff that lands in the story camp.
that said, there is a wearing away, a slow erosion of the story

Yes, each time it is seen, it will weaken.
Careful of a story that says "it will all have to be worn away like this..". There will be leaps and bounds too.

and i can't "do" acceptance. all i can do is relax non acceptance (resistance)...

Hmm, things don't get done because of Doing by a self.
Things happen because of an infinite number of dependent arising conditions. (in other words Life takes care of what needs doing)
OK, you can't 'do' acceptance. Even relaxing non acceptance is outcome oriented. Focusing on outcome, is a story.
You can real-ize that "acceptance is all it takes". You can re-cognize that.
Something that is stated in the 'Sweet Spot' rant is that What is, IS. Acceptance or not, it still IS. A tree is still a tree even if you call it a house. Reality doesn't require your acceptance to be reality. It just IS.
Your reality on the other hand is altered by your acceptance or not.
Is there separation between Reality and your Reality ?
Where do they intersect ?

[ixturtle]

A tree is still a tree even if you call it a house.

Point taken.

Reality doesn't require your acceptance to be reality. It just IS.
Your reality on the other hand is altered by your acceptance or not.
Is there separation between Reality and your Reality ?
Where do they intersect ?

Wow. That question hurts my head... which is maybe a good thing? Let's see...

"Reality" is what IS. "My reality" is reality filtered through a mind's conditioning, but what IS includes that too, right? Not that the stories are true, but the appearance/experience of the stories is included. So "my reality" is an appearance within/or aspect of reality. Most of us live and die from the perspective that "my reality" (experience + opinions, judgments, resistance, reactions) is TRUE. Even if we allow our truth to be relative vis-a-vis others-- potAto potAHto-- we still claim "my reality" as "my truth." But this is always less than WHAT IS and accounts for the sense of being separate-- from what is, from truth, from life-- which would explain why everyone feels so out of whack. Every time "my reality" is seen as just story, rather than as TRUE, that separation from the truth, from what is, softens.

Hmmmm.... that seems like a good place to head into dream land. Good night (morning!).

[vinceschubert]

"My reality" is reality filtered through a mind's conditioning,

If by "filtered" you mean Selective Perception, that is certainly true.
A story that i have is that there is Raw Reality, then there is a story told about that which immediately enters fairy land. Then there is Responding to the story with emotion, which reinforces the story which now has sufficient strength to evoke ever stronger emotions. Now we have Reality that i would call your personal Reality.
Having said that, the ONLY Reality, is the Experiencing of the Organism. Every Reality is a personal Reality, only the Pre-Story version and the Post-Story version differ greatly.
Only one version includes Suffering.
Guess which one.

"my reality" ... is always less than WHAT IS

i know what you mean and agree, but...
Your reality IS What IS. It is so much less, no, it is just very different without the 'addition' of story stuff.

that separation from the truth, from what is, softens.

..again, i know what you mean and you say it beautifully, but i need to kill that hint of romance. (it's my job)
There is no such thing as Truth. It is as much an illusion as Self.
Check for yourself. Have you ever Experienced a thing called Truth ?
It is just language talking about some supposed characteristics of something.
You are not separated from the Truth (presuming Truth = Reality) Nor are you separate from "what is". Reality is, As IT IS.
As Reality consists entirely of your current experiencing, tell me, is it possible for there to be Experiencing without an Experiencer or an Experiencer without an Experiencing ?
Is it possible for there to be any separation between 'you' and 'your' experiencing ?

[ixturtle]

Every Reality is a personal Reality, only the Pre-Story version and the Post-Story version differ greatly. Only one version includes Suffering. Guess which one.

Right... "no story, no problem." And we are addicted to stories, which is to say we're addicted to problems. Which is pretty insane...

There is no such thing as Truth. It is as much an illusion as Self.
Check for yourself. Have you ever Experienced a thing called Truth ?

Point taken.

is it possible for there to be Experiencing without an Experiencer or an Experiencer without an Experiencing ?
Is it possible for there to be any separation between 'you' and 'your' experiencing ?

