Trying to experience the nothing that I am

[PhilipJerzy]

Hi Vivien,

Hope it's ok that I respond to this so soon.

And what is it that could push it away?
Or to choose whether to push it away or not?

There isn't/never was something that pushes it away. There was just thoughts that "thoughts aren't good", or "thoughts shouldn't be happening." Any description of pushing it away or resistance goes into thought story a bit, but that's language that "I" have always used. Now there is just thought arising and no secondary thoughts arguing about the first thought. There was a growing realization that thoughts are ok, even though their content isn't reality. Perhaps a better way to describe it is the content of thought is less often about not wanting about other thoughts. It doesn't really need to be described though, there is just a thought when there is a thought.

What is it exactly that is doing the imagination?

Any way to describe this will end up a thought story. The reading of your instruction to imagine an apple happens, the eyes close, forehead scrunches, apple thought starts imagining. It all just happens without any of it causing the next step and without an I to start it all.

And what is it that has the possibility to believe it to be a real, or not believe it?

There is no actual experience of believing, there is no substance of belief. There is only the apple imagination. Belief "seems" to be happening when focus is ONLY on thoughts. The thought has the word "I" and there is no other experience to say there wasn't an "I" since there was only that thought. Nothing else but the thought. So who could there be to say there is no "I?"
NOBODY, because there is nothing there but the thought. And the next thought arises as "I believed that thought" and again there is nothing but the thought, no self to even prove it wrong, just more thoughts.

And what is doing the exploring?

Exploring is just happening. There is no "I" to decide when to explore or what to explore. There is just the unfolding - a thought arising "is this really what's happening" - the focus shifting to sensations - the noticing of thought and sensations - the noticing of the thoughts being unrelated to what really IS. It all just unfolds.

And what is it that loves exploring?

There are pleasant sensations when inquiring. When a thought is investigated, there is simultaneously pleasant sensation and thoughts say they are connected. In reality there is just a sensation and thinking about the sensation.

Thanks Vivien,

Philip

[Vivien]

Hi Philip,

Thank you for your responses.

How do you see the self/me now?
Are you crystal clear that it is an illusion?

Is there I to awaken?
Is there a gateless gate to cross?

How do you feel right now with all this you found out?
How is the general feeling?
What changed during this investigation?

Vivien

[PhilipJerzy]

Hi Vivien,

How do you see the self/me now?

The self is just an un-investigated thought. An assumption based on a thought containing the word "I" but with no happening in reality to back it up. While there are plenty of un-investigated thoughts about self/containing the word "I" arising through the day, there will never be a real self. As soon as reality is noticed thought content is clearly illusion.

Are you crystal clear that it is an illusion?

While there are many moments in a day where the illusion isn't being investigated, it is crystal clear that it is an illusion. There is no where for it to exist, no experience of self anywhere, just thought story imagination about a self. The only thing that can be not crystal clear that self is an illusion is a thought about self. I

Is there I to awaken?

No, there is only the noticing of what is.

Is there a gateless gate to cross?

Gateless gate is clever phrase. There is nothing/nowhere to go or to cross. There is no gate or anyone to cross the gate. There is only a shift from thought content to reality. Every moment that shift is made is like crossing through a Gateless gate. Gateless because there is no actual movement or real change. Focus just shifts to what was already here.

How do you feel right now with all this you found out?

Quite neutral. Lot's of dramatic thought stories still arise, but they can be simply noticed as having nothing to do with what's really going on. In those moments of noticing reality, the peace of the real moment compared to the chaos/drama of imagination feels quite nice to notice. Things feel more relaxed since focus is more often on that peaceful reality and not dramatic imaginings.

How is the general feeling?

Mostly relaxed and neutral.

What changed during this investigation?

In reality nothing. Thought understanding of what is really going on has changed. The content of thought "appears" to have changed somewhat. Thoughts about "trying to do" and "trying to control" have a lot less thinking around them. The shifting of focus from thought content to sensations/vision/smell/taste/hearing happens more often and with a different context than before. That shifting would happen before but there would always be an underlying thought of "I/my" happening that went un-investigated. Now when focus is on reality any apparent noticing of an "I" or of "experiencing" is quickly investigated and the reality of experience is known alongside the thought.

