Ready and waiting

[Clarrie]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is that there is no inherent self that is running my life. Despite me operating All my life like there is.
LU offers focused guiding as a way to see this truth and see through the idea of a separate self.

What are you looking for at LU?
I just want to bust through this delusion of a separate inherent self. This deluded thinking has caused me a lot of suffering over the years. I feel that I Cant shift this intellectual understanding into an experiential One

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would be really pleased with an Open and honest, patient and kind 2 way dialogue that is focused at helping me see through any idea that there is a self here. Any helpful pointers/suggestions would be appreciated

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
A practicing buddhist for 7 years.
Interested in non duality teachings for last 3 years through reading books, podcasts etc

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Vivien]

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.
The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?

Vivien

[Clarrie]

Hello Vivien,
What a pleasant surprise. Such a quick response to my request for a guide. Thankyou so much. I’m looking forward to this journey. And very grateful for your time and energy.

Yes, I’m happy to post daily, and will let you know if I cant, or I need more time. I will, more often than not, submit posts in the evenings.

Your questions today have been quite thought provoking.

What am I really looking for?
After much thought and a list of dot points ultimately this would be ‘inner calm and peace with however things are and with whatever arises’.

How would my life change if I found this?
It probably wouldn’t change much on the outside. It may slow down a bit. I may choose to spend more time being, rather than doing. But I would hope that however my energy was being channeled it would express itself more fully through kindness, connection and compassion for all of life.

What do I hope will change? I hope my self perception/view changes. I hope my ‘other’ view changes. I hope that some fear drops away. Fear of what might happen to ‘me’ if etc,etc,etc. Fear has really dominated my life in so many obvious and subtle ways. And its exhausting to keep finding ways to hide from it. And I hope that I stop, or at least slow down the seemingly endless search for love, approval, connection, the next pleasure etc.

What do I hope might happen? I hope to feel more authentic.

Do I have an image of what seeing through self illusion might be /feel like?
The Buddhist ‘Wheel of Life’ is the image that jumps into my mind. Specifically the points on the wheel where one can transcend the wheel.

I hope that I’ve provided enough detail for you.

Kindest regards,
Clarrie

[Vivien]

Hi Clarrie,

What a pleasant surprise. Such a quick response to my request for a guide. Thankyou so much. I’m looking forward to this journey. And very grateful for your time and energy.

You are most welcome :) It’s nice to meet you, even if just virtually.

Before starting, I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
So here is the link to a video again how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I will go through them, and notice if there is any resistance to any of it.

After much thought and a list of dot points ultimately this would be ‘inner calm and peace with however things are and with whatever arises’.

Yes, this is what we all want. But seeing through the self illusion is not about getting into a special state of inner calmness and peace, and not having half of the human emotions (the unpleasant ones).

Happiness or peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

It may slow down a bit. I may choose to spend more time being, rather than doing.

And what if there is no you how could spend more time being rather than doing?

But I would hope that however my energy was being channeled it would express itself more fully through kindness, connection and compassion for all of life.

What you are talking about is self-improvement. To be a better, nicer, kinder person. But seeing through the self is not about changing this self-phenomenon. It might happen as a by-product, or might not.

I hope my self perception/view changes. I hope my ‘other’ view changes. I hope that some fear drops away. Fear of what might happen to ‘me’ if etc,etc,etc. Fear has really dominated my life in so many obvious and subtle ways.

This might or might not happen as a by-product. It cannot know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside form the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character, and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

And the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.

And I hope that I stop, or at least slow down the seemingly endless search for love, approval, connection, the next pleasure etc.

These will probably require some further investigation.

Please ponder on these comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

I feel that I Cant shift this intellectual understanding into an experiential One

This is what will be the goal of our exploration, to see it experientially that there is no separate self, and not just understand it intellectually.

All I ask for is answering from your own experience, as you see it. Put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you experience, rather than what you have learned/know.

The basics of looking is this: you can tell me what is behind your back in two ways
1. You can think about it, remember and tell me from thinking.
2. You can turn around, see it and describe.

So in this investigation I ask you to look at and describe what you experience and not what you think, remember or imagine.

Do you feel ready to start the investigation? If yes, please investigate the followings:

As you go about your everyday life, how does the self/I/me show up?

Don’t go to the story about the me, rather look at the me itself.
What is it like? What is it made of? Does it have a shape or a color? How big it is? And where is its exact location?