Bentinho Massero used to say something similar about experiencing and experience-- the impossibility of separating out direct experiencing of something from that which is being experienced. And it seems to be the same for subject verb as it is for verb object. So if verb = object and subject = verb, ergo, subject = object... I realize that's a bit silly, but when looking at it in this way, there's a slightly nauseous feeling that arises hinting that non-separation is right there.

[vinceschubert]

there's a slightly nauseous feeling that arises hinting that non-separation is right there.

Excellent. Ok, head first into the nausea. It's a portal.

[ixturtle]

Day eases in and out of being caught up and being at ease. Still no sonic booms (I know I know... they aren't coming). "Just experiencing" (which seemed purely conceptual when reading Gateless Gate) feels foggy but nearby. My "inner roommate" as Micky Singer refers to the mental chatter, is determined to sort it all out (when it's not trying to sort out life details), but for at least some part of the time the roommate is seen for what it is: mental noise arising as an aspect of "my one reality".

hesitating to ask this, because in asking it will sound like a problem complete with doers and experiencers and pasts and futures (which of course are still very much clunking around "my reality"), but yesterday i was with a friend and i found that the only way for me to maintain a conversation was to talk about stories & problems, which then i would get modestly caught up in. i couldn't for the life of me think of what to say otherwise (of course, everything i say is a story, but particularly ensnaring are my day to day life stories/relationships/doings, which is what friends typically share). Is this just a pointer towards less needless chatter that fuels stories and suffering and instead, allowing more silence in my life? i'm wondering if you have thoughts on this.

[vinceschubert]

i found that the only way for me to maintain a conversation was to talk about stories & problems,which then i would get modestly caught up in.

Yes, i know that one, but it will pass.
It is an I that needs to talk, (think). It needs to do this to maintain the delusion.
Here, there is very much involvement with the 'dramas' of other people, but no identification. Everybody (and everything) is me, and so when somebody is living out their story, compassion arises and an inquiry into the message for my own 'deepening' occurs.
The message for you seems (to me) to be how to bring awareness to the getting modestly caught up.

allowing more silence in my life?

This may happen sooner or later, but most likely later... (or not)

[ixturtle]

A bit foggy and lost today, with some frustration attached, though there were a few moments of allowing the fog/lost/frustration in fully and in those moments, a soft presence appears.

a period of clarity generally is followed by an "i" with an agenda (generally, for clarity to stay). when reality doesn't match agenda, everything gets foggy-- the gate fades and seems impenetrable and beside the point. but both "I" and agenda live as thoughts appearing within reality, so what do "i' get hung up on?

Just re-read the sweet spot, which is a good touchstone.

Trying to write more but nodding off to sleep, so giving in to the latter...

[vinceschubert]

a period of clarity generally is followed by an "i" with an agenda (generally, for clarity to stay)

Ha, seeing it, welcome it. It is mind doing well what it has been trained to do. It will let go as it re-defines it's duties.
How is the chuckle going, when bullshit is seen through ?

but both "I" and agenda live as thoughts appearing within reality,

Try this; Reality exists as both "I" and thoughts (that appear as agenda.)

so what do "i' get hung up on?

a great technique is to ask yourself "what do "i" get hung up on ?" and wait for the first thoughts to arise.
Another is to use the question as a title of a story and write (type) a free flow of images without consultation until it is done. (you can also record yourself talking if that is more conducive to free flow - but writing allows a kind of slow motion progression)

Just re-read the sweet spot, which is a good touchstone.

Yes, it stood me in good stead for the first few months through the gate.
I suggest that you construct/create/compose your own version. (and share it here)

but nodding off to sleep, so giving in to the latter...

Ah, sweet sleep. A good idea is to imagine that when you wake in the morning, it will be to a completely different world. The same world where nothing has changed but everything is different.
Like you've suddenly realised that you've been wearing dirty sunglasses all of your life and now they are gone. (careful of the glare)

[ixturtle]

Wanted yesterday to spend some time with your suggestions, but instead the day slipped by with a good deal of resistance hanging about as well.

