The final push

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

And is there a thinker in non-direct experience?
Thoughts are there and they create the illusion of ‘me’ doing the thinking. As soon a thoughts are there, ‘I’ am there. It is not so that the illusion has been lifted, even though when looked closely, it is seen they are only thoughts.

So you have power over thoughts?
You can make thoughts stop?
How do you make thoughts stop? Do you put your hands out saying ‘no’? :) Or how exactly?
No. That’s the illusion again. There is focussing and thoughts saying “I am focussing”. Sometimes the result of the focussing is that there are less thoughts.

"all my experiences are very pure, direct, and beautiful."
So you are the experiencer?
Experience is happening to you? Or coming to you?
There are moments that the sense of the me is not there, but oftentimes it is there. And then when looking at it, it is seen that it is just one of the experiences. But it is telling the story that I am having the experiences.

"An overwhelming feeling of happiness overflows me."
And who/what is feeling this happiness?
What does happiness happening to?
Where is the feeler?
There is an idea of a me to which the happiness is happening, yes. It is the feeler of the feelings. It’s located in thoughts, experienced together with the other experiences.

"All this beauty, always here, all you have to do is look."
And what is doing the looking?
Is there a person doing the looking?
It’s difficult to explain, but when there is no thought, looking just happens. There is no one looking. My next sentence was going to be that ‘I’ come in to being as soon as thoughts come up. But now all of sudden there is a realization that when there is a lot of thought, there is also no one looking. As if looking is impersonal. There are a lot of thoughts now, whining over the ‘me’ and how miserable ‘I’ am for being a me, but through it all, there is looking. Just impersonal, unaffected looking.

"A sweet sense of oneness. More often than not though, thought overshadows this direct experience and narrating throws you back in the hassles of daily life."
And do you think that this state of no thoughts = seeing no-self?
No, it may a beginning. But thought will always come and the trick is to see no self when the thoughts ARE there.
Do you think that seeing through the self means being in this state permanently?
No. The hassles of daily life will always be there, with or without a belief in a self. And analytic (dualistic) thinking has to happen in order to function as a human being.

"I could not really stop my thoughts while doing it,"
But you tried stopping your thoughts? What is doing that? What is trying to stop thoughts appearing?
It’s weird because this is almost the same question as above, but now the experience it different again, and I want to give a different answer. The experience is actually that there appears a thought ‘slow down your thought, focus on what there is’, then there is focussing and then thoughts slow down, or not. So there was actually no one doing anything, just this sequence of appearances.

"I tried to trace back the source of the moving but couldn’t find anything but emptiness."
Emptiness is a popular concept, but can actually emptiness be experienced?
What do you refer to exactly when you use the word ‘emptiness’?
Hihi, you’re right emptiness cannot be experienced. It is the absence of experience. What I meant was that I could not find anything that did the moving.

Thank you!
All the best, Cal

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

Thoughts are there and they create the illusion of ‘me’ doing the thinking. As soon a thoughts are there, ‘I’ am there. It is not so that the illusion has been lifted, even though when looked closely, it is seen they are only thoughts.

Look at this very closely.

When there are thoughts, is there an actual I, an actual real person there?

It is not so that the illusion has been lifted,

Do you expect that the illusion of the self should stop as the result of this investigation?
Is seeing through the illusion means no more illusion anymore?

There are moments that the sense of the me is not there, but oftentimes it is there. And then when looking at it, it is seen that it is just one of the experiences. But it is telling the story that I am having the experiences.

And is that a problem that thoughts are telling a story of “I’m having the experience”?
Do you expect that these thoughts should stop appearing?

There is an idea of a me to which the happiness is happening, yes. It is the feeler of the feelings. It’s located in thoughts, experienced together with the other experiences.

Are you clearly seeing this experientally that the me whom happiness is happening to is only an idea? Or rather this is just an intellectual understanding?

