Ldub & Forgetmenot

[Ldub]

Hi Kay!

I'm back in the world of Wifi (and a mirror!). Just FYI - I've been having trouble logging into LU the past couple of days - I've emailed the admin a couple of times as I've been getting an error message and can't get to the login screen. Today = success. :)

Great! Lovely to read, and nice to read that the searching has ceased…so how does that feel…not having the seeking/searching feeling? When I ask that question…was there a feeling of light heartedness, relief, joy?? And when clarity happened…how did that feel? Did it feel lighter in the body, in the head…was there peace? I am wanting you to take note…because with perception shifts there are feelings…and you must have had feelings of some description because you started laughing and something dropped away.

Thanks for clarifying! Yes, I felt relief, lighter in the body and also a solid feeling - like a door closing on a story.

So is there a me ‘here’ inside, and an outside world ‘there’. Can a ‘here’ and ‘there’ be found?

No, there's no 'here' or 'there' - those are thoughts, but can't be found in AE.

Just to clarify. Concepts are not a problem. There is a difference between a concept and a belief.

Awesome - thanks for this clarification - very helpful.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

No - there's no connection. The thoughts/mental image labels the sensation (tightness) and another thought with label (shoulder).

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

No - I see that as the sensation and color labeled 'hand' moves, thought 'hand moving' is the connection to the image 'of movement' in the mirror. Without that thought, the AE is color, sensation and the image 'of movement'.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

Only thought suggests it.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

The image by itself doesn't suggest that it's 'me' or 'my body'.
The image doesn't suggest that it's a 'body' at all - that's thought/concept 'body' - there are only colors and shapes.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(laughing) - no only thoughts and mental images suggest that there must be legs.

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

There are only sensations.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

There are only sensations. The AE of 'walking' is sensation and mental image and thoughts about 'walking'.

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

Only thoughts about a 'body' can be found. And 'walking' can't be found - it's sensation, and thoughts about walking.

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

The sensations are separate from the image labeled 'room'. I can have the sensations whether I'm in an image labeled 'room' or image labeled 'outdoors'. There's only the image labeled 'room' and the sensations that appear.

There's the experience of 'sadness' (sensation, thought labeled 'sad' or 'loss') as I went through this exercise. I know this is a normal part of the process as you've told me before. Just wanted to mention it.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Lisa,

Welcome back to the land of technology…I hope your travels are going well! Nice job at looking at the body! :)

There's the experience of 'sadness' (sensation, thought labeled 'sad' or 'loss') as I went through this exercise. I know this is a normal part of the process as you've told me before. Just wanted to mention it.

Thank you for sharing this with me. Many emotions will arise with this exploration, and will continue well after…as everything as you thought it to be…isn’t. This thread is about you being crystal crystal about what IS, and not how thoughts reports things to be, in order for you to clearly see what the ‘me’ is…however, in the undoing that continues after the realisation…it is important to embrace and allow and deeply feel all emotions. Bypassing them by saying that they are illusory…will only induce suffering. What you resists, persists.

The following is the final experiment at looking at the body, and also introduces us to out next exploration, which is the idea of time and memory.

Look into the mirror throughout the day. Body image appears... notice that all that's really there are some colours, and a thought-story saying 'these colours are my body'

When you return to the mirror each time, consider whether these 'body colours' have ever appeared before.

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Do that for today and report back what you find.

Love, Kay

[Ldub]

Hi Kay!

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

This is the only time this exact story and colors have appeared.

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Through AE, I can't find any previous appearances of the body - only thought/story of a 'previous' and 'body'. It can't be known that the body has appeared before - only thought/story.

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Yes - it is like this - only the story supports that this 'body' has been seen before!

Thanks Kay,
Lisa

[forgetmenot]

Hey Lisa!~

Okay, so moving onto looking at time.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
Can you find a point where it will end?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Love, Kay

[Ldub]

Hi Kay!