How is the chuckle going, when bullshit is seen through ?

Hmmm... the chuckle goes very well when it's going, but not so much re., bullshit seen through. I'm caught up, I notice, I remind myself this is just imagined, and a certain ease returns. This is different than seeing clearly that something is a whole lotta cocamamie BS, ha ha ha.

ix: both "I" and agenda live as thoughts appearing within reality,
vince: Try this; Reality exists as both "I" and thoughts (that appear as agenda.)

Not sure I quite get the distinction...

a great technique is to ask yourself "what do "i" get hung up on ?" and wait for the first thoughts to arise.

I did this, and the first thought in my head was "love"-- not as in romantic love, but more like love of "self", love of life, love of others, worthiness of love. has a child's desperation quality in it, as well as an adult's despair.

I suggest that you construct/create/compose your own version.

been living a bit in the sour spot, but here goes:

the sweet spot is experienced...
when the mind's chatter is seen as impersonal
when its recognized that life doesn't require an overlay of labels and stories
when labels and stories (and resistance and doubt) are seen as part of the texture of this moment
when what's here is allowed to be here
when experiencing is all there is-- no experiencer, no experience...

two other thoughts floating through:
1) this is a bit confusing to articulate, but this body/mind has been testing (if that's something it can even actually "do") the edges of "life takes care of itself" and while sometimes it doesn't seem like it, ultimately, things are taken care of, even if that includes body/mind stepping in. there feels to be a quality of recklessness here though, and as i said before, the possibility of negligence. i guess the question is, how much can i let go of doing? (that question should have you ROFL, no doubt... but it's a sincere one).
2) curious to know, if i'm a reflection of you and what arises here is an opportunity for deepening there, then what does all this flip-flopping self-doubting over-thinking add to the experiencing over there?

[vinceschubert]

This is different than seeing clearly that something is a whole lotta cocamamie BS

How is it different ?
It looks like Seeing to me. Pretty soon you wont have to remind yourself that it's just imagined. Just seeing it will be enough. The recognition. Each time this happens, there comes into being or is strengthened Neuronal pathways and connections in the brain. Once these are established... and the old ones will atrophy form disuse.

ix: both "I" and agenda live as thoughts appearing within reality,
vince: Try this; Reality exists as both "I" and thoughts (that appear as agenda.)
Not sure I quite get the distinction...

The "I" and thoughts ARE reality. Reality can't be broken into parts (except by thought for the purpose of feeling in control) They're not IN reality, they ARE it. (when experiencing that)

the sweet spot is experienced...
when the mind's chatter is seen as impersonal
when its recognized that life doesn't require an overlay of labels and stories
when labels and stories (and resistance and doubt) are seen as part of the texture of this moment
when what's here is allowed to be here
when experiencing is all there is-- no experiencer, no experience...

Pretty good for someone claiming to be still asleep...

there feels to be a quality of recklessness here though, and as i said before, the possibility of negligence. i guess the question is, how much can i let go of doing?

You can do Doing, exactly as much as you do now. Your not letting go of Doing because you never had control of it. It just seemed that way. It is part of the illusion (delusion). The mind does this by claiming ownership of everything that goes well, and blames others when they don't.
There is great freedom in resting in what always was, and no longer investing huge amounts of energy in maintaining the apparent real-ness of the concept I.

the first thought in my head was "love"

Yes, this could be really scary. It's total vunerability, absolute openness. Zero defense. Nada protection.
i have a story that the consciousness that manifests form, is also known as Love.
It is what's left when the personal is removed (recognised as story)

then what does all this flip-flopping self-doubting over-thinking add to the experiencing over there?

It keeps me focused while the brain re-wiring is active.
Enjoyable sensations are present when this dance is happening.
i get confronted with (my) unseen beliefs and opinions. They get seen.
i get a warm fuzzy feeling when i imagine you getting the goodie bag i received at the gate.
and blah, blah...

