I am ready for liberation

[Ela]

Hi Ingen,
I am in Toronto Canada

that sounds good! ...if you are not only rephrasing to "anger is here", but SEE that it is just an energy showing up, and disappearing again, together with whatever thought comes with it.

Yes, it will just to SEE and feel the energy and thoughts. It will probably take some time before this becomes routine.

How is it to live with this insight? Has your experience changed compared to before?

How is it to be out in nature, going for a walk. Does it feel different?

How is it to be together with other people, possibly irritating situations. Somebody is treating you unfair. How do you react?

It is amazing to live with this insight!!!! Everything is the same but slightly different on the inside. I am much lighter, happier without the burden of this heavy "me".
It was an amazing day. I felt liberated. Being outdoors, I felt like as if I was truly not there as a person, but just this presence, being. I had a realisation of what the masters mean by oneness. It is not that you are one with everything, but you are not there (not lost in thinking) so what is left is only this. It is hard to explain this subtle shift in perception.
This new perception made me feel so free and happy. Perhaps this was the moment of truly starting to feel what it means to LOOK and realise that I am not there at all. The world seems to be more beautiful and I paid more attention to details.
Later on, I noticed that I get lost in useless thinking many times. I also notice when I start to feel anxious when I need to be on time.
I had a massage today, so I tried to stay present with all the sensations, but I kept loosing the presence in useless thinking. The seeing is there but I get lost in the mind and feel like a separate person when I am not reminding myself. I keep checking, looking to remind myself.
Are this normal that the "me" shows up and the seeing needs to be reconfirmed. I don't want to ever go back to what was before. I know this is just the beginning, so I want to continue participate in aftercare.
I noticed also that I stayed calm when my husband had some issues with me. The feeling of anger came up for example when my husband seem to bee not respecting my schedule, but it quickly subsided when I saw that it would be useless arguing. I will find a solution and I did.
In the avenging, I was emotional. I cried and laughed for no reason just from joy.
I FEEL VERY GREATFULL to Neeel and you Ingen and everybody on this website for helping me realise this freedom. I kept reading many posts of people who went through and this also helped me to SEE). I tried to figure it out with my mind and I got so confused that finally a thought came probably from Adyashanti "you can not get it with the mind" and I relaxed (let all air out with a ahh……..) and looked. And I was not here. That's when the realisation came that this must be IT, this simple thing that I saw before and my mind dismissed it. I am so happy.
I would love to become a guide myself and help others.
With love,
Ela

[Ingen]

Dear Ela,

I'm very happy to hear that.

Later on, I noticed that I get lost in useless thinking many times.

Is there a you to get lost in useless thinking? Or is there just a thought showing up in the chain of useless thoughts, saying: "I am getting lost"? That was a biggie for me. Because I was constantly lost in thinking before, until I realized, that I couldn't get lost, because... you know :)

I tried to stay present with all the sensations, but I kept loosing the presence in useless thinking. The seeing is there but I get lost in the mind and feel like a separate person when I am not reminding myself. I keep checking, looking to remind myself.

If you are not present with the sensations, something else is present - e.g. thought.
The feeling of being a separate person - is that more than a feeling? Showing up in "this"? Feeling separate is a habit that might or might not disappear. What if it doesn't disappear? Does that create a separate you? Btw. it is more likely to disappear if you just allow things to be as they are. Resistance gives it energy. And if there is resistance, allow that to be...

If the feeling of bliss and oneness disappears - and it probably will as soon as the newness wears out - will that make a solid you appear again? If there is a feeling of contraction, anger or fear: look at how these feelings try to protect a non- existing self.

"You" cannot stay present because the "You" is exactly the thought pattern that wants something different from what is happening now. Striving for the happy ever after. Which will never come...
----
I think there will be agreement in the guide group that you have seen what there is to see :). We can keep talking here as long as you want, and I'll send you an invitation to our FB groups as soon as you are confirmed.

