Mike11

[Mike11]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

There is a misunderstanding in how I relate to all that's going on. LU will help to see what's actually going on.

What are you looking for at LU?

Good question. I want to truly see and feel that there is no real inherent self. I know the theory and embarrassingly enough I told the theory to other people. But I haven't seen it. Maybe a glimpse or two. An experience here and a real wow moment there. Done with exciting experiences. Done with fancy theory. I'm just feeling done. Feels like I know less know then I did 10 years ago when I started with the "spiritual" stuff. Need some help. Let's get this done.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

Questions and feedback based on my answers. I tried to work these things out on my own. I need guidance and someone to focus me. I keep getting stuck in stories. Tired of endless loop of "myself". Left ot my own devices I keep the interest and intensity for a while but don't necessarily stick to what I need to reflect on and of course, don't see the blind spots. So some guidance and pointers are duly needed.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

10 year mediation practice. A fair amount study of Buddhist scriptures and involvement in a Buddhist sangha.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Anastacia42]

Good morning/evening,

My name is Stacy & we can have a conversation here. I like where you said, "Let's get this done." That's great. Yes, let's.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Lovvng,

[Mike11]

Hello Stacy,
Thank you for doing this. Much appreciated.

How will life change?

Don’t know. Got a hunch life will still be a rollercoaster of change, joys, pains and surprises.

How will you change?

I have an idea that responses to things that happen will be different. And that I will have a different relationship to thoughts.

What will be different?

I hope to be able to take all the stories I keep telling less seriously. To not believe so many of them. And mabye to not create so many new ones all the time. I seem to create a lot of unnecessary drama in my own mind.

What is missing?

Well not sure what’s missing. An understanding maybe? Rather than missing something I seem to add a lot all time.

/Mike

[Anastacia42]

Hi Mike,

Very good. Your expectations are relatively reasonable.

You're welcome.

I'll assume you read the 2 links or will when you see this. Please be sure to answer every question. It saves me a lot of time & irritation.

What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been, and never will be?

Loving,

[Mike11]

Hi Stacy,

I'll assume you read the 2 links or will when you see this.

Yes

What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been, and never will be?

Resistance. The same feeling I had when in school at math test when the questions were to hard, anxiety about not getting it. The mind starts to race, trying to find ways to invalidate the questions. Trying to find fancy ways to circumvent it.

/Mike

[Anastacia42]

Thank you.

Yes, that question is meant to check for any fears. Good to know. If fear becomes an obstacle, or comes up strongly, please let me know and we will deal with it directly. You can't do it "wrong."

What you are seeking already exists. We only need to remove the mental stories that are keeping you from seeing. The exercises I will provide will help you to do that.

So, this is how to LOOK:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Loving,

[Mike11]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

That was very clear. And very helpful to have as reference going forward (especially the bit about emotions and the content of thoughts not being direct experience).
Thank you.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the quick reply. I'm at work, but I want to give you some more to chew on.

Resistance. The same feeling I had when in school at math test when the questions were to hard, anxiety about not getting it. The mind starts to race, trying to find ways to invalidate the questions. Trying to find fancy ways to circumvent it.

So, "resistance," is akin to an emotion - it is Sensation plus content of thought. I often capitalize AE (Actual Experience), but not "story."

Notice where you feel this in your body? Check your gut. What sensation is there when you feel what you are labeling "resistance?"

Do you really want to know the truth, even if it means giving up cherished beliefs?

Remember to QUOTE, then reply underneath outside of the quote. Video instructions here:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Use the PREVIEW button, please. to make sure it looks right before you hit "send."

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

This is an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought arising.

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists *exactly* like the one above.

It is important that they match the lists above, please. We are learning to identify Actual or Direct Experience.

Much love,

[Mike11]

Hello again,

What sensation is there when you feel what you are labeling "resistance?

A diffuse churning in the lower belly. Prickly sensations around the solar plexus. Stiffness around jaws.

Do you really want to know the truth, even if it means giving up cherished beliefs?