[ixturtle]

Pretty good for someone claiming to be still asleep...

Well, if that's the case the sleep/early morning slightly awake but still dreaming/awake percentages are about 89% sleep, 10.9 percent slightly awake but still dreaming and .1 percent just barely awake enough to put on my shoes.

But I'm OK with that right now, which is nice. Your "I/agenda ARE reality" comment was helpful in this regard, particularly that the mind's attempt to separate things out is just an attempt to feel in control. Had a crazy spinning mind while out in the woods today-- there's an awareness of what I'm missing when my head's like that (eg., disconnection from trees, sky, earth, etc.) but today i just let it be with amused noticing. In a way, even dropping the thought with the label "imagined" has an aggressive quality to it. Amused noticing seems more helpful.

Also, have generally made a point of not reading other people's strings on this site as Eloratea had suggested that focusing on my own experience now was more useful. However, I randomly clicked on one the other day and read a bit of it and came across this link: reallifeenlightenment.com/enlightenment-basic/is-no-self-an-absolute-fact/ Generally helpful, but this line caught my eye: "the body functions independently of thoughts"... and I wondered about it. Obviously the heart beats without thought, but also the thought "I'd like a glass of water" appears to direct the body towards the faucet. I have been noticing that as part of my interest in exploring the edges of life taking care of itself (which hasn't been so much "not doing" as not worrying about doing), that I'll set out to do one thing and then find myself doing something else all together. I'm sure this has always been true, but with a relaxing of planning/controlling/vigilance thoughts, there seems to be more of this taking place. "Oh, this is what I'm doing right now." In any case, this seems more like unconscious thoughts trumping conscious ones, not body trumping thought. So what am I missing?

Also, this brings me to an interesting moment the other day when I got home from work and was walking up the stairs and the thought arose, "Are you going to check in with Vince or are you going to watch a movie? Are you gonna choose freedom or distraction?" And what arose next was me watching a movie, which was mostly met with "Oh this is what's happening now" though there was awareness of the thought, "i'm not committed enough to actually awaken" hovering outside my window. obviously, if there's no "i" to choose, then there's just the seeing of all of this. but i do know that there's still some notion of me having to "do" something here to "get" something. or even worse, having to "be" something that i'm not and thus feeling the impossibility of "getting" that something.

anyway, that's my sharing for the day.
peace to you--
ix

[vinceschubert]

there's an awareness of what I'm missing when my head's like that

That awareness stimulates the brain re-wiring. The Recognition changes the neuronal connections.

but today i just let it be with amused noticing.

and this accelerates the change. It's like a permission is given to evolve. (it's where i have a chuckle, but amused noticing is good too.)

the label "imagined" has an aggressive quality to it

yes, some terms come with cultural baggage (judgements).

this seems more like unconscious thoughts trumping conscious ones, not body trumping thought.

Ah, this is a big one, as it is one of those basic assumptions that much is built on, that turns out to be false.
We can blame Freud for this one.
There isn't one part of the mind trying to dominate another. Here are some things i expressed about unconscious mind; http://vince-wisingup.blogspot.com.au/s ... cious+mind
Post dating all of this is a more recent story about unconscious mind. It says that body is the unconscious. It's still the brain but it happens in the body control part (reptilian ?) It goes like this; The mind believes something and after enough repetition it is sure that there needs be no variation on that, so it assigns the body to do the job without needing to refer to mind (conscious). Permission is given to unquestioningly carry out that job. It becomes a reflex action. Stimulus and response. Shoelaces need tying, just do it. No need to even think about it.
From this perspective there is a need to make all of these things conscious again, at least until they are examined for fantasy vs reality components. This happens as opportunity allows. No need to DO anything.

i do know that there's still some notion of me having to "do" something here to "get" something

Residual habit. How fundamental is this teaching. What you are worth is directly related to your skill at functioning within the story (cultural story)
Good noticing.
You have almost noticed that "THIS IS IT" (Hahaaha...)