Much love! Ingen

[Ela]

Hi Ingen,
I really appreciate your last post. I needed this clarification.
Indeed there is not me that got lost, only a thought after getting lost in thinking claiming this. So the getting lost happens, and getting back happens and then the thought "I should stay present, I am still getting lost" and a feeling of beeping a separate person happens and another thought, I am loosing this, something is wrong.. creates a feeling of resistance to what is happening (thinking, feeling etc...). So, there is only one thing to do, just look what is happening effortlessly now, and allow it. The feeling of fear is a big one for me to allow. It may be easier now when I don't make it into my fear and treat it as a misguided friend.
I agree, that completely with what you said about the Me is just a thought pattern that wants something else than what is happening, wanting happy aver after that will never come.
Thank you for further clarification.
I actually had a chance to observe this today when I got upset. I noticed the thoughts saying something about how unfair this is any anger, frustration build. I stopped and allowed the anger to be there. It it did not last too long.
Thank you Ingen,
With love,
Ela

[Ela]

Hi Ingen again,
I woke up in the middle of the night and started to read your post with Trinity. It was very interesting read. It made me realise that I still have this subtle identification with the life experiencing itself through this body, through these senses. This creates an image of this being a been of light for life to experience. Another sticky point that keeps bothering me is that I still think that it makes a difference to life experience if there is the be live in separate sell or not. In case of be life in separation, the life force is stolen by this me thinking and but otherwise it could express in more life affirming was. This thinking, though creates a feeling of there is something to do, to improve.
The idea of no soul still does not ring true to me. When a baby is born, it has a character from the start. Is it not a unique expression of life that you can call soul that is a part of what is. I am getting confused now, because this actually does create the sense of separate experience.

I want to run this by you while I still have a chance to chat with you, because I want to be completely clear.
I wonder if you can give me some idea how to be clear on this.
Thank you,
Ela

[Ingen]

Hi Ela,
good that you address your doubts!!!!!!!!!! and some more: !!!!!!!! "Confirmation by LU doesn't buy you anything anywhere. I hope some others read that, too.

I still have this subtle identification with the life experiencing itself through this body, through these senses. This creates an image of this being a been of light for life to experience.

I don't see anything wrong with the first part of the sentence. Life experiencing itself, yes! I don't quite understand what you mean with "a been of light for life to experience"? A being of light? Can you explain?
If you call it life experiencing itself, or "the Universe" or "all" or "God" or "This" or "the Unknown" is ok. As long as you know it is not you.

I still think that it makes a difference to life experience if there is the be live in separate sell or not. In case of be life in separation, the life force is stolen by this me thinking and but otherwise it could express in more life affirming was. This thinking, though creates a feeling of there is something to do, to improve.

Do I understand correctly that you think it is better not to think of yourself as a separate being? And this makes you want to improve your thinking?
Just see that "I have to improve my thinking" is also just another thought. Which will arise until it doesn't arise anymore. It is another idea picked up from our culture which is so much into "improving" things. And these ideas get played again and again like on a broken record player. Until they run out of power.

The idea of no soul still does not ring true to me. When a baby is born, it has a character from the start. Is it not a unique expression of life that you can call soul that is a part of what is. I am getting confused now, because this actually does create the sense of separate experience.

Sure, character traits exist, already in a newborn. They depend on genes, on circumstances in the womb, during birth, and many more factors. Nobody says that everybody is the same. But "soul" implies a core, a personal essence, a kind of separate parcel of some kind of spiritual substance. I don't say this spiritual substance doesn't exist (I don't know!) There is just no dividing line between this spiritual thing- which you could also call life, the Universe, God etc. - and the individual organism. And of course there is no individual organism separate from the environment. Just think of the oxygen in your blood...

Please keep digging until everything is clear.

[Ela]

Hi Ingen,
Sorry for the spelling mistakes. I have a new spell-check feature on my tablet and it did mess up things instead of helping. This time I am using the computer where the quote feature works, bur there is no spell-check.

don't see anything wrong with the first part of the sentence. Life experiencing itself, yes! I don't quite understand what you mean with "a been of light for life to experience"? A being of light? Can you explain?
If you call it life experiencing itself, or "the Universe" or "all" or "God" or "This" or "the Unknown" is ok. As long as you know it is not you

I was trying to reconcile the metaphor talking about people as rays of light emanating from one sun. Each ray is not separate from the sun but still in same way individual. Now I can actually see that the fantastic individuality is there in life (different body, intellect, abilities, talents, etc.) but this does not mean separate self.

Do I understand correctly that you think it is better not to think of yourself as a separate being? And this makes you want to improve your thinking?
Just see that "I have to improve my thinking" is also just another thought. Which will arise until it doesn't arise anymore. It is another idea picked up from our culture which is so much into "improving" things. And these ideas get played again and again like on a broken record player. Until they run out of power.

I was thinking about some ideas heard from spiritual teachers that life wants to become conscious of itself through the human form and there is a natural evolution in consciousness that leads to awakening. But I can see that those are just ideas that create a sense of separation and striving to become ...better this or that. I basically answered my own question. I can see that any believe in even subtle sense of separation creates this quest for improvement. The new story is created (good vs. evil which would be thoughts in this case).

