6 years sober spent seeking the truth

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

This is something that is becoming focused. An intense awareness of nowness. All experience HERE NOW and gone...moving. Experience and time can't coexist. Only now is there experiencing.

Beautiful description:)

Honestly, there is still the seeming 'awareness of...' so focus will be going here in the coming days.

That all right, if there is a seeming ‘awareness of…’. The question is if there is something separate from what is being ‘awared’ or known?

If there is an aware-er in the background, separate from the known, which is waiting for object to appear IN itself?

As we talked about this before, this is just the beginning not the end. The illusion itself won’t be wiped out just because it’s seen to be an illusion. But, it can be recognised and clearly see at any moment that things are not how they SEEM to be.

Vivien

[DoctahL]

That all right, if there is a seeming ‘awareness of…’. The question is if there is something separate from what is being ‘awared’ or known?

All that can be found is awareness of. This includes awareness of thought, sensations (the body), and perceptions. There's nothing left to be called "me" that is outside of this awareness of.

Which begs the question then, "but what is it that is aware?" But if it was a thing that was aware, then it would be experienced objectively and obviously as well. It would be something else to point at and then go, "oh that's the real me" but there's nothing found other than what is being experienced right here and now that is outside of what is "awared" as you said.

If there is an aware-er in the background, separate from the known, which is waiting for object to appear IN itself?

No "background" hiding behind the scenes. Nothing but the knowing of a constantly changing experience. Including thoughts, the sensations of the body and perceptions. Basically, what might have been considered a separate "me" is also being experienced by the same awareness of. Not doing or receiving the experiencing.

There's no experienced break in this constantly moving experience so nothing seems to be waiting for an object to experience.

Can't conceptualize just knowing without some sort of objective experience happening.

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Which begs the question then, "but what is it that is aware?" But if it was a thing that was aware, then it would be experienced objectively and obviously as well. It would be something else to point at and then go, "oh that's the real me" but there's nothing found other than what is being experienced right here and now that is outside of what is "awared" as you said.

Yes. Very nice observations.

Nothing but the knowing of a constantly changing experience. Including thoughts, the sensations of the body and perceptions. Basically, what might have been considered a separate "me" is also being experienced by the same awareness of. Not doing or receiving the experiencing.

Yes, all is included. Even the body and the story of me.

Is life happening TO the body, or AS the body?
Is life happening TO me, or AS a story of me?

Is the body separate from life / experience, having a life / experience? Or the body IS life / experience?

And yes, it seems that there is something that is aware, but look, is there awareness …. gap… body or thought or world?
Is there a gap between ‘awareness of’ and the ‘awared’? Or these are just two different ways of looking at the same happening?

Like a coin. A coin has two sides, head and tail.
But isn’t the head referring the same coin, just as the tail?
Aren’t head and tail are just different perspectives of looking at the same coin (the same phenomenon)?

Vivien

[DoctahL]

Is the body separate from life / experience, having a life / experience? Or the body IS life / experience?

Are you using these words interchangeably? That helps. Gonna assume that's what you mean by life/experience and answer these with just using experience if that's ok.

Is experience happening TO the body, or AS the body?

The body is included in the experiencing. So sure. Experience/life happening AS the body. Just as it's happening as everything else.

Is experience happening TO me, or AS a story of me?

Sure there is an awareness of "my story". But in the present moment, there is only awareness of whatever is happening including thoughts about "me". Experience happening as a story of me. Whether there is a belief in that story or not, there's still awareness or experiencing of it.

Right now there's a fuzzy sound present. It's also noticed that there is a pulsating sensation. Without any story attached, that is all they are. The sensation is not a "heartbeat that has been beating for 35 years." That's a story that comes in thoughts. It's just a present sensation. That's it. The fuzzy sound isn't the air vent blowing, it's just a sound. Happening now. It's always only right now and it's always only a changing experience happening. Words about this experience are stories. Concepts. They create separation where there is none. Including "me the experiencer". There is only present moment experience happening. It includes everything.

Is the body separate from experience, having an experience? Or the body IS experience?

It's not separate. It's being experienced. It's included in the experience so the body is not responsible for experience.

And yes, it seems that there is something that is aware, but look, is there awareness …. gap… body or thought or world?
Is there a gap between ‘awareness of’ and the ‘awared’? Or these are just two different ways of looking at the same happening?

There's no gaps. No "time frames" (like movie frames compartmentalizing moments)

Yeah...what is the difference between "awareness of" or "awared"? Either way it's explains the same experience.