To sum it up - thoughts are now known to be illusions that can never really be experienced.

Thanks Vivien,

Philip

[Vivien]

Hi Philip,

There is only a shift from thought content to reality. Every moment that shift is made is like crossing through a Gateless gate.

This back and forth shifting is quite natural at the beginning. It’s won’t be a 24/7, for quite a long time. Seeing through the self is just the beginning, just the first step, and not the end. It requires lots of further looking for conditionings to fall away, like a cleaning up for things to gradually stabilize.

So can you that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding of there being no separate self to an experiential recognition of it?

If there has been a shift, could you please describe how the shift itself was felt?

Vivien

[PhilipJerzy]

Hi Vivien,

This back and forth shifting is quite natural at the beginning. It’s won’t be a 24/7, for quite a long time. Seeing through the self is just the beginning, just the first step, and not the end. It requires lots of further looking for conditionings to fall away, like a cleaning up for things to gradually stabilize.

It all feels very natural. There is illusion when there is illusion and clarity when there is clarity and that feels quite all right. In a way it's so different from all the imagined stress before. There is no REAL need for that experience 24/7, there is only what is now and what is now is ok.

So can you that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding of there being no separate self to an experiential recognition of it?

Well there definitely hasn't been an experience of no self like I initially expected. There is just the real experience of any given moment. In that experience there is no experience of a self beyond one that is imagined. When there appears to be a subject noticing object, all that is really experienced is the object with some story around it. This is instantly experiential when it is investigated as there is nothing else to REALLY notice. There are definitely times when it isn't investigated and times when there is just intellectual thinking about it, so I hesitate to say that there is an experiential recognition as that sounds as though the recognition is permanently present. When looking at reality it is recognized and when imagining about reality it is not recognized.

I wouldn't say there is necessarily an experiential recognition of it, more that there is a recognition of what is REALLY present and a separate self is not part of that.

I will add that there was an intellectual understanding of no separate self before joining this forum that is very different from what is recognized now. Now it is crystal clear, at least to the level that has been investigated, the difference between story and real experience. Where before the understanding of no separate self was a thought story as well. Perhaps this is what you're asking. Real experience isn't known through thought now, but experienced as it is.

If there has been a shift, could you please describe how the shift itself was felt?

There has been no shift beyond the shift of focus from thought content to reality that does or doesn't happen in each moment.

There has been no real before and after moment of experiencing that there was no self. Just a continually deepening understanding of what really is and what is just thought.

It's so plain and simple that I almost missed it, as I've been overlooking it this whole life.

Thanks Vivien :)

Philip

[Vivien]

Hi Philip,

This is instantly experiential when it is investigated as there is nothing else to REALLY notice. There are definitely times when it isn't investigated and times when there is just intellectual thinking about it, so I hesitate to say that there is an experiential recognition as that sounds as though the recognition is permanently present.

No, it doesn’t mean that it’s constantly present. Rather that the BELIEF in the existence of an enduring, independent, separate entity is still there or not.

Just as when you were a child you believed in the existence of a Santa. But once it recognized that there was no real Santa, you stopped believing it. But it didn’t mean that Santa-s stopped appearing is shopping malls at the time of Xmas.

I wouldn't say there is necessarily an experiential recognition of it, more that there is a recognition of what is REALLY present and a separate self is not part of that.

Oh, dear Philip, you are making things so complicated.

The experiential recognition doesn’t mean that you literally experience a no-self. How could the absence of a non-existent thing to be experienced? It can only be known form what is here now, by recognizing that the hear-and-now doesn’t contain any self in anywhere. This is what we call the experiential recognition of it. Since it’s seen in experience that all there is what is, and in what is there is no self or me in any shape or form.

I will add that there was an intellectual understanding of no separate self before joining this forum that is very different from what is recognized now. Now it is crystal clear, at least to the level that has been investigated, the difference between story and real experience. Where before the understanding of no separate self was a thought story as well. Perhaps this is what you're asking. Real experience isn't known through thought now, but experienced as it is.

