thread for Alreadyfree, asking Forgetment to guide me

[alreadyfree]

Hi Kay

Thanks for your email.

If an apple cannot be found in actual experience, then how could taste, smell etc be that of an apple?

The answer is that thought says that taste, smell etc are that of an apple. These thought come from memory - which is more thought.

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Just to make sure it is clear…actual experience of a thought is the THOUGHT ITSELF and not the content of the thought. For example: “I am sitting on a chair” is a thought. The label “I” is not AE of a person/self but is the AE of thought The label “sitting” is not AE of sitting but is the AE of thought The label “chair” is not AE of a chair but is AE of thought. Is this all clear?

Is this all clear? Sort of. I'm not sure that said light bulb has gone on yet. I'm very relieved you said that this does get easier....... with dedicated practise, an open mind & distinguishing looking from thought. It just seems very complex & subtle. I keep wondering if I'm trying too hard, should it be this difficult, is it beyond me, will I fail, am I taking too long? etc. Do others fail at this & give up etc? I also feel I'm drowning in words explaining all this.

So, let’s take a look at an object that thought labels as ‘chair’.

The label ‘chair’ is AE of thought and not AE of a chair.
Colour labelled as ‘chair’ is AE of colour and not AE of a chair.
Sensation (touch) labelled as ‘chair’ is AE of sensation and not AE of a chair
Thought ABOUT a chair – what it is, what it is made from, what its purpose is..is AE of thought and not AE of a chair.

So, label + colour + sensation + thoughts are known, however is a chair actually known?

The answer is no (hopefully).

Yes of course it gets easier. But as I have said, it depends on how committed and dedicated you are to actually seeing what is being pointed at? There will be times of confusion, doubt, resistance and anger, as well as the fear of not being able to ‘get it’ and what that means to you. The following was written by a seeker who went through the forum – and is something to be aware of throughout. So just how dedicated, how willing are you to do this exploration when it seems a little difficulty in the beginning is already putting doubts in your mind?

I believe I certainly have sufficient commitment, dedication & willingness to do this exploration. And I accept all that the quote from a seeker says.

I accept that I need to practise this exercise sufficiently for the light bulb to go on & get brighter...... and not just think about it when I'm reading your email. I'm wondering if there is a concise summary of exactly what I should practise away from my laptop, so that I don't need to keep re-reading your last email email (& previous ones) over & over & over. I'm also wondering whether if you were explaining this to me face-to-face it would be much much easier & quicker & less effortful.

For what it's worth, my concise summary of what I must practise frequently away from my laptop is:

1. look at an object & try to look at it using AE, rather than thinking about the object. That is, what do I SEE, HEAR, touch (sensation), smell, taste?

2. what thoughts am I aware of while looking at the object..... but only the bare (face value) thoughts rather than the content of the thoughts, or thoughts about thoughts, or labels & concepts. That is, don't be swept away by other SECONDARY thoughts that may arise (interpretations, meaning etc).

3. don't look for too long as this encourages secondary thoughts to arise. And besides, all this effort may lead to a headache. Do I get a mark out of 10? Just kidding!

For what it's worth, it's taken about 2 hours to read, process, think about & reply to your email. I'm also still getting used to using this website page with it's quote function & save draft functions (without suddenly losing my email, which has happened a few times in previous days). Yes I know you recommend saving it all on Word, but having no knowledge of that it would add more time to learn & master that. But I'm not complaining.

Phil

[alreadyfree]

PS there's some anomaly in the email just sent in the first part, related to the quote function. I unsuccessfully tried to fix it. Apologies for that.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Phil,

If an apple cannot be found in actual experience, then how could taste, smell etc be that of an apple?

The answer is that thought says that taste, smell etc are that of an apple. These thought come from memory - which is more thought.

Yes…it is only thought that suggests that the actual experience of taste, smell, colour etc are that of an apple. So in this instance, thought is pointing to thoughts about thought ie a story.

Try this with other food ie cheese, chocolate, ice-cream, other fruit! Have some fun with it.

