Desperately Seeking Freedom

[Susan]

Okay back from my mum's and the temp got to 84 degrees. Pathetic eh?

Sounds like your shower moments are like my dog walking moments. Nice time to reflect. For me its driving too. So on my way back from my mum's I thought about control again and looked at it kind of scientifically. So if I am running the show here, there must be a control centre. So where is it. Its not the body which has reflexes and is guided by the nervous system and other centres in the brain to function (as you can see, I'm no biologist!), emotions are felt responses and may get a response from the world but do not control that or anything else. My brain, I believe, is a set of conditioning which controls responses to the world by association and other more sophisticated means, I guess (again, I'm no neurologist). So, the brain is a response centre but not a control centre, making decisions on this life. The senses, taste, touch feel etc feedback info to the brain and clearly have no control function. Thoughts may have some power - not so sure - but even a thought of intent does not in itself lead to aguaranteed action and just seem to arise from nowhere, certainly not from any control centre. So I can't find the control centre of me, where this life is run from.

However, staying with this idea, I then feel like a robot/computer responding as programmed to life and the findings of this investigation do not seem to account for the creative expression of poetry and art, mystical experiences and synchronicity. Does this come back to 'knowing I am nothing is wisdom and knowing I am everything is Love' - This investigation misses the love???? Misses the I am (see earlier post)

Or am I wasting everyone's time here. Am I completely fooling myself that I'm getting anywhere here. I'm just getting more confused. And I still feel the same sense of self. And totally overreacted today to report I heard today about my brother which upset me in a very dramatic way and brought up alot of anger. I'm not expecting to be a saint as a result of seeing clearly but I am expecting to lose some neurosis.

Anyway I also looked at the content of 'my' thoughts which, in this case, seem heavily weighted in terms of thoughts that reference me in some way and put me on a pride trip or guilt trip, or place me under pressure and expectations, and doubts etc etc. But there is no me there just an assumption of a me. I wish they would just give it a break so I wouldn't take myself so seriously!

In terms of investigating whether I am present in content generally, no I am not. Content is all story isn't it? and I am, again, only an assumption made by the story of content, not in it. Can you give me any guidance as to how to go deeper with this enquiry if you think it would be helpful. Or please tell me to go back to my misery and leave you in peace if you are despairing :(

[zenkitties]

suggesting that someone faces their fear or doubt, so I tried this and it kind of unravelled like the rubber band ball into elements of thoughts, beliefs and labels.

yes, its very paradoxical sometimes that in order to get rid of something, sometimes you have to relax into it. Which is my i've been saying relax relax relax INTO. Resisting brings more resistence. For instance... instead of the thought of, "Why do I still feel this way?" Relax into it and say, "Oh I'm feeling this way right now, I see this now and I will stay with it until it passes."

Once you bring acceptance and surrender to the table instead of fear and judgement, the story looses its grip on you. Also I've recently pulled this up in meditation, that goal and expectation lead to suffering. Please see this and drop it if you can, if you can't that's okay too, suffering will just happen until you can drop them haha.

Didn't Nisagadarta's Guru tell him to stay with the I am, which he did and realised freedom?

Maharaj was with a different inquiry then what we are doing here. I would say cast all those readings aside for now until you see this. Maharaj was a brilliant man, but those readings will only get you away from your task with your own inquiry here.

[Susan]

Relaxationa and surrender, Yes. I think I can get quite uptight about all of this and then with insight seems to come relaxation or does relaxation come first? Anyway I will try and relax into the enquiry and leave alone the I am for now but perhaps we can come back when I've seen I don't exist? (Notice not if but when!)

I'm feeling generally rather strange in myself at mo really since starting this and doing an intense tai chi practice on Saturday. Wanting to be quiet and not interact too much with the world. Would like to just be with this all the time at the mo, but work, family and life are also requiring attention. I'll give it all the attention I can.

[zenkitties]

Sounds like your shower moments are like my dog walking moments. Nice time to reflect. For me its driving too.

They definitely were, very relaxing for me and that's often what it takes. Again we'll come back to relaxing the mind and letting go of everything to look clearly at whats going on.