Is it possible that there are some expectations still hiding somewhere, and you are comparing what is being seen to those expectations?

Can you let go ANY expectation, and accept what is here-and-now?
That seeing no-self is not how you imagined to be? And that’s ok?

There has been no real before and after moment of experiencing that there was no self. Just a continually deepening understanding of what really is and what is just thought.

It's so plain and simple that I almost missed it, as I've been overlooking it this whole life.

Dear Philip, there are two options:

- Either there has been no shift from intellectual understanding to actually recognizing it as a fact of reality (of there being no enduring, independent, separate self), and you still believe that there is an independent agency governing life,

- OR, you still have some expectations and you are simply not willing to accept or admit that THIS IS IT.

It seems to me that you have some ideas how you imagine what ‘experiential recognition’ would mean, and you compare what you see with this expectation, with the conclusion: “this is not quite it”.

Please really investigate what you expect to happen.
What would need to happen to say with certainly that you don’t believe in a self-governing agency in charge of life anymore, and that you’ve recognized this to be the fact of reality, since you’ve realized experientially that there is no self here-and-now in any shape or form?

(Not by finding no-self, but seeing that WHAT IS doesn’t contain any self).

Vivien

[PhilipJerzy]

Hi Vivien,

I appreciate your thoroughness.

I think what happened here is a miscommunication.

The experiential recognition doesn’t mean that you literally experience a no-self. How could the absence of a non-existent thing to be experienced? It can only be known form what is here now, by recognizing that the hear-and-now doesn’t contain any self in anywhere. Since it’s seen in experience that all there is what is, and in what is there is no self or me in any shape or form.

This is what I was trying to say. Not that I am expecting to experience something different, just that what is here is what is here. Just the words "experiential recognition of no separate self" did not fit how I would describe it. More like "experiential recognition of experience," maybe even just "experiential experience." Anyway any description of it is a step away from it.

But this is just semantics over the meaning of some words that are a story anyway.

This is what we call the experiential recognition of it.

If experiential recognition is the term you use to notice the experience of seeing what really is then yes there has been a shift to experiential recognition.

Just as when you were a child you believed in the existence of a Santa. But once it recognized that there was no real Santa, you stopped believing it. But it didn’t mean that Santa-s stopped appearing is shopping malls at the time of Xmas.

Yes even when focus is on illusion there is underlying knowing that it is not really what is real, in varying degrees of clarity.

Is it possible that there are some expectations still hiding somewhere, and you are comparing what is being seen to those expectations?

I did not mean to imply that I feel like I'm expecting to find something different. The words "experiential recognition" just weren't quite in my vernacular. There are times when there are thoughts about expectations but in those moments focus shifts to reality and it is noticed that the expectation is just a story and in that there is only what is.

Can you let go ANY expectation, and accept what is here-and-now?
That seeing no-self is not how you imagined to be? And that’s ok?

Yes all expectations are a story placed on what really is. Completely irrelevant from reality.

It's definitely not what I imagined it, and that is ok. It's more than ok it IS, there is no arguing with what is. The phrase "seeing no-self" just sounds silly but I guess it needs to be talked about somehow.

It seems to me that you have some ideas how you imagine what ‘experiential recognition’ would mean, and you compare what you see with this expectation, with the conclusion: “this is not quite it”.

I think this was just arguing of semantics of the phrase. I cannot find anything else beyond what is. I can certainly see that what has been noticed can be noticed deeper, more thoroughly, and more often. But it's as clear as day that what is, IS, and what isn't is not what is. This is felt/heard/smelled/seen/tasted and not thought about.. in other words experienced. Reality cannot be noticed as a thought. So to use your words yes it has been experientially recognized.

What would need to happen to say with certainly that you don’t believe in a self-governing agency in charge of life anymore, and that you’ve recognized this to be the fact of reality, since you’ve realized experientially that there is no self here-and-now in any shape or form?

Reality just needs to be checked and noticed. Is there a self here and now? No. And that's all there is. Thoughts may still think about a self governing agency but thoughts cannot hold up against the noticing of reality.