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

The way I'm experiencing this as I look is that 'now' is a thought and movement isn't AE, and a line of time is also a story/concept. 'Moment' is also a thought of segmenting AE into definitive experiences referring back to 'time'. Which assumes experience/what is has a beginning/end which also can't be found with AE.

AE of one event following another can't be found - without the thought/concept of 'time' and 'sequential'.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

I have no idea as there's no way to measure it, or to know when 'present moment' started/stopped (or that it did, or even what it means).

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
Can you find a point where it will end?

I can't find a point where it began - I only notice the thought arise ' this moment' but through AE, am not able to find a beginning/end point.

How long does the ‘now’ last?

I don't know.

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

There's no way of knowing where it starts/ends and 'past' is a story/concept relating back to the story/concept of time with no actual experience. Funny how circular this looking gets with 'time'! :)

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

AE of past is thought labeled 'past' with thoughts about 'time' and 'past'.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

No - there's no AE of 'time', or thoughts about 'time'!

Thanks Kay!
Lisa

[forgetmenot]

Hey Lisa,

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

There's no way of knowing where it starts/ends and 'past' is a story/concept relating back to the story/concept of time with no actual experience. Funny how circular this looking gets with 'time'! :)

It is funny, isn’t it!

‘Here’ doesn’t refer to a place, nor does ‘now’ refer to a time. HereNow points to the current and evident knowledge of experience, no matter what it is appearing as.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

No - there's no AE of 'time', or thoughts about 'time'!

Sorry...that question was posed wrong. It should have read is there AE of time or only thoughts about time. I am pretty sure you can find thoughts about time. :)

The 'now' is always present. It has no definable length and therefore has no beginning or end. You cannot move out of 'now', there is no way to not live in the now...that would be to live in the past or future, which is impossible. Those are just the content of thought… so do not exist. The idea of living in the past or future is laughable, that would be the 'now’.

Past and memory go hand-in-hand as almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened; that a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about the past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

Love, Kay

[Ldub]

Hi Kay!

Sorry...that question was posed wrong. It should have read is there AE of time or only thoughts about time.

Thanks and yes, that makes sense - there are definitely thoughts about 'time'.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

'Memory' occurs to me as colors, mental image, thought, thought labeled 'memory' and 'past', sometimes sensation.I don't know what it's 'made of' outside of the above.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

In AE, there's no difference. There's the thought labeling it 'past' and thoughts about 'past' that would appear to create a difference, but without the label, there's no distinction between the two.

WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

The memory appears now - when it appears. Without the concept of 'time', there's no way to reference the 'when' and 'time' is made up, so there's no way to know that 'memory' refers to something that's happened.

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

The 'future' thought occurs as a thought, mental image, and thought labeled 'future'. I don't know what it's 'made of' outside of that.

WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

The future thought appears now.
There's no difference between the general and future thought. "Future' thought would be labeled 'future' as part of the story of time.
There's no way to know exactly that a future thought refers to something that will happen - there's no way to predict the future, nor is there a 'future'to predict - only now.

Then let’s compare a thought about the past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

There's no difference between thoughts about past and future.
Without the story of 'past', 'future', 'time' there is no way to distinguish a difference.

Hope these aren't too 'thought-y' responses - it's what I found with looking!

Thanks Kay,
Lisa

[forgetmenot]

Hi Lisa,

Hope these aren't too 'thought-y' responses - it's what I found with looking!

Lovely looking :)

Okay, so is there anything that you aren't clear about? Anything that is confusing, or that you have questions about? Or is there something that you would like to cover that you feel hasn't been covered?

Love, Kay

[Ldub]

Hi Kay!

Okay, so is there anything that you aren't clear about? Anything that is confusing, or that you have questions about? Or is there something that you would like to cover that you feel hasn't been covered?

I think in the context of our LU exploration, I don't have questions. I can see how this is the first step and that there are layers to the concepts/stories and emotions that come next. I work with people in the context of spiritual/life coaching and waking up, so needless to say, this has turned some of that guidance on its head! ;) I'll have to see what arises as new ways to talk about things.