It’s difficult to explain, but when there is no thought, looking just happens. There is no one looking. My next sentence was going to be that ‘I’ come in to being as soon as thoughts come up. But now all of sudden there is a realization that when there is a lot of thought, there is also no one looking.

Look at this more closely.

Is this really true than the I comes into being as soon as there are thoughts?

When there is a thought ‘I’, is there an actual person there? Or all there is just the simple word/thought I as part of a sentence?

Is the self/I is something that come in and out of existence?
Or is it always there?
Or never there?

Be very careful not just to think about it, but actually check what is here in this very moment (and what is not).

No, it may a beginning. But thought will always come and the trick is to see no self when the thoughts ARE there.

Exactly! The presence or the absence of thoughts have nothing to do with the belief in the self. The self is either believed to exist or not, REGARDLESS of the presence of thoughts.

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

I did my best again, spending several hours on the looking, but pffff, it so hard!

When there are thoughts, is there an actual I, an actual real person there?
No, there are only thoughts. Thoughts about a me. They seem real, but that’s only because other thoughts are saying they are.

Do you expect that the illusion of the self should stop as the result of this investigation?
Well, I start to see more clearly that thoughts about a me will remain but they are realised for what they are, just thoughts. Not referring to anything real.

Is seeing through the illusion means no more illusion anymore?
So I guess it’s the belief that the thoughts are real that will be gone, but not the thoughts themselves.

And is that a problem that thoughts are telling a story of “I’m having the experience”?
When I close my eyes and observe thoughts, I notice there are a lot of me thoughts, thoughts that are saying: “But you are real, don’t be stupid. What, all of a sudden you don’t exist anymore?” And there are other thoughts going: “Darn, they are right, if they are still believed, I’m still not gone!” Even though I know it’s one big silly happening, there still some resistance against having those thoughts.

Do you expect that these thoughts should stop appearing?
No, but no longer believed, or cared about

Are you clearly seeing this experientally that the me whom happiness is happening to is only an idea? Or rather this is just an intellectual understanding?
I have some clear moments, but it’s mostly intellectual I’m afraid.

Is this really true than the I comes into being as soon as there are thoughts?
I intellectually know it is not true, because all that exist of an I is thoughts of I and thoughts are not real. However, this it is not my experience. The sense of or belief in I, comes with thought. Like in the morning, the moment I wake up, conscious thoughts start running again and ‘pop’, there I am.

When there is a thought ‘I’, is there an actual person there? Or all there is just the simple word/thought I as part of a sentence?
I really don’t get it because if I look in to this, there is really nothing but sentences indeed, talking about I.

Is the self/I is something that come in and out of existence?
Or is it always there?
Or never there?
And also here, I look really long and close and there is no trace of an I whatsoever. All there is are sensations. And of course thoughts, saying it is me. For some reason, they are believed.

Thanks again so much for you time and effort!

Best, Cal

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

When I close my eyes and observe thoughts, I notice there are a lot of me thoughts, thoughts that are saying: “But you are real, don’t be stupid. What, all of a sudden you don’t exist anymore?”

It’s not about suddenly not existing anymore.
It’s about seeing that the self HAS NEVER EVER existed.
It has always been just a fictional character. Never a reality.

And there are other thoughts going: “Darn, they are right, if they are still believed, I’m still not gone!”

It seems Cal that you believe that currently there is a real self here, but as the result of this inquiry the me/self will be gone. But this cannot be further from the truth.

What is it that is saying ‘I am still not gone”? What/who is making this statement?

Be careful not to think. Rather search for the one that is saying this.

Even though I know it’s one big silly happening, there still some resistance against having those thoughts.

Find the one who is resisting.

Where is it? Where is the one resisting?
Is it in the chest? In the head? In the throat? At the top of the head? Where?

The sense of or belief in I, comes with thought. Like in the morning, the moment I wake up, conscious thoughts start running again and ‘pop’, there I am.