Sure, character traits exist, already in a newborn. They depend on genes, on circumstances in the womb, during birth, and many more factors. Nobody says that everybody is the same. But "soul" implies a core, a personal essence, a kind of separate parcel of some kind of spiritual substance. I don't say this spiritual substance doesn't exist (I don't know!) There is just no dividing line between this spiritual thing- which you could also call life, the Universe, God etc. - and the individual organism. And of course there is no individual organism separate from the environment. Just think of the oxygen in your blood...

I was thinking about this for a while and looking at my experience. I see now that there is an essence but it is not personal. Even when you look at it from a rational point of view, we as people are very different, but in essence the same. We all want love and are love.
Another thought popped up. So life does not care if we are living in dream state and suffer. I noticed that it is again just a thought coming up from the feeling of separate person, as if life was separate from me and did not care about me. When I look. I see the unconditional love for all forms and no matter how simple or complex and experiences.
Much love,
Ela

[Ingen]

I understand you better without spell checking ;)

I see now that there is an essence but it is not personal.

How do you experience this essence? What is it like?

So life does not care if we are living in dream state and suffer. I noticed that it is again just a thought coming up from the feeling of separate person, as if life was separate from me and did not care about me.

Can you describe the "dream state" that causes suffering? Can you describe your suffering, now and before? Has anything changed?

When I look. I see the unconditional love for all forms and no matter how simple or complex and experiences.

That sounds nice. But what do you mean by "I see the unconditional love"? Is there a feeling of love for everything? Also for the bad guys? What is your take about the evil things that happen in this world?

[Ela]

Hi Ingen,

How do you experience this essence? What is it like?

I realise that it is just a different name for "this "I” awareness/presence to what is happening now, in this moment, including awareness of thoughts. It feels like being fully alive. There is relaxation and okayness.

Can you describe the "dream state" that causes suffering? Can you describe your suffering, now and before? Has anything changed?

The "dream state" is happening when there is believe in separate self that is responsible for everything and the feeling of something is missing, uneasiness, tension is present in the body. This is also a reason for suffering.
I always felt that something is wrong with me and I need to change somehow, improve myself so that I can fit in and get some love and attention and happiness. There was and still is a lot of negative, internal comments, judgements the made me feel hopeless and heavy. This conditioning is still operating and those thoughts and feelings come up, that is why it seems like "I " get lost in thinking,
What has changed now is that there is more lightness and piece, acceptance of what is happening, even that feeling of being lost, and anxious.
Yesterday I said something that upset my husband and I felt not so good about this situation inside. Before I would have said nothing or tried to defend my position, but this time I just said you are right, sorry don't be upset with me and kissed him. This is very new to me as before I would find something wrong with me of him. I am not so invested in protecting the non existent "me".

That sounds nice. But what do you mean by "I see the unconditional love"? Is there a feeling of love for everything? Also for the bad guys? What is your take about the evil things that happen in this world?

What I meant that when you look at nature, there is a feeling that everything is allowed (allowing everything is piece, love) as it is- no clouds, light clouds as well as heavy clouds and rain. The acceptance for how life expresses itself at the moments is what we mean by unconditional love. Love what is.
When I think of evil things that happen in the world, I feel sadness and compassion for both sides in the conflict. I can not judge the “bed guy” because I know that this person must have believed that this no-existing "I" needs to be protected at al cost and acted on this.
Thank you for helping me see more clearly,
with love,
Ela

[Ingen]

Hi Ela,

I realise that it is just a different name for "this "I” awareness/presence to what is happening now, in this moment, including awareness of thoughts.

This "I"-awareness? Or just awareness? Sorry for being such a hair-splitter. In my experience it makes a big difference to identify with awareness, meaning: blowing up the ego to god-size. Or acknowledging that all that is happening without ME.

I do think that you got it right, I just want to make sure....

It is nice to hear that life is getting lighter for you. How is it now to "get lost in thoughts"? Does that make you think you're "not there yet"?

Or, better said, do you still think there is someplace to get to?

[Ela]

Hi Ingen,
You are right , this sentence was not clear. There is awareness but it is not me. It just is the same as seeing, hearing, feeling, movement etc. Everything is happening without me. I don't exist in reality. ME is just a thought. I am not there yet is just a thought. There is nowhere to get go. It is only this present experience. I am clear now. I will probably get confused again , but all I need to do is look now and notice what is happening in reality and what is the story about it.
Thank you Ingen for staying with me to the end. I really like the way you do the enquiry.
with love,
Ela

[Ingen]

You're welcome, dear Ela.