But isn’t the head referring the same coin, just as the tail?
Aren’t head and tail are just different perspectives of looking at the same coin (the same phenomenon)?

Right.

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Thank you for our replies. Nice investigation.

Are you using these words interchangeably?

Yes. The words experience, life, existence, isness, beingness, this, what is – these all point to the same happening to this present moment experience.

The body is included in the experiencing. So sure. Experience/life happening AS the body. Just as it's happening as everything else.

So is there any separation of me and not-me in reality?
Is there anything other than this present-moment experience as it is, as one whole existence?
Is there anything that is apart from it, separate from it, our outside of it?
Is there anything that is not included into the whole?

Is there anything that is not super clear about the topic of separation? And doubt?

Vivien

[DoctahL]

So is there any separation of me and not-me in reality?

No me can be found that is responsible for experiencing. Everything is being experienced. Or everything is just experience.

Been asking, what is/was the belief exactly before this looking anyway? What was the model? Basically that thinking controls everything and that there was this invisible person in the body somewhere responsible for thinking thoughts and doing stuff. That this invisible entity was this sum total of the judgmental conclusions of past experiences. Well it's nowhere to be found.

No little man found running around in the body doing stuff and thinking.

Then there was this idea of separation with the body. Mostly having to do with the image seen. Labeling happens and creates this belief that there are separate things. Including "me" or "my body".
It would be like looking at a painting of a room with two hands in the foreground. Then when somebody comes along to look at it, the artist points at the hands and goes, "oh, those are my hands there so they aren't actually part of the painting". You'd get a lot of sideways looks.

Any label just creates or perpetuates this belief of a boundary. Including "me" or "not me".

Is there anything other than this present-moment experience as it is, as one whole existence?

Present moment is the only experience. It really rattles the sense of time. Like thoughts can't get a grip on now forever. The second there are thoughts about that, it separates into now as opposed to before or after or something. Present moment is the only moment and this is where experience is constantly. One whole thing only divided by thoughts about it.

Is there anything that is apart from it, separate from it, our outside of it?
Is there anything that is not included into the whole?

Everything is included and if there was something that wasn't, that couldn't be known.

Is there anything that is not super clear about the topic of separation? And doubt?

I think this is seen.

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

V: Is there anything that is not super clear about the topic of separation? And doubt?

C: I think this is seen.

Do you THINK that it’s seen, or you can SEE that all separation is just conceptual, since there is nothing separate from, apart from what is here now?

I want to make sure that you have no doubts. You have been blue before, so I don’t want to leave any doubts hanging in the air.

Please spend another day of looking and notice if there is any doubt, or anything that is not super clear, and you would like to look at more.

Vivien

[DoctahL]

I'm not sure how to respond to yet. I think I need a few day with these questions.

Any time any of these elements are looked at, it's seen that that particular element of experience is only divided into categories or things only by thoughts. Including the experiences that are labeled as "me" or "my" etc. In these moments, it's obvious and seen. Whether it's thoughts, the visual, auditory, sensations, time now.

Right now the sensations that constitute what was conceptualized as "body" are present. Sensations of typing happening. Thoughts bouncing along. The only actual experience happening now...and gone.

So the only things present are known. Meaning nothing "hiding" somewhere from experience or separate from it. And really it's only one thing being experienced only being separated by arbitrary concepts.

There is just this habitual thinking. This assumption that there IS something present that is experiencing. It's noticed that it's there and then it's looked for and of course, nothing is found. This keeps happening. And there's no choice but to keep looking when it's noticed it isn't clear.

That's where it's at right now. Spending a great deal of everyday with this inquiry as the main focus. Maybe there's an expectation this thinking should break or go away and knowing will take it's place or something. Maybe it just takes time.

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

There is an important thing to emphasize. Seeing that there is no separate self does not mean that the illusion of the separation will completely stop. Not at all. The illusion of seeming separation will go on (at least for some time). We are not aiming to stop the illusion. Rather just to see it for what it is. Just an imagination, and not something that is actually there.

As we talked about before, seeing through the self is just the first step, just the beginning and not the end. If you expect that the seeming separation should stop appearing altogether, then you are on the wrong track.

It’s important to re-examine your expectations. Since if you have an expectation, any at all, then you are going to seek validation for what you expect, instead of seeing what is here right now, in front of your eyes.

Maybe there's an expectation this thinking should break or go away and knowing will take it's place or something. Maybe it just takes time.