For what it's worth, my concise summary of what I must practise frequently away from my laptop is:

1. look at an object & try to look at it using AE, rather than thinking about the object. That is, what do I SEE, HEAR, touch (sensation), smell, taste?

Just keep it clear and simple and use colour, sound, sensation, smell and taste. It's best not to interchange seeing with colour, hearing with sound, feeling with sensation. Keep it clear and simple. I will give you an exercise soon that you can do throughout your day. But first, I want you to have a couple more examples of looking at what AE is, so that you become clear.

2. what thoughts am I aware of while looking at the object..... but only the bare (face value) thoughts rather than the content of the thoughts, or thoughts about thoughts, or labels & concepts. That is, don't be swept away by other SECONDARY thoughts that may arise (interpretations, meaning etc).

Just observe all thoughts when you can, without categorising them and without forcing yourself to. Be patient with yourself and trying to 'get it' will only bring with it frustration, anger, resistance etc. We will look closer at the nature of thought a little further on!

3. don't look for too long as this encourages secondary thoughts to arise. And besides, all this effort may lead to a headache. Do I get a mark out of 10? Just kidding!

It sounds like you are making looking, which is simple, into something that needs concentrated effort. When you look at a chair, just see it as colour. Nothing more is needed than that. You look at a dog, see it as colour…nothing more is needed than that. You see the sky, see it as colour, nothing more is needed than that. I just want you to become aware of colour itself, and not the label that thoughts labels the colour as ie specific objects. When you look at the TV remote. Thought will automatically label it...it doesn't matter...all you then need to do is see that the remote is simply AE of colour. You need do nothing more that. Just practice with colour for now.

So, to make it clearer...let's look at a 'table'.
If you look at a table, and for the sake of this experiment, let’s say it is the colour brown. Just notice the label 'table' and then ignore/put aside the label ‘table’...you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the raw experience of colour.
Let me know how you go with other seeming objects.


Sending love,
Kay

[alreadyfree]

Hi Kay

Your email has made it simpler & clearer - thank you.

I have been doing the exercise in the way you suggested, by simply focussing on colour. That makes it much easier. I've been just looking at objects & noting the colour. That is, the only thoughts that arise are: 1. the label of the object (eg. cup, phone, table, wall etc). 2. the label of the colour ("blue, red, brown" etc).

Your instruction (below) seems to then take it 1 step further.

If you look at a table, and for the sake of this experiment, let’s say it is the colour brown. Just notice the label 'table' and then ignore/put aside the label ‘table’...you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the raw experience of colour.
Let me know how you go with other seeming objects.

This seems easy to do. I look at an object and, as you say, notice the label of the object. I then notice the label of the colour. I then am looking at the object with no further thoughts arising.......in a calm, relaxed & effortless way. It feels like gazing at an object in meditation, with the mind still & silent.

I hope I'm on the right track. I'm also re-reading the LU book, which is helpful & inspiring.

Thanks for your help.

Phil

[forgetmenot]

Hi Phil,

I have been doing the exercise in the way you suggested, by simply focussing on colour. That makes it much easier. I've been just looking at objects & noting the colour. That is, the only thoughts that arise are: 1. the label of the object (eg. cup, phone, table, wall etc). 2. the label of the colour ("blue, red, brown" etc).

Can you see in this, how, thought either points to AE, or to thoughts about thoughts? For example, the label ‘brown’ points to AE of colour, and the label ‘table’ points to AE of thought. The content of the label 'table' (thought) are ensuing thoughts that arise about a table, what it is, does etc, and are thoughts about thought because they are thoughts about the label 'table'.

Label 'table' is AE of thought and not AE of a table
Colour labelled 'table' is AE of colour and not AE of a table
Thoughts about 'table', what it is, does etc are thought ABOUT a table and are AE of thought and not AE of a table.

Does the colour itself suggest in any way that it is a table, or does thought overlay colour with suggestions of colour being a table?

Can a table be found in the thoughts themselves, or only thoughts about a table?

So, when we look, what is actually known, is label (thought) + colour + thoughts about a table. But can a table actually be known? Can a table be found as actual experience?