When you go to bed tonight, make a firm intention that when you wake up in the next morning, the first thing you will do, while still in the bed, is to check what it is exactly that woke up.

Investigate this as a first think after waking up:

What is it exactly that wakes up?

Is Cal wakes up, or the body wakes up and starts to function, including thinking ABOUT Cal?

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

This is what did today:

What is it that is saying ‘I am still not gone”? What/who is making this statement?
There was looking again for quite some time and a large structure of thoughts, beliefs, and expectations were seen that are telling the Cal story. No evidence whatsoever could be found that this structure was in fact real. Yet, it has a certain power still. For example, there is also mental structure of Spiderman (and I’m a big fan), but this one is totally unimportant. Has no power at all. I guess there is an expectation that the Cal structure should be just as powerless as Spiderman’s.

Where is it? Where is the one resisting?
Is it in the chest? In the head? In the throat? At the top of the head? Where?
It can’t really be found in a location. It is part of this mental structure about Cal. It is based on the belief that some elements of the structure must be changed or fall away. These beliefs lead to a strong motivation to work on something, to find something, or loose something. It is this motivation that lead to this this writing, this talking to you. There is an idea that something is not as it should be and needs to be changed.
At the same time all this looking helps to see that it’s all just make belief and it all doesn’t matter the slightest what thoughts say.

What is it exactly that wakes up? Is Cal wakes up, or the body wakes up and starts to function, including thinking ABOUT Cal?
It was difficult to pinpoint what exactly wakes up, it was more of a change in the type of thoughts there were happening. Dream-like thoughts and images were replaced by Cal-images and thoughts in a few seconds and a feeling of dream vagueness was replaced by a clearer reality awareness. There was a noticing that indeed the only thing that was changed was thoughts. I'm gonna try this again tomorrow morning.

Thanks! have nice day!
Giel

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

This is what did today:

What is it that is saying ‘I am still not gone”? What/who is making this statement?
There was looking again for quite some time and a large structure of thoughts, beliefs, and expectations were seen that are telling the Cal story. No evidence whatsoever could be found that this structure was in fact real. Yet, it has a certain power still. For example, there is also mental structure of Spiderman (and I’m a big fan), but this one is totally unimportant. Has no power at all. I guess there is an expectation that the Cal structure should be just as powerless as Spiderman’s.

Where is it? Where is the one resisting?
Is it in the chest? In the head? In the throat? At the top of the head? Where?
It can’t really be found in a location. It is part of this mental structure about Cal. It is based on the belief that some elements of the structure must be changed or fall away. These beliefs lead to a strong motivation to work on something, to find something, or loose something. It is this motivation that lead to this this writing, this talking to you. There is an idea that something is not as it should be and needs to be changed.
At the same time all this looking helps to see that it’s all just make belief and it all doesn’t matter the slightest what thoughts say.

What is it exactly that wakes up? Is Cal wakes up, or the body wakes up and starts to function, including thinking ABOUT Cal?
It was difficult to pinpoint what exactly wakes up, it was more of a change in the type of thoughts there were happening. Dream-like thoughts and images were replaced by Cal-images and thoughts in a few seconds and a feeling of dream vagueness was replaced by a clearer reality awareness. There was a noticing that indeed the only thing that was changed was thoughts. I'm gonna try this again tomorrow morning.

Thanks! have nice day!
Cal

[CalFatman]

Oops, I accidentally gave my real name in the post (Giel, it's Dutch for Cal). Not a big deal. But when I tried to edit it, I replied with quote. Couldn't find an edit button.

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

What is it that is saying ‘I am still not gone”? What/who is making this statement?

There was looking again for quite some time and a large structure of thoughts, beliefs, and expectations were seen that are telling the Cal story. No evidence whatsoever could be found that this structure was in fact real. Yet, it has a certain power still. For example, there is also mental structure of Spiderman (and I’m a big fan), but this one is totally unimportant. Has no power at all. I guess there is an expectation that the Cal structure should be just as powerless as Spiderman’s.