I want to make sure you SEE what we are talking about. Not just agree that no self makes more sense than self, although of course that's true!

Can you expand a bit how the decisions in your life came about? Like the last job you took on, or the car you bought. Wasn't it you who decided to buy this car?

Where there ever any bad decisions that you took? How do they look from your point of view now?

And another thing, perception.
I don't recall if you have been through some perception exercises with neeel.

How does perception without perceiver work? Or do you assume a perceiver, is it YOU who is hearing a sound? I'll be happy to go through some exercises with you! It doesn't do any damage to do them again anyway.

[Ela]

Hi Ingen,
Thank you, I am happy to look at practical situations and see where I am.

Can you expand a bit how the decisions in your life came about? Like the last job you took on, or the car you bought. Wasn't it you who decided to buy this car?

The truth is that I had to spend some time looking and thinking about it, because the feeling "I did it" is still there.
The way I see it now is that the decisions happens as part of life unfolding certain way but the thought "I did it" comes later to claim it. The decisions happen in response to natural likes dislikes, abilities, situations, circumstances and conditioning and sometimes even the mood or weather or who knows what.
For example: I stopped working in January. I had enough of this work (which I did for over 20 years), for some time but I did not even think I could ever get out of this, but things happen, circumstances changed and eventually I am not working anymore. I can see that I did not do it.
The though "I decided to buy a car" comes up after the fact to describe what happened as a result of circumstances, thoughts, knowledge, natural preferences, conditioning, coincidence, mood etc.
In my case it happened because my old car broke and I needed a new car. Which car to buy was another decision than came about by reading about cars, asking people, test driving, and preferences? The intelligence of life itself unfolded certain way and the decision came out by itself. The thought "I decided" claims it.

Where there ever any bad decisions that you took? How do they look from your point of view now

This is very sticky. It feels still like bed decisions happened.
A year ago I rented an apartment to tenants that cause a lot of trouble. When I recently had an issue with them, the thought came “you shouldn't have taken them. You should have seen the signs that they will be bed tenants especially that you did made bed decision like this once before. You had so many people to choose from and you did not take any of them, why? You will never learn." This thought of course makes me feel really bed.
From the new point of view, I can see that I couldn’t make any other decision then I did. The truth is that I was scared to make any decision because of fear of taking a wrong tenant, so I procrastinated until finally the circumstances forced me to act. The thought "I made this wrong decision" came after. This is also automatic as part of a habitual thought pattern that cause the fear of decision making in the first place. It is a vicious circle.
It feels like this was a bed decision but how I see it now is that the decision happened as a result of how life was unfolding at that moment and only thoughts (ego) put a label "I made a wrong decision" on it to perpetuate the believe in its existence.

How does perception without perceiver work? Or do you assume a perceiver, is it YOU who is hearing a sound? I'll be happy to go through some exercises with you! It doesn't do any damage to do them again anyway.

The perception just happens naturally. There is no need for a perceiver. When I open the eyes, the view appears. The thought "I saw" is just describing in words what happened by itself. I am clear on that.
Thank you,
Ela

[Ingen]

Thank you for elaborating on that, Ela.

You couldn't make a better decision because there was only one possible decision. A thousand factors worked together so that "you" were forced by circumstances (genes, psychological makeup... ) to wait until the moment of the decision.
How does water decide which way to take around a stone? It just flows until circumstances force it to take a certain way. Next time circumstances will be different.

Can you figure out some of the factors that made you wait for "too long"?

it feels like this was a bed decision but how I see it now is that the decision happened as a result of how life was unfolding at that moment

this: "a result of how life was unfolding at that moment" is a very general statement.
How was life unfolding at this moment?

[Ela]

The factors that made me wait for too long is my psychological makeup, habit , fear of making a mistake .

How was life unfolding at that moment?
What I mean is that I am certain way and they they also, so I guess this had to happen.
First of all these people called me and I was available to go there and see them. I could have been busy or lazy and or not available. The woman claimed to be very sick and needed a place. I am a "spiritual person" so I was drawn to help them.
They were very persistent and nice. There was fear in me of not finding anybody and a desire to have it done and over with. I kind of made a story that they will be okay, even though I saw some things that were a red flag.
The decision happened with these conflicting feelings.

[Ingen]

What I mean is that I am certain way and they they also, so I guess this had to happen.

Do you SEE that all these factors played out without a you? That they are the flow of life, plus stories, also being part of the flow? That there is nothing BUT this flow...

Or do you still feel like you could/should have decided otherwise? Are you ok. with "everthing is happening on automatic"?

Do you still feel like a spiritual person?