So if I am running the show here, there must be a control centre.

okay good, so you see there is still no you to be found. If this is so from any angle you are looking at, then why believe that Santa exists? What do you feel is stopping you.

Do you think life will stop? Its been doing it all this time regardless, there has never been a you yet life has successfully been playing out its creativity, loving nature. It's never been there... so no it is not a robotic like state, if anything the story is a robotic like state.

the story is seen, a reaction causes a thought, which causes a reaction to a thought, which causes a thought, which causes a reaction. With emotions intermitently appearing and falling. All of which there was no control over these to begin with. :P You don't control them, those are robotic yes in respect to conditioning and how it works.

Heres the good news, when this is seen through comes the re-orchestration. this mechanism can began to be broken down and injected with just plain seeing what things are, and letting it play out. that comes later though.

Thoughts may have some power - not so sure - but even a thought of intent does not in itself lead to aguaranteed action and just seem to arise from nowhere

They have no power other then whats given to them.

However, staying with this idea, I then feel like a robot/computer responding as programmed to life and the findings of this investigation do not seem to account for the creative expression of poetry and art, mystical experiences and synchronicity.

There is no one to feel like a robot, there is no you, that is just another thought trying to perpetuate a self. Creative expression happens through that manifestation with or without you. It's that feeling of just running freely through an open field or, being taken in through a movie. Or that bound thats shared between a dog and its master when walks happen. They don't need a you there for these things to happen. In fact they have been happening without you there. It just hasn't been noticed until now that there is no you there.

Or am I wasting everyone's time here. Am I completely fooling myself that I'm getting anywhere here. I'm just getting more confused. And I still feel the same sense of self. And totally overreacted today to report I heard today about my brother which upset me in a very dramatic way and brought up alot of anger. I'm not expecting to be a saint as a result of seeing clearly but I am expecting to lose some neurosis.

I'm sure you feel like you may be going crazy and stessed. I understand this well.

Instead of focusing on the story however, what sensations are going on with this, confused state. What thoughts accompany this, and what tensions in the body accompandy this? Then see if you can find a you in there.

Make it a game! Those things are coming up for a reason, it wants you to see something, not because you are confused (because there isn't a you to be confused).

Relax with the confusion itself, melt into it. What does confusion feel like without the story? By just watching it at a bare sensational level, is it stressful or is it merely just a different type of energy?

overreacted today to report I heard today about my brother which upset me in a very dramatic way and brought up alot of anger.

who says you overreacted? anger manifested, and so it played out like anger plays out. I would say that's pretty successful haha.

I bet in most of those enlightenment stories you've read, they don't talk about this part of the journey. ;)

But there is no me there just an assumption of a me. I wish they would just give it a break so I wouldn't take myself so seriously!

Well alright, go ahead then. Give yourself permission to stop taking yourself seriously. You are the only one holding you back. ;) You have direct experience and evidence of there not being a you there. Susan will do her thing regardless of whether you are there or not.

Can you give me any guidance as to how to go deeper with this enquiry if you think it would be helpful. Or please tell me to go back to my misery and leave you in peace if you are despairing :(

Sure I would be happy to give you guidance. It won't be anything other then what I've told you up to this point but I'll bullet point it to bring it home.

-Do you exist anywhere in experience?
-Relax into the feeling, sensations
-Be mindful of the story and how it unfolds.
-Accept the feelings that arise, and then subsequently pass.
-Surrender to said story, and let it pass.

Let me know what comes up after this!

[zenkitties]

Relaxationa and surrender, Yes. I think I can get quite uptight about all of this and then with insight seems to come relaxation or does relaxation come first? Anyway I will try and relax into the enquiry and leave alone the I am for now but perhaps we can come back when I've seen I don't exist? (Notice not if but when!)

Relaxation is always there, its a by product of the natural state. Relaxing may happen yes. :)

I'm feeling generally rather strange in myself at mo really since starting this and doing an intense tai chi practice on Saturday. Wanting to be quiet and not interact too much with the world. Would like to just be with this all the time at the mo, but work, family and life are also requiring attention. I'll give it all the attention I can.