What does the word I actually point to? If you take a finger (literally) and land it on I, where does it land?

Can you see, smell, hear, taste, touch the I? Try it, with each sense.

Vivien

[Clarrie]

Hi Vivien,
Thanks for your feedback, and yes I'm ready to start exploring.

As you go about your everyday life, how does the self/I/me show up?

Yesturday I wasn’t aware of a ‘me’ at all whilst I was busy working and involved in a task, until someone at work called my name and came looking for me. ‘yep that’s me, there looking for me’ I thought ‘I’m in here’ I called out. And they found me and we discussed a small issue and they left. I got back to my task. Then Reflected on what had just happened…I heard my name, that got my attention. Discussion happened. Problem was solved. I was aware of a pleasurable sort of feeling that I can only describe as personal satisfaction. A bit of an ego boost really. Lasted a short time. There was a bit of a story that lingered around that. But I was quickly onto the next task, and it too passed. There was hearing my name , then a thought of ‘that’s me’. Then conversation. Followed by a pleasant feeling. Followed by another thought story about how fabulous I am. This scenario repeated itself multiple times throughout my work day with only minor alterations.
This morning I woke after having a vivid dream. I noticed when thinking started, just after waking. And I know I’m not my thoughts. I’ve had a meditation practice for years and I know that thoughts just arise and how random they are too.

I'm not working today, so I'll continue investigating this and will post again later today.

kind regards,
Clarrie

[Clarrie]

What does the word I actually point to? If you take a finger (literally) and land it on I, where does it land?

Doing the vacuuming. No ‘I’ present that I could identify. Just all the components of that experience. The physical act of pushing the vacuum. The feeling of getting warm and needing to shed a layer of clothes. Seeing the before and after result of the vacuuming whilst doing it. The light coming through the window. Thoughts… about where is the ‘I’. Finishing the vacuuming and sitting down. Reading your post again… I am all that!!! The whole experience. No ‘I‘ having the experience. I am the experience??? Could that be it? Mind starting to overthink it all now……

Cheers, Cx

[Vivien]

Hi Clarrie,

You did a nice investigation. :)

Reading your post again… I am all that!!! The whole experience. No ‘I‘ having the experience. I am the experience??? Could that be it? Mind starting to overthink it all now……

There is experience, yes. But what is making experience into a me/I?
What is stating that “I am experience”?

Is there someone outside of experience who is stating/saying that I = experience?

Mind starting to overthink it all now……

What mind? What is the mind in this very moment as you observe it?

Is there a mind that thinks? How do you know this? How do you know that a mind thinks?

Where is the exact location of this ‘mind’ which is supposed to be the placeholder and origin of thoughts?
Can you find it in experience?

Vivien

[Clarrie]

But what is making experience into a me/I?
What is stating that “I am experience”?
Is there someone outside of experience who is stating/saying that I = experience?[/quote

A thought is stating 'I am'. No one or no thing outside of experience. Just experience happening. No 'I am".

What mind? What is the mind in this very moment as you observe it?

Just an idea...More thoughts?

Is there a mind that thinks? How do you know this? How do you know that a mind thinks?

I can't find a mind, let alone one that thinks. Just the experience of thinking. I keep coming back to 'just experience'.

Cheers, Cx

[Vivien]

Hi Clarrie,

What is the difference between doing and happening?

Is the separate self doing anything in life?
Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?

Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?

What do you do right now for this to be?

Are you doing reading or reading is happening?
Are you doing sitting or sitting is happening?
Are you doing seeing or seeing is happening?

Vivien

[Clarrie]

What is the difference between doing and happening?

'doing' implies that there is a 'doer'. Somebody doing... Active
Whereas 'happening' doesn't imply that there is a 'happener'. Somebody happening....passive

Is the separate self doing anything in life?
Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?

This led me into the realm of 'making choices'. How does that happen? ...Does that happen?...What are choices?
I settled on 'an aspect of just thinking happening'. But feeling that there is more there to investigate.

]Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?

This was fun!!!.. I spent the day at work (busy emergency dept) imagining if everything WAS just happening. And there were definite 'glimpses' that this was so. Was a bit like holding focus in a particular way. Convincing enough to notice a bit of an energetic lift. Definitely will do this again today. It was quite enjoyable.