Yes, I am feed up with beliefs and stories.

Remember to QUOTE, then reply underneath outside of the quote.

Think I got the hang of it, looks alright on the preview. Tell me if it looks off on your end, then I can try to change browser to see if that helps.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists *exactly* like the one above.

Been doing it throughout the evening yesterday and today. I written down five of them.

Sitting in chair listening to music in the evening:
Seeing corner of table and sofa behind it, simply= image/color
Smelling lingering aftershave, simply = smell
Feeling slight ache in foot and warmth, simply = sensation
Unpleasant weird taste in mouth, simply = taste
Hearing music and my own breath, simply = sound
Thought about brushing teeth, simply = thought

Looking out of window at night:
Seeing lights from windows and Christmas lights on balconies, simply = image/color
Smelling nothing, simply = smell
Feeling warmth around stomach and ears, weight of the arms, simply = sensation
Taste slight metallic, simply = taste
Hearing a roof fan, cars, simply = sound
Thought about should go to bed, simply = thought.

Eating breakfast:
Seeing bowl of assorted fruits and nuts, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee and vanilla, simply = smell
Feeling hardness of spoon in hand, simply = sensation
Tasting apple and oatmeal, simply = taste
Hearing the crunching of the apple, simply = sound
Thought about meeting later, simply = thought

At work in front of computer:
Seeing screen with progress bar, simply = image/color
Smelling nothing, simply = smell
Feeling pressure from chair, warm plastic around computer mouse, simply = feeling
Tasting slight sweet, simply = taste
Hearing different fans and A/C and my breath, simply = hearing
Thought about where to eat lunch, simply = thought

At home on the computer:
Seeing lower part of computer screen and upper part of keyboard and my hands, simply = image/color
Smelling slightly stuffy air, simply = smell
Feeling texture of plastic keys, pressure around the wrist, slight aches around lower back, simply = feeling
Tasting citrus like taste from lemonade, simply = taste
Hearing music, children from outside, sounds from kitchen, simply = sound
Thought about changing the music, simply = thought

Hope you doing well
/Mike

[Anastacia42]

Hi Mike,

Yes. I love it when clients follow instructions. At the same time, I want you to keep in mind that this won't be about right answers. The act of LOOKING is how you will SEE that there is no self.

This also means that it can be useful to repeat exercises, since it's the LOOKING that matters.

Let's take this to the next level.

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. If the picture below doesn't show up, just Google for a pictue of an apple.

https://www.freeimages.com/photo/apple-1562592

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

Remember that it is essential to be relaxed doing the exercises. Straining and stressing and thinking will prevent SEEING. You can't make thoughts go away. Just ignore them.

Much love,

[Mike11]

Hello again,

This was a bit tricky, good advice to have fun with it and be relaxed.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Well I can know for sure the content of a thought, for example the specific words in the specific thought. But what they refer to, or are about, is just…well referring.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

There is color and shape/form that give rise to the thought apple. I hold the apple so it is also the sensation of holding it, the weight, texture, the temperature. So there is a whole lot of direct experience that is pointing towards an apple really being here. So the direct experience is pointing toward, adding up to = apple, the thought apple, the label apple. Is that the same as an apple really being here? Sure feels like an apple that is here. Ah, yes, feels like so then there is thought ABOUT ’apple’. But holding an apple, looking at it, there is an apple here. This thing I am holding is really screaming, I am an apple, I am here haha. But ok, lets break down what going on with the apple screaming I am here. I have the sensations, seeing the familiar color/shape, the thought apple. All that combined makes me want to answer, yes there is really an apple here.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

’Apple’ taste can be found in actual experience, but that is not the same as ’apple’ being found in actual experience. Same goes for color/shape labeled as ’apple’, i.e. seeing something that looks like an apple, but seeing something that looks like an ’apple’ is not the same as ’apple’ being found in actual experience. Same goes for sensation and smell (although there is no smell in this case).

However, is an apple actually known?

