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[vinceschubert]

There is no person creating thoughts, feelings, etc. They just come up on their own.

Yes, they are the result of an infinite number of conditions, including habit which is a conditioned response.
The feeling of an I is just that, a habit. It is based on all of the stories you have been told since infancy, and as you point out your parents and others often got it wrong. Of course they were only passing on their interpretation of what they were told.
If somebody says something nice to you, then you feel good. If they say something awful to you then you feel bad. If you see a snake that turns out to be a bit of rope, you feel fear.
So tell me, are feelings any more credible than thoughts?
The point i make about being on auto pilot, is that everything that needs to happen, does happen. Groceries get bought, computers get used, etc.
In fact, this is how they get done already. This is how they were done always.
Do you see that it's an illusion that a self is required to run the show ?

[GotIt]

So tell me, are feelings any more credible than thoughts?

Feelings feel stronger than thoughts (like a really strong feeling of anger), which makes them feel more credible. So, I want to say yes, feelings are more credible than thoughts, although thinking about it, feelings don't really have any more credibility than thoughts, but that's hard to see. Feelings only have credibility because I give it to them, but it's hard to see that, and I can't quite see it.

The point i make about being on auto pilot, is that everything that needs to happen, does happen. Groceries get bought, computers get used, etc.
In fact, this is how they get done already. This is how they were done always.
Do you see that it's an illusion that a self is required to run the show ?

I see your point about, e.g. when I'm driving the car and zone out, the driving happens on it's own which would point to it being an illusion that a self is required to run the show. I'm having a hard time seeing it in other areas/I just don't see it in other areas.

[vinceschubert]

feelings don't really have any more credibility than thoughts, but that's hard to see. Feelings only have credibility because I give it to them, but it's hard to see that, and I can't quite see it.

Whoa Rose. You see it clearly when you say "Feelings only have credibility because I give it to them" and then you say "but it's hard to see that.."
i guess what you really mean is that there isn't an accompanying feeling of something (satisfaction maybe) with the seeing, or that you don't want to see this because it takes you out of your comfort zone. What say you ?

I'm having a hard time seeing it in other areas/I just don't see it in other areas.

Yes, it's not as clear cut in other areas, but when you think about it there should be a recognition that most of the day happens like this. Of the millions of thoughts that arise every day, most are rubbish, or repetition and have no value for the navigation of daily life. Most of them include an I word or image.
Look again, but without a preconceived conclusion. It happens really fast that mind claims ownership, saying "I did that" so what you really need to do is just be open to an opportunity when something occurs where is is more apparent. You might take a mental snapshot of the happening then investigate the sequence in slow replay. There will be many opportunities to do this. Be relaxed. After all, there is actually no 'you' controlling this. It will just happen (or not).
Does a baby have a choice about being born ?

love

[GotIt]

i guess what you really mean is that there isn't an accompanying feeling of something (satisfaction maybe) with the seeing, or that you don't want to see this because it takes you out of your comfort zone. What say you ?

In re-reading what I wrote or when I was thinking about it as I wrote it, the thought that "feelings only have credibility because I give it to them", came to me for a brief second.

Does a baby have a choice about being born ?

No.

Look again, but without a preconceived conclusion. It happens really fast that mind claims ownership, saying "I did that" so what you really need to do is just be open to an opportunity when something occurs where is is more apparent. You might take a mental snapshot of the happening then investigate the sequence in slow replay. There will be many opportunities to do this. Be relaxed. After all, there is actually no 'you' controlling this. It will just happen (or not).

I'll look at this.

[vinceschubert]

Rose. You are that baby.
Surrender to the process.
Just relax and enjoy the ride. We are not looking for a metamorphosis, just to recognise what IS now.
Nothing will change. Everything will be different.

[GotIt]

Rose. You are that baby.
Surrender to the process.
Just relax and enjoy the ride. We are not looking for a metamorphosis, just to recognise what IS now.
Nothing will change. Everything will be different.

Thanks. I'll do this.

[GotIt]

I've been trying to look at choice, but I think I'm seeing it after the fact, e.g. looking at the question of: did "I" do that?

I'm not seeing it, but I think thoughts come up, and I respond to them, and then I think "I" did it.

So tell me, are feelings any more credible than thoughts?