Let’s try something different to colour. Let’s try sensation. Do this exercise several times throughout your day. Take in a couple of deep breaths to clear the mind and relax and have fun with it.

This exercise is done with closed eyes. Just notice any ‘mental’ images and thoughts that appear and put them aside ie ignore them.

Place a hand on a table and close your eyes.
Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on table' and how many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and table) or is there just the actual experience of sensation?

If you look at a table, and for the sake of this experiment, let’s say it is the colour brown. Just notice the label 'table' and then ignore/put aside the label ‘table’...you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the raw experience of colour.
Let me know how you go with other seeming objects.

This seems easy to do. I look at an object and, as you say, notice the label of the object. I then notice the label of the colour. I then am looking at the object with no further thoughts arising.......in a calm, relaxed & effortless way. It feels like gazing at an object in meditation, with the mind still & silent.

Wonderful! Continue doing this as often as you can.

Warmly, Kay

[alreadyfree]

Hi Kay

Does the colour itself suggest in any way that it is a table, or does thought overlay colour with suggestions of colour being a table?

No, the colour itself does not suggest that it is a table. eg. The colour brown may also apply to chair. So yes, thought overlays colour with suggestions of being a table.

Can a table be found in the thoughts themselves, or only thoughts about a table?

The table can be found ONLY in thoughts about the table.

So, when we look, what is actually known, is label (thought) + colour + thoughts about a table. But can a table actually be known? Can a table be found as actual experience?

The table can't actually be known in direct experience. All that is known by actual experience is the sensation of colour, which thought then labels as brown etc. If a person living in the jungle in a primitive tribe was shown a table....... & they had never seen, used or heard of such a thing......all they would see is a strange object which they may label a colour (from their language).

Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on table' and how many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and table) or is there just the actual experience of sensation?

There is only 1 thing found, which is the sensation of hand on table. Any thoughts of "table" or "hand" are just thoughts about the sensation & so are not actual experience. They are merely interpretations & labels about actual experience.

Thanks Kay
Phil

[forgetmenot]

Hi Phil,

Nice LOOKING! It seems like you are getting your head around it nicely!

Okay, so here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily ACTIVITIES, OBJECTS AND EMOTIONS simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought. Make sure you include some emotions in this exercise. It’s good to start to get a handle on what emotions actually are.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Kay

[alreadyfree]

Hi Kay

I'm trying to email daily, but the electricity was off in my street all day yesterday for maintenance - sorry.

Report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Doing this exercise seemed straight forward. As I write this I notice:
the sensation of touching my laptop, the sound of a car passing my house, seeing a blue pen next to me, noticing thoughts that arise & quickly pass.

At breakfast I noticed the taste of a pear & the smell of a banana. I also noticed anger at opening a 12 egg carton & finding none of the eggs could be removed without breaking them as they all stuck firmly to the carton.

I've also been thinking about the LU process & the 100% honesty requirement. A lot of resistance & doubt has arisen, mainly as the guiding process seems very mysterious. As you may recall, I've been a very dedicated spiritual seeker for about 40 years. I've read & heard an enormous amount about awakening & "the search". Awakening in itself seems a very mysterious & paradoxical subject, no matter how much I study it

I could read many of the guiding dialogues you've had with people & those in the LU book. I feel I've read enough. I wonder about the people ("students") who didn't complete the guiding process & why that happened. Did it become futile, too difficult, too slow? etc etc.

To me, the greatest paradox of awakening is that when one awakens it is seen that nothing new has been acquired, but only the realisation of what has always been there. What has been sought for perhaps decades has always & already been there.

I know this isn't meant to be a discussion about awakening. I have very little idea of how these guiding exercises work. As mentioned before, it seems similar to exercises in A Course in Miracles so presumably is a reliable method. But I'm wary of "one size fits all" methods, including meditation.

It's not that I lack motivation or commitment. Maybe I should quit all forms of seeking, & just return to pursuing worldly pleasures, like most people do. Anyway, I'm giving this feedback as part of the 100% honesty requirement. However, I suspect you will tell me I have misinterpreted that policy & that it only applies to the exercises or some other reason.