(Not by finding no-self, but seeing that WHAT IS doesn’t contain any self).

Exactly, I didn't mean to imply that I am waiting to find no-self.

this is not quite it

In a way it does not seem like there is anything else to find. When reality is noticed then everything is found. There is nothing else but what is at that moment, any expectation to experience something different or understand it differently is a story. The thought "this is not quite it" would just be a story.

Thanks Vivien,

Love,

Philip

[Vivien]

Hi Philip,

I think what happened here is a miscommunication.

Yes :)

If experiential recognition is the term you use to notice the experience of seeing what really is then yes there has been a shift to experiential recognition.

I’m glad to hear that.

It's definitely not what I imagined it, and that is ok. It's more than ok it IS, there is no arguing with what is. The phrase "seeing no-self" just sounds silly but I guess it needs to be talked about somehow.

Yes, we have to communicate it somehow.
It’s very good that you don’t have any lingering expectation.

How does it FEEL to see that there is only experience, which doesn’t contain any self-governing entity being in charge of life?

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to have a look?

Vivien

[PhilipJerzy]

Hi Vivien,

It’s very good that you don’t have any lingering expectation.

There are still thoughts about expectation, at times it "seems" that expectations arise, but when they come up and reality is noticed they have no place in what is really happening.

How does it FEEL to see that there is only experience, which doesn’t contain any self-governing entity being in charge of life?

It's a strange experience sometimes because stories still "appear" so real ... until they don't.

All day today I was debating what I should do tonight and occasionally the thought would come "there is no self" but it wasn't actually investigated. And then after the whole day of debating, suddenly reality was noticed under the debate and there was no debating really happening, no later, and no doing. No "I" that can do something later. No "I" controlling what will happen later. Just what was really present. And suddenly that story just drops away, the "debating of what to do tonight" thoughts either don't arise or are translucent, so to speak - easily seen through. Reality becomes more focused on.

It's just so funny how these illusions can still be so strongly believed. Which brings up thinking "oh no what if I didn't get it and I'm not supposed to be believing the illusions anymore." But when that thought arises, reality is noticed and there is nothing to not get. There is no me that can "get it" and so on. But no such descriptions of it, just reality.

How does it FEEL

It's hard to say how it feels. There is no real relationship between felt sensation and the shifting of focus to reality. The sensation is happening. It "seems" more peaceful but the "non-peace" was just imagined anyway.

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to have a look?

All day I have been thinking up a million things that aren't super clear to ask you but noticing that reality is behind each one. Some thought stories appear more complicated than others but they are all thoughts. So every question that comes up to be asked just seems like an unnecessary complication of what is.

For example I wanted to ask about "others." There is no REAL experience of anyone else. Just this experience and a story creating the illusion of "them" and "me." As I look at my dog beside me right now, there is only the visual of her, and the sounds of her breathing. And that's it. There is no REAL experience of her "self/being/soul/independent existence" any more than there is any evidence of "my self." Yet it still "seems" she is separate, which leads me to think - separate from what?

So now looking again there is the visual experience of dog. I can notice that there is just visual experience, there is no information in the visual beyond what is seen. So the "idea" of separation is just a thought. And just like when initially noticing that there is "no self," there is a thought saying "but it feels so real." BUT underneath there is just the truth of experience. The simple acceptance that there is no grand experience of "no separation" just the simpleness of "only what's really here." I can ask "is there the experience of an "I" "noticing" "dog" (I love the subject experiencing object pointer) and there isn't, there is only one, wordless experience.

This noticing of reality in regards to my dogs separation is not super clear, but it get's clearer and clearer each time the simple reality is noticed.

This "appears" to be the process. Just noticing what part of experience is a thought/story/concept and what is real. Then noticing over and over again.

So there are some things like that. I guess my question is - am I on track? Should I ask you about each one or is this just the next part of the process unfolding as it does. I can see the biggest way to go wrong is to think about what it was like previously to notice reality instead of really noticing what is here now.

Thanks Vivien, I am extremely grateful for your dedication, it's .. beyond words :)

Thank you,

Philip

[Vivien]

Hi Philip,

It's hard to say how it feels. There is no real relationship between felt sensation and the shifting of focus to reality. The sensation is happening. It "seems" more peaceful but the "non-peace" was just imagined anyway.