I don't think feelings are any more credible than thoughts, but I it doesn't feel like that to me or I have a hard time seeing that. Growing up I was taught that feelings don't exist, and that I didn't feel feelings that I was feeling. As an adult, it took me a long time to learn that feelings are real, and to learn how to deal with them. There's a really fine line between acknowledging feelings and not letting them overwhelm you and rule your life, and pushing them away and acting like they don't exist (Note to myself: just because you let them be there without getting an "I" caught up in them, doesn't mean they don't exist and doesn't bring you back to the life of living from a place of the non-existence of feelings.). I never want to go back to acting or living from a place of them not existing (It's like living a lie.). I do want to get to a place of seeing them for what they are and not letting the "I" get hooked into them. Once I learned what feelings are, that they exist and that they are really there, I never, never wanted to not feel them, as feeling them is so much better than not feeling them or living from a place of "they don't exist". You can't be happy if you don't let yourself be sad kind of thing. This doesn't mean I can't see them for what they really are (but maybe I'm scared to let go--I don't know.).

[vinceschubert]

Hmm, it looks like you were conditioned to repress feelings. That can be pressure building.
Rose, Freedom here means all emotions get expressed easily, and without self consciousness. i teared up just reading your post, and feel grateful that this expression of compassion reminds me that you are me.
Your conditioning may result in you not being quite so free (or the opposite) with expressing (a feeling that overflows) emotions, but most likely you will still feel the intensity of them.

thoughts come up, and I respond to them, and then I think "I" did it.

This is the beginning of SEEing.
Thoughts are stimulated by many things including other thoughts. You will respond to many things other than thoughts and you will see how thought arrives later. Keep LOOKing.
While that is happening, ask yourself "Is everything that is within my direct experiencing now, constitute my total reality, NOW ?"

[GotIt]

Your conditioning may result in you not being quite so free (or the opposite) with expressing (a feeling that overflows) emotions, but most likely you will still feel the intensity of them.

I don't think I have a problem with expressing emotions, okay, wait, some emotions are harder to deal with than others, like it's hard to be with someone who is angry. Yes, I still feel the intensity of feelings.

Thoughts are stimulated by many things including other thoughts. You will respond to many things other than thoughts and you will see how thought arrives later. Keep LOOKing.
While that is happening, ask yourself "Is everything that is within my direct experiencing now, constitute my total reality, NOW ?"

"Is everything that is within my direct experiencing now, constitute my total reality, NOW ?"

Reading what you wrote, I think it only constitutes my total reality now because I tell it to, e.g. I decide what to focus on are what to look at that then becomes part of my total reality. There may be other things going on around me that I'm not paying attention to, and they aren't a part of my reality.

And, to answer your question, yes, because now is the only reality there is, any thoughts of what took place in the past or what will take place in the future are just that, thoughts, and not an actually reality (although, say with past thoughts, the past happenings were reality when they happened).

My total reality now is also a false reality that I think is real, but someone else in the same situation I'm in (someone else in this room, etc. would have a different reality (I may like music that's playing and think it's nice. They may hate it, etc.). It's my interpretation of what's going on around me, which may not be an accurate interpretation. So, question to myself, what is the reality of the now, and what is my interpretation of what is going on, that I then believe is real (I'm right. They're wrong, etc.)?

[vinceschubert]

like it's hard to be with someone who is angry.

This is a conditioned response. As such it may continue until experience allows you to see it in action. Without a self to protect or be affronted, responses will be different.

I don't think I have a problem with expressing emotions,

i misunderstood your last post then.

There may be other things going on around me that I'm not paying attention to, and they aren't a part of my reality.

If you are experiencing it, even at a body level (ie without awareness) it is still part of your reality.

the past happenings were reality when they happened

..and may protrude into the present in the form of learned or conditioned reactions.
We are not so concerned in defining current experiencing, at least not in excruciating detail. We are though, interested in where our stories intersect with it (reality) and begin to change it.

I decide what to focus on and what to look at that then becomes part of my total reality.

Doesn't focusing happen because of a whole bunch of conditions ?
Do you think "I will focus on this and not that"?, or do you just find yourself focusing on something ?

[GotIt]

This is a conditioned response. As such it may continue until experience allows you to see it in action. Without a self to protect or be affronted, responses will be different.