Kind regards
Phil

[forgetmenot]

Hi Phil,

Report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Doing this exercise seemed straight forward. As I write this I notice:
the sensation of touching my laptop, the sound of a car passing my house, seeing a blue pen next to me, noticing thoughts that arise & quickly pass.

At breakfast I noticed the taste of a pear & the smell of a banana. I also noticed anger at opening a 12 egg carton & finding none of the eggs could be removed without breaking them as they all stuck firmly to the carton.

The practice was for you to actually break down experiences into AE, as per example given with the exercise. You are narrating what is being experienced and not actually telling me what your direct actual experience of these experiences are.

Would you do so please, as per example, so I can see that you have actually grokked AE and what looking is.

I've also been thinking about the LU process & the 100% honesty requirement. A lot of resistance & doubt has arisen, mainly as the guiding process seems very mysterious. As you may recall, I've been a very dedicated spiritual seeker for about 40 years. I've read & heard an enormous amount about awakening & "the search". Awakening in itself seems a very mysterious & paradoxical subject, no matter how much I study it.

Of course it’s mysterious because it’s a completely different way of looking at life in order to see what the actual reality of life is. Studying awakening is a dead end road because it is simply reading about awakening, it doesn’t actually point to how one does this, or give the reader the experience needed in order to do so. If it just took reading books…then surely, you would already see what reality is, and you would no longer be suffering?

So doubt and resistance have appeared….and? It’s all part n parcel of this process. The seeming illusory self isn’t going to give up without putting up barriers. Suffering is a comfort zone…it’s familiar whereas none of this is…it’s unfamiliar and brings with it fears…doubt and resistance being part of those fears. Challenging beliefs is not for the faint hearted, challenging beliefs turns the world you thought you knew, upside down. Did you break down resistance into actual experience to actually see what is appearing instead of simply going with an old thought stream?

The label ‘resistance’ is AE of thought and not AE of resistance
Sensation labelled ‘resistance’ is AE of sensation and not AE of resistance
Colour labelled “I/me/body” is AE of colour and not AE of a ‘I/me/body’ in resistance.
Thoughts about ‘resistance’ and the story of resistance are AE of thought and not AE of resistance.

So what is actually known is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about resistance….but resistance is not known.

It's not that I lack motivation or commitment. Maybe I should quit all forms of seeking, & just return to pursuing worldly pleasures, like most people do. Anyway, I'm giving this feedback as part of the 100% honesty requirement. However, I suspect you will tell me I have misinterpreted that policy & that it only applies to the exercises or some other reason.

I am not going to tell you anything. I am not here to convince you of anything…that is not my role. You either trust the process or you don’t. Entirely up to you. Not everyone is ready, and some will never be ready to challenge their belief system. Why some people finish the process and others don't is none of my business, and does not concern me. Each individual is responsible for their own awakening process. I am here as a resource...nothing more.

Warm regards
Kay

[alreadyfree]

Hi Kay,

I've been reviewing all your previous emails so I can better understand this process. I intend to write more later today (Monday).

Cheers, Phil

[alreadyfree]

Hi Kay

Would you do so please, as per example, so I can see that you have actually grokked AE and what looking is.

ACTIVITY, making a cup of tea:
seeing colour & shape of cup,
smelling honey
feeling warm cup (sensation)
taste of tea (taste)
hearing drinking sound (sound)
thought of drinking tea (thought)

OBJECT, book
seeing the book - colour & shape
feeling the cover (sensation)
open the book - sound (of page turning)
AE of thought (about the book)

EMOTIONS
fear - sensation of
AE of fear thought, but not following ensuing thoughts such as: why is there fear?, what should I do? etc

Regards
Phil

[forgetmenot]

Hi Phil,

seeing the book - colour & shape

Without thought, how is it known that there are shapes? Shapes are simply different patterns of colour....hence the simplicity of just AE of colour.

Okay...the following is an exercise which points out the difference between AE and content of thought. This distinction is important.