Let’s look at what is happening here. I give you a pointer in the form of a questions WHERE TO LOOK.
And it seems that there is some looking happening, but it quickly turns to rationalizing and describing how things seems to be for you.

Where is it? Where is the one resisting?
Is it in the chest? In the head? In the throat? At the top of the head? Where?

It can’t really be found in a location. It is part of this mental structure about Cal. It is based on the belief that some elements of the structure must be changed or fall away. These beliefs lead to a strong motivation to work on something, to find something, or loose something. It is this motivation that lead to this this writing, this talking to you. There is an idea that something is not as it should be and needs to be changed.
At the same time all this looking helps to see that it’s all just make belief and it all doesn’t matter the slightest what thoughts say.

The same thing happened here.
A little looking followed by a long intellectual explanation how you perceive things to be.

You have to change the ratio.
Hardly spend any time thinking, and spend 99% of the time looking where those questions are pointing.

Don’t just quickly jump to conclusions that it’s just a thought telling a story… and then focus on the story on Cal…
Rather, look it again and again and again. And totally ignore what the story is about.
You spend much more time in story-land than actually looking at what is here right now.

What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) a thought into existence?

Don’t just make a quick statement that I don’t do anything and then thinking and analyzing why and how the self is still feels true. Since if the self feels to be there then you are clearly not seeing that you are not doing the thinking.

And it’s not enough to see it when looking, you have incorporate looking into your daily life, to see that you are NEVER EVER make any thought happen, even when looking.

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

Thanks again for your insightful comments and questions. I feel I need to take a bit more time with these, but I'll get back to you tomorrow.

All the best, Cal

[Vivien]

All right, thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day, Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

What do you do exactly in order to think?
I tried to look this from different angles. For example by doing a mental task like: How many male names with a J do you know? John, James, Jones, etc. Or divide 164 by 3 etc. To check how thinking is done. I realized that thinking happens, but not by a me. There is no indication that I am doing that thinking. Also by letting thought answer the question like: “Well, somebody asks how I spent my weekend and then I search my memory for the relevant info, formulate it in to a sentence and reply. That’s how I think.” But then the realization occurred that it is unknown who’s thought that is. I always thought that I was doing that thinking, but that’s not possible because the I is part of the thought itself. The I is being thought.

How do you make (or birth) a thought into existence?
I tried to focus on the very next thought that would come in to existence, to see where it came from. But I simply couldn’t do it. My thoughts wandered off in all directions, without any clue where they came from or in which direction they would go. It’s kind of strange questions actually, because the ‘I’ is thought into existence itself. There is no control over thought.

Cheers,
Cal

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

I always thought that I was doing that thinking, but that’s not possible because the I is part of the thought itself. The I is being thought.

Great!
So how much of this is actually seen experientially, and how much of this is coming from logical conclusion?

Is this totally clear without any doubt that there is no control over thoughts? None at all?

I tried to focus on the very next thought that would come in to existence, to see where it came from. But I simply couldn’t do it.

Can you know what is going to be your next thought before it appears?
Do everything you can to know your next thought before it appears.

Please notice thoughts throughout your day as often as possible.
Is there any thought, any at all, that doesn’t happen on its own, automatically, without anyone or anything doing it?

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

Can you know what is going to be your next thought before it appears?
Do everything you can to know your next thought before it appears.
It’s funny because I think I found a way to be able to the predict the next thought. For example when thought is counting: 1, 2, 3, 4…. Then by the time you are at 4 you know what the next thought is gong to be. However I realize that’s not what this is about. Thought may be predictable to some extent, but who’s predicting? You can never know your next thought because ‘you’ are a thought yourself. There is no you outside of thought capable of knowing thought. That’s the illusion.