Honestly, I’m not totally convinced that the penny has really dropped that there is no separate self in any shape or form.

You’ve learned how to shift focus from thinking to experiencing, but it’s not necessarily equivalent to clearly seeing that what you believed yourself to be in your whole life is just the figment of imagination.

Imagine discovering that something so fundamental as learning that you were actually born on Mars. Wouldn’t you have a response of surprise, delight, or horror, or even a "wow, that's weird"? Can you imagine not having any emotional response by discovering it?

So I suggest to dig a bit deeper.

For a moment, I would like to ask you to forget about the present moment experience, and bring up the memory of what was you believed yourself to be before we started this investigation.

What did you believe about yourself?
What did you believe yourself to be?
What did you believe Philip to be?
Did you believe that you were the body? Or that you had a body? Or that you resided inside the body? Or you were attached to the body in some way?

Please contemplate on these, go deep and dig up those assumptions and beliefs.

Thanks Vivien, I am extremely grateful for your dedication, it's .. beyond words :)

You are welcome :)

Vivien

[PhilipJerzy]

Hi Vivien,

Honestly, I’m not totally convinced that the penny has really dropped that there is no separate self in any shape or form.

Hmm, I would agree. Perhaps I've been dismissing all the belief as an illusion but not investigating the actual belief. There still "seems" like there is a separate self throughout the day, but I've just been noticing it as a "seeming" and not as reality. The belief still appears to be very real even though it isn't actually felt. I'm glad you caught this, I thought that was just how it is.

You’ve learned how to shift focus from thinking to experiencing, but it’s not necessarily equivalent to clearly seeing that what you believed yourself to be in your whole life is just the figment of imagination.

Imagine discovering that something so fundamental as learning that you were actually born on Mars. Wouldn’t you have a response of surprise, delight, or horror, or even a "wow, that's weird"? Can you imagine not having any emotional response by discovering it?

Yes definitely no such large realization. More like individual thoughts/beliefs/stories about the self are realized in this way throughout the day, but the whole system of "selfness" is still in place. Like the story I was telling yesterday about wondering what to do later - eventually the story is seen as completely a figment of imagination, but I have had no such realization about the self as a whole.

Im ready to dig deeper :)

I sense there is a need for even greater honesty. I notice there is a desire to really get this and to overlook parts of the experience that 'aren't' "getting this." I see that isn't helpful at all. I will do my best to open to those things instead of dismissing them as just not part of reality and then not investigating them.

before we started this investigation.

I will say that even without going too far back, even now when focus turns to the present there still "seems" to be self somewhere in the picture. It is investigated and seen through to some degree but it still persists.

What did you believe about yourself?

I believed there was a mind, I believed the image of this body was me, I believed the thoughts about things were me. I believed I have a job and a car and a dog and a family.

What did you believe yourself to be?

Even now when I look I see there is lots of believe around the me being this visual image of body. The thinking about the past and future are happening and the imagined visual "I" that is doing all these things "seems" real most of the time, even when reality is noticed and the thoughts are seen as irrelevant.

What did you believe Philip to be?

Thoughts say Philip is this body. The visual of this body. The thoughts of I are always accompanied with the visual imagining of the visual body moving and doing things and those "seem" the most true also. The sensation also feel like they are "mine" as if they are happening in the visual body. It is obvious there is no actual experience of ownership/mine but it doesn't feel like its clicked in and realized the way you described.

Did you believe that you were the body? Or that you had a body? Or that you resided inside the body? Or you were attached to the body in some way?

Yes definitely that I was the body and that I had the body. Funny the illusions that there are multiple things. The body and "me" seem inseparable and I notice it really has to do with the visual image. The belief in the sensations being me is less strong, at least right now.

Thanks Vivien, appreciate your ability to be honest and point out what I might be overlooking.

Lovingly,

Philip

[Vivien]

Hi Philip,

Yes definitely no such large realization.