Yes it feels strange, because life is beginning to grab its reins back. Just let the flow happen. Accept and Surrender. ;)

Attention will happen, yes because compassion is there and loving is there, probably more than Susan was ever capable of. Its not that the personality doesn't do a good job. But the embodiment or natural state is way more capable without the filters. ;)

[Susan]

-Do you exist anywhere in experience?
-Relax into the feeling, sensations
-Be mindful of the story and how it unfolds.
-Accept the feelings that arise, and then subsequently pass.
-Surrender to said story, and let it pass.

Great Summary. Thanks. Trying to stick with it but notice that during an experience, I am usually locked into what is happening without this perspective. Then afterwards I take the experience apart by looking at what made up the experience. For example, i received an email yesterday that triggered a strong sense of identification, wanting to be acknowledged as right, being treated unfairly, unkindly etc. I got very caught up in it; stopped me sleeping for a while last night. Then I broke it down (a while later). Words on a screen, image of sender, story of our relationship to date, feelings of hurt and then anger arising in the body, lots of thoughts about being treated unfairly, thoughts about my reply, fear of losing this relationship if too much anger is expressed. Ideas about what I may lose if I upset the sender. No me anywhere, just this story of words, images, thoughts and feelings unfolding. When I looked into this my response became more of a wondering where this story will go from here and I was able to relax into the story and feelings which, of course, lost their intensity anyway. I found myself responding to the email this morning with more softness than would otherwise have been the case.

Is this what you're suggesting I do? If so, how to do it more immediately? At the mo it's definitely more of a debrief after an event than an immediate seeing, So doesn't feel so coherent but still has an effect of relaxing the focus on the story.

Can you say anymore about the investigation of 'do you exist anywhere in the experience?' I definitely get a bit muddled between different mes!! The me the character of Susan and mind/body organism and the me, the sense of aliveness that's always there.

[zenkitties]

Then I broke it down (a while later). Words on a screen, image of sender, story of our relationship to date, feelings of hurt and then anger arising in the body, lots of thoughts about being treated unfairly, thoughts about my reply, fear of losing this relationship if too much anger is expressed. Ideas about what I may lose if I upset the sender. No me anywhere, just this story of words, images, thoughts and feelings unfolding.

See how this played out. It seems like it was bigger in volume didn't it, until it was broken down into its smaller parts. that's all the story is, is just a mesh of a lot of different sensations put together i a way that makes it seem BIGGER then what it actually is. When seen for what it is, its weight is almost non existant. All I can say about this debrief as you call it is that first of all, it works for obvious reasons. It also gets quicker the more you practice it (btw you are seeing there is no I in there, so that too is very helpful with catching the body up with the fact there is no you running anything.) Its like driving a car or riding a bike. It gets more skillful or better over time to where it becomes better over time.

It is like you are building an automatic airbag system. At some time it will deploy on its own and the affects of story diminish.

Is this what you're suggesting I do? If so, how to do it more immediately? At the mo it's definitely more of a debrief after an event than an immediate seeing, So doesn't feel so coherent but still has an effect of relaxing the focus on the story.

How did it make you feel after you did this? Suffering went down considerably? Its different with different people, some it may be immediate, some it will be more of a "build up to." Keep using it in everyday life. Even now, are you noticing that you are being mindful of when and how you're getting caught up in the story. You see it happening, even though maybe not able to do anything about the reaction while its happening just yet (It still happens with me from time to time too). It does get more efficient and easier.

Can you say anymore about the investigation of 'do you exist anywhere in the experience?' I definitely get a bit muddled between different mes!!

Sure, so give up the different yous, because there is not even one of you. if there isn't one, there isn't many. Those are all different stories. Stories playing out as they play out. Relaxing into them is one big key i've given you (and you've experienced this).

Keep seeing how there is no you in experience, its really just that simple. The body will click, but sometimes it has to play "catch" up. Its a change in perception, not even for Maharaj was it instantaneous in the way we are lead to believe.

Sense of aliveness... Well I could add some more to it but I don't know how it would help at this moment. You are also experiencing it without realizing it. In that process above, do you see that it isn't one big thing but a bunch of small things giving the appearance of a big thing.

That is false continuity, impermanence of said things. They rise and fall and move on. These small things are not actually fluid in nature, they don't connect to each other, but the brain because its so good at what it does, "makes a connection as to why they are happening so rapidly and close together."