Are there resources for continuing this work?

Love,
Lisa

[forgetmenot]

Hi Lisa,

We aren't quite done yet. So that we are both clear that you are clear and have had the realisation, I would like you to answer the following questions with some detail please...and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Love, Kay

[Ldub]

Hi Kay!

Gotcha - it sounded like you were getting ready to cut me loose, so was just wondering about next steps!
Alrighty:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, there's not a separate 'self/me/I' not has it ever existed. It is a story/concept.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

The illusion of separate self creates a distinction between What Is and the concept of an 'I' as being separate and different from What Is. It shows up in ways such as colors identified as a 'body, body parts', 'other', sensations that belong to a 'body', thoughts about 'me' and 'you', thoughts about 'making things happen', 'choosing' and experiences had by an 'I'. Through inquiry, what is different now is that I see these are all thoughts/stories/concepts that at a very deep, basic, fundamental level have created the illusion of separation. There can still be a 'pull' towards the story line, but as the thoughts arise, there's not an 'I' for them to attach to.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels free-ing, lighter, like something that keeps unveiling itself as the story line appears and disappears. The difference from before I started this dialogue is that there's more clarity, there's been a perspective shift and with the skill of LOOKING I'm able to keep seeing the layers of story/concepts.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

When you told me to re-read my thread and LOOK at AE instead of thoughts. I saw that there had been confused thoughts/thinking happening but not actual looking.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

All of the above words are concepts focused around an 'I' able to 'do' these things - make decisions, set intention, exercise choice, exert control, and that there's a 'free will' (belonging to who?) that can be exercised. I don't know what makes things happen or work other than What Is - the thing happening is What Is.
Example of how things happen/work: a thought arises and disappears; the color labeled 'body' appears in a color labeled 'mirror'; color labeled 'hand' 'reaches' for color labeled 'salt' and thought labeled 'salt'. How things happen is they just do - and there's no knowing 'I' have that says 'it works this way'.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

I'm not responsible for anything. There is no 'me' that makes choices, decisions, speaks, sees, etc so there is no-thing to be responsible for and no 'me' that is 'doing' the things. Sometimes 'my hand' flips over with the thought 'flip over' and sometimes it doesn't. The thought 'flip over' can appear and the 'hand' doesn't flip over. 'I' say hello to one 'person' but not 'others'. 'I' reach for one drink but not the other.

6) Anything to add?

One area I'd like to see if I'm clear on is 'dreaming'. AE is colors, mental image, thoughts, thought about content, sometimes sensation,sometimes sound. Yes?

Thanks Kay!

[forgetmenot]

Hello Lisa,

One area I'd like to see if I'm clear on is 'dreaming'. AE is colors, mental image, thoughts, thought about content, sometimes sensation,sometimes sound. Yes?

I don't understand your question. You will have to be more clear in what you are asking.

Love, Kay

[Ldub]

Hi Kay -

I'm curious about the concept of 'sleeping' actually. I'm clear there's no 'me' that's dreaming, choosing the content or anything about what appears, and there's no choice around when 'sleep' begins/ends and no 'me' that's there to experience it. So my question is around the experience of the seeming shift from 'awake' to 'asleep'? With looking, there's AE of 'awake' - colors, thought, sensation, sound, smell, thoughts about 'being awake'. Then there's not. Then the story of 'time' arises that 'time has passed' and AE of colors, thought, sensation, sound, smell, thoughts about 'being awake'.

I hope I don't get the stick on this question.

:=) Lisa

[forgetmenot]

Hello Lisa,

Those questions are beyond the confines of the thread. This forum is about seeing through the idea of the separate self. There are many places on the internet and on FB that would be able to to help you with those other burning questions you have. My only role here, is to make sure that you have 100% realised that there is no separate self.

Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?


Love, Kay

[Ldub]

Hi Kay -

Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?

Yes, I have realized that through this exploration.

Love,
Lisa