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “this is a cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as the actual experience of arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. In other words, the picture/idea that thought is ‘painting’ is the content of thought, and it is fictional.
Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

Warmly, Kay

[alreadyfree]

Hi Kay

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as the actual experience of arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. In other words, the picture/idea that thought is ‘painting’ is the content of thought, and it is fictional.
Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

My understanding of the distinction between AE & content of thought is this:

AE is the experience (perception) of anything in the immediate environment, including thought but without getting lost in the content of thought. The immediate environment is experienced via the 5 senses (sight, sound, touch, taste , smell).

eg. I have a thought "what shall I do this afternoon?" When I experience that thought arising it is an AE. However, if I then follow the content of that thought it ceases to be a real AE. eg. I think "I'll go for a walk, where shall I go?, maybe I'll do some housework, no I don't feel like housework etc". These are secondary "unreal" thoughts following from the primary AE thought "what shall I do this afternoon?".

I rarely think in images so images are less of a problem. Also, having previously done a lot of meditation & mindfulness practise, I usually soon notice when I'm lost in thought & so can then return to the present & AE. I do this by noticing my surroundings or returning my attention to whatever activity I'm doing.

Hope I'm on the right track.

Thanks for your help.
Phil

[forgetmenot]

Hi Phil,

AE is the experience (perception) of anything in the immediate environment, including thought but without getting lost in the content of thought. The immediate environment is experienced via the 5 senses (sight, sound, touch, taste , smell).

For something to be experienced means that there must be an experiencer of experience. Where in colour, sound, sensation, smell, taste or thought can an experiencer of experience be found?

eg. I have a thought "what shall I do this afternoon?" When I experience that thought arising it is an AE. However, if I then follow the content of that thought it ceases to be a real AE. eg. I think "I'll go for a walk, where shall I go?, maybe I'll do some housework, no I don't feel like housework etc". These are secondary "unreal" thoughts following from the primary AE thought "what shall I do this afternoon?".

Yes...lovely!

Okay…so let’s move on and look at how thoughts work. Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about around 15-20 minutes or more if necessary and notice arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Kay

[alreadyfree]

Hi Kay

Apologies for the delay in replying due to: 1. electricity off again for 1 day in my street last week for maintenance.
2. unable to login yesterday which took 1-2 hours to fix. Was unable to request help from LU Admin as that's only possible if one is first logged in. I finally found help via the LU Facebook group.

Where are they coming from and going to?

The conventional answer (which I don't accept) is from "my mind". To me it's more accurate to say "from the one universal mind or collective consciousness". Where do they go? They simply quickly evaporate, like a puff of smoke or steam.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, nothing at all. They arise without any intention of involvement by me. Of course, if I choose to ignore your instruction & look at the CONTENT of the thought, then I am doing something to create the thoughts.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

If I follow your instructions ('just let thoughts appear as they appear......without doing anything at all etc....") then the answer is no. If I chose to deviate from your instructions & chose a particular thought (eg "what will I eat tonight?") then that would lead to a chain of different thoughts (eg "pizza, fish n chips etc").

Can you predict your next thought?

If I follow your instructions, the answer is No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No, provided I follow your instructions. If I deviate from your instructions & deliberately chose a pleasant thought (eg "I like pizza") then pleasant thoughts may ensue ("when shall i eat one?, where shall I get it?" etc).

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

No, provided I follow your instructions by completely ignoring what the thought is saying (the content of the thought).

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

There's no logical ordered sequence (if I follow your instructions). It is just another thought that says "these thoughts are insequence", "they take content from previous thought" etc.
It seems to me that the nature of thought & mind is that it always tries to maintain it's momentum by following chains of thoughts - whether they appear to be in a ordered sequence or not. If I was experiencing thoughts that seemed to have a logical sequence (eg. while trying to mentally solve a problem) then I may choose to follow that sequence, in the hope that it MAY lead to a solution or insight. Of course, many times a solution/insight doesn't happen. This can lead to useless worry & obsessing.

Regards
Phil