I don’t want to imply that the realization should be large, with earth shattering emotions. For most people it’s not coming with fireworks :) so please don’t expect that.

I will say that even without going too far back, even now when focus turns to the present there still "seems" to be self somewhere in the picture. It is investigated and seen through to some degree but it still persists.

OK. I also don’t want to imply that the illusion of the self will be gone when it’s seen through. Not at all. It’s just can be seen for what it is, a fictional character and not something that exists in reality.

Even now when I look I see there is lots of believe around the me being this visual image of body.

I would like to ask you to spend a whole day on noticing and investigating this image of the body.

Please describe this image to me as precisely as you can.
What is that you see in that image exactly?
Are there colors, or is it black and white?
Do you see this image as clearly as it were a photo, or is it rather blurred or is it like a caricature?
Do you see the whole body from head to toe, or just some body parts?
Are the body in that image is translucent, so you can see organs, sensations, emotions, or thoughts inside it?

The thinking about the past and future are happening and the imagined visual "I" that is doing all these things "seems" real most of the time,

So are you saying that within this mental image, it can be literally seen that this image of the body is thinking?
How does the thinking part is depicted?
Are there little white thought or speech bubbles above to the head, where the thoughts are written in?

Thoughts say Philip is this body.

Are thoughts saying that Philip is the body, or you are thinking that Philip is the body?

The thoughts of I are always accompanied with the visual imagining of the visual body moving and doing things and those "seem" the most true also.

Please help me to get a better understanding what is happening here.

Let’s say you are writing a reply to me, but at the same time there is a mental image of the body typing being project OVER the actual visual image of the laptop and the hands typing? So this mental image is overlaying the actual visual sight?

The sensation also feel like they are "mine" as if they are happening in the visual body.

So how is it felt exactly that the sensations are happening to the mental image of a body?
Can actually be felt that a sensation is happening to a visual thought?
Is this really a FEELING?
Or the sensations are also part of this mental image, like little vibrating dots inside the body?

Yes definitely that I was the body and that I had the body. Funny the illusions that there are multiple things. The body and "me" seem inseparable and I notice it really has to do with the visual image.

Are you talking about the actual visuals of the body, the actual pinkish colors when you look at your hands, or are you talking about the mental image of the body?

Vivien

[PhilipJerzy]

Hi Vivien,

OK. I also don’t want to imply that the illusion of the self will be gone when it’s seen through. Not at all. It’s just can be seen for what it is, a fictional character and not something that exists in reality.

Ok understood.

So are you saying that within this mental image, it can be literally seen that this image of the body is thinking?
How does the thinking part is depicted?
Are there little white thought or speech bubbles above to the head, where the thoughts are written in?

What I meant to imply is that alongside thoughts describing stories there is the visual thought images of the story. So the thought will be "Later I want to get some food" and the verbal/visual words/auditory word thoughts are accompanied with a visual thought picture of me/my body/this body eating the food.

And I can check and notice that in the present moment that isn't happening and there is no me doing those actions, but you are right that the "me" doesn't seem totally fictional.

it can be literally seen that this image of the body is thinking?

And just to clarify no, the image of the body never appears to think. It is silent.

Are thoughts saying that Philip is the body, or you are thinking that Philip is the body?

Interesting question. When I was writing this, the thought arose, and it was "me thinking that Philip is the body" and then focus shifted and sensations and visual reality was noticed and those thoughts were seen as just empty words. But I would say most of the time the experience is that "I am thinking that Philip is the body"

Let’s say you are writing a reply to me, but at the same time there is a mental image of the body typing being project OVER the actual visual image of the laptop and the hands typing? So this mental image is overlaying the actual visual sight?

With this I was referring to the same things as the question above. That the "word" thought is accompanied with a visual scene imagining of the body doing things. So I will be just driving my car for real and thinking about a conversation I could have with someone and the words would be imagined alongside the images of the scene of this body (me) talking to a friend. I've noticed that when the thoughts have just the words it seems more clear than when there is images as well.

What you wrote here doesn't really happen except when my eyes are closed. When I close my eyes there is a strong mental image of the body.

Are you talking about the actual visuals of the body, the actual pinkish colors when you look at your hands, or are you talking about the mental image of the body?