That's how a self even exists at all. Each sensation has nothing to do with the next, however everything is doing this. In out, In out, in out of existence, this is how everything is connected, not separate. EVERYTHING does this because its all part of the same thing.

Anyway I hope that doesn't muddle your investigation, but we'll get back to it here.

IS there a you anywhere in existence? Tell me what you see.

Was there ever a you in existence?

[Susan]

These small things are not actually fluid in nature, they don't connect to each other, but the brain because its so good at what it does, "makes a connection as to why they are happening so rapidly and close together."

That's how a self even exists at all. Each sensation has nothing to do with the next, however everything is doing this. In out, In out, in out of existence, this is how everything is connected, not separate. EVERYTHING does this because its all part of the same thing.

That is mind blowing. I've heard it before but life is such a convincing show/story. But know you're pointing to not only there not being me that is running the show but the fact that there is not really a show at all as I experience it, with continuity and fluidity. I have a funny sense of knowing this but I think I'm deluding myself.

IS there a you anywhere in existence? Tell me what you see.

Was there ever a you in existence?

Okay I am looking right know at whether there is a me in existence. There are hands that I used to think were mine, and arms and legs. But they are just body parts doing what they do. There's tension in the head that has always told me you're here but it is only tension in an image of the head. I have an image of me sitting here on the settee, typing, but it's just an image I am picturing. There are sounds of cars outside and my husband moving upstairs (but the the cars and husbands are just thoughts/stories). This tension in my head is screaming that I'm there but I can't be tension in the head because where am I when that disappears? It is quite compelling though as a sense of an I. Where am I then? Thoughts arise and I identify with them but they pass and on investigation it's just a thought. But there's still a sense that I am here. Where? If thoughts stop and relaxtion happens I think I'm looking out of these eyes. I can see my glasses frames. If I weren't in this body, looking out of these eyes I would have a very different view wouldn't I? There that proves I'm in my head - I'm looking out of these particular eyes in this head. Help I'm stuck there.

Off for a dog walk and reflection time.

[zenkitties]

Hi Susan,

Late night dog walk?!

That is mind blowing. I've heard it before but life is such a convincing show/story. But know you're pointing to not only there not being me that is running the show but the fact that there is not really a show at all as I experience it, with continuity and fluidity. I have a funny sense of knowing this but I think I'm deluding myself.

So un-delude yourself. Investigate it further for a clear answer. It cannot be known by the mind. the intelectual understanding of such things can happen. But I think you and I can understand the difference between reading about how to ride a bike and actually riding a bike. :)

Where am I then? Thoughts arise and I identify with them but they pass and on investigation it's just a thought. But there's still a sense that I am here.

Haha. Indeed, where are you? you know the answer to this. You've been looking at the evidence for some time now. Where are you?

Who is the one that is identifying with them. You keep saying "I" identify with this or that, WHAT is identifying with it?

I hope you enjoyed your dog walk! :) What kind of dog do you have by the way?

[Susan]

Hi, I walked my dog around 4pm. Only 8 hours difference I think, not 10 as I previously thought. And little Molly is a Parson Jack Russell and full of life, although clearly acting out of instincts and associations and her basic nature. No conflict with what is for her.

You've been looking at the evidence for some time now. Where are you?

Who is the one that is identifying with them. You keep saying "I" identify with this or that, WHAT is identifying with it?

It doesn't feel like very long that I've been looking at the evidence, given how long I've been identified as a self!! But from your point of view this is a simple enquiry. Why am I making it so hard to see I don't exist? So where am I and what am I? Firstly I am going to tell you honestly that I really feel I'm here. It's such a strong sense of being here when I'm awake. What gives me that sense - sensations, hearing, smelling, tingling in the body. Ok the sensations change but there always seems to be something going on that makes me feel here, usually in the head. So I am like a kaleidoscope of moving patterns on a screen with some colours and formations appearing more than others. My sense of self would disappear when the patterns disappear, I guess. So I only exist in relation to phenomenon. I have no absolute existence. I arise with a sensation or thought etc. What happens when I'm asleep - not sure.I disappear. What am I - I can't pinpoint what I am. I guess I have experiences of disappearing when awake too. Not sure I can put my finger on that.