Lots of thinking about the 'process' in which decision making happens. intuition??? past experience??? where would past experience be stored, so it could be used again? Is this even happening? Is the memory a thing? Doesn't this point to there existing 'time'? What if there is just the experience of memory? There seems to be the experience of 55 years of memory here.
Thoughts make thoughts about thoughts...Not to mention decisions of the heart....blah blah. Not expecting an answer, just describing the mental scenery here at present.

Are you doing reading or reading is happening?
Are you doing sitting or sitting is happening?
Are you doing seeing or seeing is happening?

writing is happening
sitting is happening
seeing is happening
thinking is happening

Cheers,
Cx

[Vivien]

Hi Clarrie,

This was fun!!!.. I spent the day at work (busy emergency dept) imagining if everything WAS just happening.

Yes, that could be fun :) but, why not go a step further, and actually investigate if everything indeed just happening. Not just imagining it, but actually seeing it.

So for today, please put aside imagination, and actually check reality itself. Pay close attention what is going on.

When you lift your hands to do something, check, if it’s done by a me, or it’s just happening on its own?
When eating, check, is there an I doing the eating, or it’s just happening on its own?
When the next piece of food is chosen, is it done by a someone, or it’s just happening?
When you brush your teeth, is it done by a self, or it’s just happening on its own?
When you wash your hands, is there someone making washing hands to happen, or it’s just happens automatically?

When thinking, is it done by a thinker, or thinking is just happening on its own?
What do you do in order to think? Is it your doing? Or it’s just happening?

Lots of thinking about the 'process' in which decision making happens. intuition??? past experience??? where would past experience be stored, so it could be used again? Is this even happening? Is the memory a thing? Doesn't this point to there existing 'time'? What if there is just the experience of memory? There seems to be the experience of 55 years of memory here.

We can look into this later, but let’s focus on just one topic at a time.

Vivien

[Clarrie]

Hi Vivien,

No imagination today, just checking reality....

When you lift your hands to do something, check, if it’s done by a me, or it’s just happening on its own?
When eating, check, is there an I doing the eating, or it’s just happening on its own?
When the next piece of food is chosen, is it done by a someone, or it’s just happening?
When you brush your teeth, is it done by a self, or it’s just happening on its own?
When you wash your hands, is there someone making washing hands to happen, or it’s just happens automatically?

I couldn't find an 'I' in any of these activities. Just thoughts, sensations, sounds, looking. Was happening automatically.
Thinking was sometimes a precursor to doing. Like when washing my hands. But not always. I found my hands doing all manner of things that did not appear to be as a result of associated thinking.

When thinking, is it done by a thinker, or thinking is just happening on its own?
What do you do in order to think? Is it your doing? Or it’s just happening?

Thinking is definitely happening on its own. Absolutely no control over thinking.

Cheers,
Cx

[Vivien]

Hi Clarrie,

Thinking was sometimes a precursor to doing. Like when washing my hands. But not always. I found my hands doing all manner of things that did not appear to be as a result of associated thinking.

So when there are thoughts before the action, then are those thoughts making action to happen?

Here is an exercise for you.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
Is there a ‘I’ controlling which and to raise?
Is there a controller? Where?

How is the decision made?
Is the decision is made by an I/self?
Is there a decision maker? Where?

Repeat this many times before replying.

Vivien

[Clarrie]

Hi Vivien,
As prompted I repeated this exercise many times today.

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

A thought is choosing which hand to raise. No me generating the thought or choosing.

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
Is there a ‘I’ controlling which hand to raise?
Is there a controller? Where?

The hand just seemed to respond to the thought. There wasn't a 'middle man'.It was automatic.
No one making the choice of which one to raise. Just a thought. The thought wasn't asking the hand to move either. The hand moved pretty much at the same time as the thought of it moving.

How is the decision made?
Is the decision is made by an I/self?
Is there a decision maker? Where?

Decision made by a thought. No self/I involved. No decision maker.

Thanks, was a helpful exercise. Nice to not over think.

Cheers,
Cx

[Vivien]

Hi Clarrie,

A thought is choosing which hand to raise. No me generating the thought or choosing.

Are you sure that a thought is choosing which hand to raise?
Is thought an entity which is aware of the hands, and thus can choose which one to raise?

Please don’t just think it through, but actually check in experience.

Does the thought ‘left’ or ‘right’ know about the hands?

Are thoughts actually choosing, or there are only thoughts ABOUT choosing?
Is a thought an actual chooser, or there is only a thought ABOUT choice?

Vivien