Actual pinkish colours. The real visual stimuli when looking at the thing we call our body.

So how is it felt exactly that the sensations are happening to the mental image of a body?
Can actually be felt that a sensation is happening to a visual thought?
Is this really a FEELING?
Or the sensations are also part of this mental image, like little vibrating dots inside the body?

So what I meant wasn't that sensations are happening to the mental image but to the visual image. Like when I look at the pinkish colours we call a hand, the thoughts say my hand and it is believed most of the time, and then the sensations that "appear" to be happening to the hand are called my sensations since they are happening to "my hand."

With my eyes closed and feeling sensations they do not really seem like mine but when seeing the body they do seem like mine. This is what I meant that sensations appear to be happening to the visual image.

Please describe this image to me as precisely as you can.

It is different in different situations. It is usually from my perspective, meaning from the usual perspective of the eyes. Although occasionally it is in third person. I could have a thought of grabbing a glass of water by my bedside as I type this and its like the visual thought clouds what is actually seen and for a moment it appears that I am grabbing a glass of water until focus shifts away from the thought. These are usually brief flashes where focus is on thought. I can see that it is imagination and totally not real but for the moment it is completely believed, especially with the verbal thoughts happening alongside.

What is that you see in that image exactly?

An imagination of my body doing the things that thoughts are describing.

Are there colors, or is it black and white?

Colours

Do you see this image as clearly as it were a photo, or is it rather blurred or is it like a caricature?

Semi-clearly. The more I sit with this the more it goes from Semi-clearly to "seems like" semi clearly. At that point it's a memory and I can't be sure it even happened. Weird.

Do you see the whole body from head to toe, or just some body parts?

Usually hands and head. Hands interacting with things, head as the identity of the image. Maybe chest a bit as well.

Are the body in that image is translucent, so you can see organs, sensations, emotions, or thoughts inside it?

No it is imagined to look like real life.

Not sure why but these questions seemed very difficult. Maybe it's not something that has really been looked at before.

Thanks Vivien,

Philip

[Vivien]

Hi Philip,

Not sure why but these questions seemed very difficult. Maybe it's not something that has really been looked at before.

There was a hidden intention behind my questions. Those questions were not just about describing me what is happening, but making you look at closely those visual thoughts of the body, and be aware of them.

So, I would like to ask you to stay with looking at these mental images. Your job is to notice them as often as you can in your daily life. Notice as much as possible. Aim for noticing all, but don’t beat up yourself if you fail :)

And when you notice a mental image of the body, stop for a moment and investigate:

Are you the body in that mental image, or you are you the one who is aware of that image?

You can ask:
Is this image the I, or is this just an image that I am aware of?

Vivien

[PhilipJerzy]

Hi Vivien,

I asked these questions about every image and seeming self that arose, at least the ones that were noticed.

There was a lot of identification with the physical body, just the idea floating loosely as I went through my day that I am the body. As I walked my dog and noticed the body holding the leash, it was Me walking the dog. Whenever I noticed this I asked "is this the I or is this just something I am aware of" and that question just kind of severs the reality of the self right away.

Same thing when thoughts about the past or future arose with or without a mental image.

Is this image the I, or is this just an image that I am aware of?

Each time it was clear that what the question was being asked about wasn't ME but that there was an awareness of that thing.

It didn't seem like a lot of progress was really made though, well I noticed how much belief there is still in a separate self. Every single thought appears as the separate self. Even when there are no noticeable thoughts there still "appears" to be a separate self. Sure I can see through it and notice what is really here but it is still totally believed. Feels like I could use this pointer for another week...

It really feels like I am overcomplicating it though, at least today. If I look right now, there is dog, yellow blanket, laptop with words, hands on keyboard, the sound of my air purifier and keyboard and the occasionally car driving by. Where is the self in this? There doesn't seem to be one except in the thoughts. The thoughts are asking these questions and it seems like I am the one asking.

Feels like I'm going in circles again hahaha. I guess maybe I am and just being more thorough this time around..

Thanks for this wonderful pointer, another one I will keep using.

Philip