Well, the thing that is actually known is direct experience. ’Apple’ is a convenient label. But it is a label. Apple is not direct experience, so then apple can not be actually known. There can be the experience of the taste with the label apple though, that kan be known.

/Mike

[Anastacia42]

Hi Mike,

Looks like you talked yourself through it. At first the content of thought insisted there was an "apple."

All that combined makes me want to answer, yes there is really an apple here.

But then you seem to have landed on:

’Apple’ is a convenient label. But it is a label. Apple is not direct experience, so then apple can not be actually known.

which is true. We are going for what is verifiably true, what never goes away in AE/DE, the 5 senses and Thought Arising, but not its content. Are you getting that? This is how to LOOK in Actual Experience. This is where it becomes clear there is no self to be found in the 5 senses or Thought Arising.

Let's look closer at Thoughts Arising:

Observing Thoughts

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.

Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Look closely and let me know how that goes for you.

Loving,

[Mike11]

Hello!

We are going for what is verifiably true, what never goes away in AE/DE, the 5 senses and Thought Arising, but not its content. Are you getting that?

Yes. What often happens is that I catch myself out again and again trying to think my way around this and getting quite tense, then recognizing what’s going and let go of all those thoughts about thoughts, which each time feels like a relief.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Don’t know where they come from, they are just there and then gone. And can’t know where they go.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, its there, then gone.

Can you predict your next thought?

Some of that weirdness that pops up nobody can predict.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Unfortunately this is not possible.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Wouldn’t that be lovely. This is defenitily not possible.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I have no control over that.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

I do not have that ability and can’t see how that could be possible.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Yes this is very interesting. Thoughts about thoughts want to explain and order earlier thoughts, so it makes up a story, for example: ”I figured this out by first going from there to there and coming to this conclusion”. But it doesnt really match what is actually going on, what is going on is much more strange.

/Mike

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, Mike,

Yes, all true - and yes, it seems very strange when we focus this way and LOOK.

Here is another fun way to LOOK:

Mind labeling experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Post this list.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

Post this list, too.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Describe this.


Relax, have fun. Looking forward to your replies.

[Mike11]

Hello Stacy,

I am sitting in comfy chair
I am looking at computer screen
I am hearing children playing
I am slightly nauseous
I am pleasantly warm
I am tired
I am feeling pressure around lower back
I am thinking about my posture
I am thinking about how much time is left in exercise
I am hearing traffic
I am seeing light from lamp in hallway
I am feeling prickly sensations around big toe
I am changing posture
I am breathing
I am thinking about that I can’t smell my aftershave
I am having pleasant sensations in my legs
I am hearing sounds from construction site
I am having pleasant sensations in my hands
I am hearing alarm clock


sitting in chair
breathing
hearing child crying
painful sensations in foot
seeing floor
seeing hands
pressure around lower back
scratching cheek
blinking
slight nausea
breathing
weight from watch on wrist
thoughts about exercise
sounds from traffic
toothpaste taste
energy around solar plexus
slight pain left shoulder
noises, car or wind
short shallow breaths
seeing floor
seeing cables
feeling itch on upper lip
itch in ear
scratching ear
hearing alarm

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The ”I ” one feels elaborated and indulgent. While the other feels more direct. It feels more true. It is more true. It is not added on something on top. Or added something in front.

2. What is here without labels?

Hearing sounds. Tasting tastes. Feeling bodily senstations. Thoughts arising. Smelling smells. Seeing colors/forms.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

It does affect the experience by limiting it. There is a tendency to be ”done” after the label is applied. For me this is most obvious in relation to broad labels as ”sad”, ”angry” and so forth.
For example, a whole lot of experience is going on, I label it as ”being sad”, I can easily stop there. But If I instead pay attention to what is going on, what are these mass of sensations that I in this moment is labeling sad, it turns out that it is quite a lot going on and that it is changing constantly.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Describe this.

Yes, everything gets ”closer”. Like everything gets ”bigger”. Filling out the body, vibrant. The easiest word to use would be direct.

Hope you doing well,
/Mike