Will continue to investigate - tiring work. And I just won't disappear!!!

[Susan]

Quick post following my last one. Bear with me its a story and no nearer to seeing I don't exist. I think you will tell me to stop getting distracted and get back to the enquiry!

I've just noticed that each day a little event seems to arise that causes discomfort and brings attention to how real the resulting suffering is. When I investigate the event, break it down into component parts. When I do this, strangely, kindness and compassion for the other party comes in. These events come and go on almost a daily basis as if life is offering me the chance to look into suffering. Nice story eh?

[zenkitties]

Hi, I walked my dog around 4pm. Only 8 hours difference I think, not 10 as I previously thought. And little Molly is a Parson Jack Russell and full of life, although clearly acting out of instincts and associations and her basic nature. No conflict with what is for her.

What a cute puppy! And definitely no conflict on her side. She doesn't need to perpetuate a self for sure!

Why am I making it so hard to see I don't exist?

like you said, those ideas around the self have been around for so long, it takes a bit of effort to dislodge those beliefs, concepts, and ideas out. Kind of like the belief in Santa. I'm sure even as a kid, you or I would refuse to believe it the first time we heard it but over time it sets in as the evidence becomes overwhelming. Crying may ensue and heartache may ensue but the passing of this beliefs moves on.

Firstly I am going to tell you honestly that I really feel I'm here. It's such a strong sense of being here when I'm awake. What gives me that sense - sensations, hearing, smelling, tingling in the body. Ok the sensations change but there always seems to be something going on that makes me feel here, usually in the head.

Of course you do, it takes time of continuous looking and seeing how you don't exist there. That concepts, beliefs, ideas, and then coupled with sensate reality (touch, smell, hearing, taste, seeing) create this illusion. This all gives a false sense of continuity. The thought claims it as being "my touch", "my seeing" blah blah blah, story story story. But pay attention to any of those five sense doors and let the thought pass and see if you can find you in that sense. Like ringing a bell, can you find the bell in the sound?

So I only exist in relation to phenomenon. I have no absolute existence. I arise with a sensation or thought etc. What happens when I'm asleep - not sure.I disappear. What am I - I can't pinpoint what I am. I guess I have experiences of disappearing when awake too. Not sure I can put my finger on that.

What exists in relation to phenomenon, or is it that phenomenon just take place without a seer?

I've just noticed that each day a little event seems to arise that causes discomfort and brings attention to how real the resulting suffering is. When I investigate the event, break it down into component parts. When I do this, strangely, kindness and compassion for the other party comes in. These events come and go on almost a daily basis as if life is offering me the chance to look into suffering. Nice story eh?

This might be a good time i point you here:
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/gue ... title=MCTB Suffering

Is this is a perfect opportunity to see whats in that link as it might shed some light on the little moments of suffering that life is trying to show to you. How its working out is a great opportunity! Enjoy your sleep and talk to you tomorrow Susan! :)

[zenkitties]

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/gue ... title=MCTB Suffering

[zenkitties]

Whoops I apologize for the triple post of the link. It doesn't seem to be linking properly so If i could have you click that link and near the top of the list there is a link that says Three Characteristics.

The one that says Suffering is the one that you're looking for. Hope that sheds some light on that.

[Susan]

Good morning Nick,

Again, thanks for hanging on in here. And thanks for the link. I will read it today..

I seem to be stuck on there needing to be a witness or seer of experience. Hence the me arising with experience. Isn't this the zen koan 'what's the sound of one hand clapping?' Or isn't there another one about a noise in a forest - is there a noise if there's noone to hear it? How can sound happen with no hearer/witness? Can you help me unstick this. I will investigate whether I'm there in the senses today.

I got in touch with some fear about loss of me this morning. I'm trying to see what's stopping true seeing, apart from the fact that this feels like hard work and I have a lazy nature! There is fear of the loss of the I that I (???!!!) am so attached to. There's two of me now! Double the work. Ha ha. Yes some sadness arising now.

Can you just put me out of my misery - chop off my head or something?

And I just won't disappear!!!

JUst one last thing - if I see I don't exist, will I disappear or just be seen through?

Okay I'll get back to you later today hopefully with my head chopped off.