Please really look at what you expect.

What should break exactly? What do you expect to change?

And what should go away? The appearance of the self or the seeming separation?

This assumption that there IS something present that is experiencing. It's noticed that it's there and then it's looked for and of course, nothing is found. This keeps happening. And there's no choice but to keep looking when it's noticed it isn't clear.

Do you expect that this seeming experiencer should stop appearing? Or is it enough to see it for what it is, a non-existent, fictional character only?

And more importantly who or what has a problem with presence of the illusion?
Who wants it gone? Chris?
Or the fictional me-character wants that the illusion stop?

Vivien

[DoctahL]

Vivien.

Today I was out under a tree working. Beautiful day. It occurred to me that all the elements of that current experience (now just a memory) were just there. The sky, the sun, the tree, the colors, the sensations and breeze. It was just sudden awareness of the present moment. Then this thought came that said something like, "you can't prove anything has actually ever happened. You can only be sure that there is something happening." Something to that effect. Any present moment experience just appears as a whole. The character story of Chris is only present because a believed past. But there is no past. There are just memories (thoughts) happening now with everything else. The past and character are just...I almost wanna say downloaded. It's just there as a story and never looked into. The character and the perspective and all the subsequent defining characteristics are based on thoughts about a past that is only present as thoughts. It can't even fairly be called "conditioning" because that means all this stuff happened over a long time and was learned and culminated into a model of reality. That's the story.

It's like a dream character. Running around as a dream character in a dream. Everything present and seemingly so familiar, with all this story line behind it and the activities and sights and whole experience, it's all just suddenly there and believed as if it's been going on the whole time. The present experience is just noticed to be automatically endowed with this whole backstory.

If there is only NOW, then there is no past. If there is no past there is no actual story. If there is no story, then there is no character present that has been seemingly derived from or molded by it. If there is no actual character, then who is experiencing all this? It's an experience of a dreamed Chris who is included in and as the experience itself. The whole thing can't really be distinguished from a dream. Is this a dream?!

Cause and effect become story stuff. Logic. Science. History. Just stories.

Who are you? The actual experience right now is that this...information or guidance is making itself known and calling itself Vivien from Australia...but that is a story or belief.

The whole thing is happening AS and from the perspective.

What should break exactly? What do you expect to change?

I don't know what was really expected...but today the story was seen to be a belief in the present (the only present there is) based on thoughts about a past that are experienced suspiciously vaguely in the present...

And what should go away? The appearance of the self or the seeming separation?

I don't know anything about "should". What is already here is here. That's it. The whole thing eventually goes away. There is no self separate from experience. Only experiencing happening,

quote=Vivien]
Do you expect that this seeming experiencer should stop appearing? Or is it enough to see it for what it is, a non-existent, fictional character only?
[/quote]

This is what was seen today.

And more importantly who or what has a problem with presence of the illusion?
Who wants it gone? Chris?
Or the fictional me-character wants that the illusion stop?

Lol right! Chris the seeker who has been through so much. A fictional character can't actually be aware of anything including illusion. A fictional character who has a problem with not being real lol. WTF. That's some far-out writing.

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

You did an excellent investigation :)

Yes, all there is this present moment as it is. Everything else is just a story, which also what is here now. :)

The whole thing can't really be distinguished from a dream. Is this a dream?!

Saying that this is a dream, that would be just a speculation. The thing is that we cannot really know what this is. We cannot get outside of this, and look within and determine if it’s a dream or something else.

We can only say that whatever is IS, here now.

Lol right! Chris the seeker who has been through so much. A fictional character can't actually be aware of anything including illusion. A fictional character who has a problem with not being real lol. WTF. That's some far-out writing.

It’s quite funny looking back, right? :)

Who are you? The actual experience right now is that this...information or guidance is making itself known and calling itself Vivien from Australia...but that is a story or belief.

Yes :) And yet the characters won’t disappear. Chris and Vivien will still continue to live their seeming lives. The story goes on, but with the recognition that it’s a story only.

Is there any doubt left? Or can you say with a big fat YES that it’s clear the I, as a separate self is an illusion?

Vivien

[DoctahL]

Is there any doubt left? Or can you say with a big fat YES that it’s clear the I, as a separate self is an illusion?

YES

[Vivien]

Great :)

Are you ready to the so called, final questions?

[DoctahL]

Fire away.

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

And since you had been a blue member before but got turned back to green, I would like to ask you, what is the difference between when you first answered these questions and now? What has changed?

Vivien