Is there any thought, any at all, that doesn’t happen on its own, automatically, without anyone or anything doing it?
There has been a lot of thinking about these questions throughout the day. Focussing on every thought, where they came from, who’s was thinking. A lot of discussion between thoughts even about this. “Was that me thinking that?”, “Depends on who is asking. Are you me? Or am I me?” Etc. But there was a clear recognition that is was all like a mental program that runs itself. Imprinted in the person Cal because of his learning history.

So how much of this is actually seen experientially, and how much of this is coming from logical conclusion? Is this totally clear without any doubt that there is no control over thoughts? None at all?
It is seen very clearly right now. Not via some big epiphany or something, but more like a very natural understanding, like it never could have been otherwise. I would like to continue looking though, just to make sure that the system is completely cleaned.

Thanks and all the best,
Cal

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

It’s funny because I think I found a way to be able to the predict the next thought. For example when thought is counting: 1, 2, 3, 4…. Then by the time you are at 4 you know what the next thought is gong to be. However I realize that’s not what this is about.

Dear Cal, this is a pure speculation. Instead, let’s see what is actually happening.

Slowly count… 1.. 2… 3… 4….

Can you REALLY know in advance what the next thought will be before it arrives?
If you say yes, how do you what is it? You know it because the THOUGHT of “the next thought is going to be 5” has ALREADY ARRIVED, don’t you?

Before this thought arriving, can it be known what it’s going to be?

If you indeed know that the next thoughts going to be, then it means that you MUST BE the thinker, the creator of thoughts. You must be the one who make thoughts into existence.

But do you see that a thought cannot be known before it exists?

Do you see that thoughts can only be know when they are ALREADY THERE, but not before?

If it seems that you know it advance, isn’t it because a thought is ALREADY THERE stating “it’s going to be 5”?

There has been a lot of thinking about these questions throughout the day.

Please don’t think. Thinking can only lead to intellectualization not to an experiential recognition.
It’s very important that you don’t just think it through and make a logical conclusion. But rather, LOOK very closely what is happening in your immediate experience.

Please try to ‘intentionally’ think of a 2-digit number. After, investigate:
Why did you choose that number?
Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know?
If not, why don’t you know?

If you are the thinker of thoughts, then you must know EXACTLY how you create them.
So how did you create the thought of the number you choose?

Repeat the experiment at least 10 times (or more) before replying.

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

My answers may seem a bit short this time. Not because I didn’t look carefully, but because everything was seen quite clearly.

“Dear Cal, this is a pure speculation. Instead, let’s see what is actually happening. Slowly count… 1.. 2… 3… 4….”
Can you REALLY know in advance what the next thought will be before it arrives?
No you can’t know for sure of course until it’s there. I meant that as soon thought has been counting to 4, it’s likely that the next thought will be 5. But other distracting thoughts may intervene so you can’t be sure a 100%. It’s merely predicting.

If you say yes, how do you what is it? You know it because the THOUGHT of “the next thought is going to be 5” has ALREADY ARRIVED, don’t you?
Yes.

Before this thought arriving, can it be known what it’s going to be?
No. Never absolutely for sure. Thoughts come and go by themselves. It would be like knowing what the weather is tomorrow.

But do you see that a thought cannot be known before it exists? Do you see that thoughts can only be know when they are ALREADY THERE, but not before?
Yes, because if they were known, it would have to be in the form of thoughts, meaning they would already exist.

If it seems that you know it advance, isn’t it because a thought is ALREADY THERE stating “it’s going to be 5”?
Yes.

“Please try to ‘intentionally’ think of a 2-digit number. After, investigate:”
Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know?
I don’t know. Sometimes, thoughts arise that try to offer an explanation (“that number is in my date of birth” or “a high number this time, because the previous ones were low”), but that’s it.

If not, why don’t you know?
Because I don’t make the choice. They just pop up. There is also not a me that can know. Numbers appear, then some thoughts that relate to your questions, but that is all.

So how did you create the thought of the number you choose?
I didn’t. There was no I and there and no act of creation, just numbers from out of nowhere.


All the best,
Cal