I'd love to see it in action.

If you are experiencing it, even at a body level (ie without awareness) it is still part of your reality.

Okay.

We are though, interested in where our stories intersect with it (reality) and begin to change it.

Sitting here, I'm realizing there's the reality of what's happening, e.g. feeling my rear end on the chair, sensations of air on my skin that I then define as hot or cold, etc., and there's the stuff I bring to the here and now, like nervousness from a job interview I had this morning, frustration over some foot problems I'm having, etc. There's what's actually happening (reality), and the views, interpretations, etc. I put on it that may or may not be correct.

Doesn't focusing happen because of a whole bunch of conditions ?

I don't know. Sometimes, yet, sometimes no. I may notice a bright colorful car going by because it sticks out, but I don't notice a normal looking average car or something. And, yes, I probably notice things like, e.g. a "free ice cream" sign, because I know I love ice cream from past conditioning.

Do you think "I will focus on this and not that"?

No, I am just automatically drawn to things.

or do you just find yourself focusing on something ?

I just find myself focusing on something.

Okay, so I can't control/don't control what I look at or what I focus on (in fact, as you would say, there's no "I" to focus on things/focusing on things, it's just this body doing what it does). I think this body does a lot of what it does, I think I only think there's an "I" being in charge or deciding things, as I am seeing a lot of things where I want to look at something or make a decision about something or decide to do something and then it doesn't happen, or this body just goes on and does whatever it wants to do (and I look back at it later and realize I never did the thing I was planning to do, e.g. look something up on the computer).

[vinceschubert]

I'm realizing there's the reality of what's happening, e.g. feeling my rear end on the chair, sensations of air on my skin

Even this is bringing story to reality. Without the story you might say "feeling sensation there and a different sensation there."
Of course communication would be impossible at that level, but just pointing out that there is subtle story telling about butt & chair or air & skin. Direct experiencing doesn't need the why and how added.

I'd love to see it in action.

You will. Ha, i found myself hoping someone would insult me just to test my reaction. It didn't happen quite like that, but there have been a few instances where i would have been offended but instead almost didn't notice it slip on by.

There's what's actually happening (reality), and the views, interpretations, etc. I put on it that may or may not be correct.

This is beautiful. Here is where freedom starts, where appreciation for everything begins. The brain can now start to rewire.

it's just this body doing what it does

Yes, exactly, and hasn't it (essentially) done what is needed ? Real-izing this, you can let go of the tiller. The boat is perfectly capable of steering itself.
Rose, just give me a general report on how things are different for you today...
Can you sense a shift has occurred ?

[GotIt]

Rose, just give me a general report on how things are different for you today...
Can you sense a shift has occurred ?

Unfortunately, no. I don't see any shift. I'm noticing things that happen where I'm not in charge or where they don't happen like I planned them to, but I've been noticing that all along (I decide I want to look something up on the computer, and then later when I get on the computer, I completely forget to look it up.). Things don't seem to be any different for me today than they were yesterday or the day before that, etc.

Yes, exactly, and hasn't it (essentially) done what is needed ?

Not always (see above about looking something up on the computer). (Okay, I'm still breathing.).

[vinceschubert]

I don't see any shift.

Ok, the first you may notice is when you react differently to certain situations.

looking something up on the computer

Sure intentions get diverted. The point i was making was that you could Look and See that the way things happen is the way thing happen, and that is determined by an infinite number of conditions. This includes the effect of believing that it is all controlled by a self.
When you real-ize that when you drop the illusion of being in control, that nothing changes. Everything gets done just the same as it did before, except that now it works better because the illusion of control caused considerable distortion.
This is not something that you can learn or Do.
Just read the above words ABOUT it. Then relax and simply Observe without opinion or judgement.
Something will happen. Seeing something, hearing something or even just thinking something will trigger a discovery of how it works. Just relax.
Relax and Observe.

[GotIt]

relax and simply Observe without opinion or judgement.
Something will happen. Seeing something, hearing something or even just thinking something will trigger a discovery of how it works. Just relax.
Relax and Observe.

Thanks! This (the relax and observe, especially the relax part) is very helpful. I'll work on doing that (relax and simply Observe without opinion or judgement).