Invitation to start here:

[Elizabeth]

Hi Dennis, wonderful! Seeing no ownership, and no do-ership. The dance of interdependence, indeed. Just flows, all together.
It's that simple. And if you look, it's always been there, just overlaid by the illusion of a separate self, thinking itself.
Is it true that awareness of the dance is needed for this dance?
Because we may be overlaying self-awareness, self-consciousness, and a sense of self here, with something that may not exist.
Check it out? Take it for a test drive...like you've been doing :-)
Take the I out of 'I am aware'.
Take aware out also.
Look.
Anything left? Anything need to be added to make it what it is?
Much love, Elizabeth

[DennDJ]

The awareness of the dance is part of the dance (part being not the right word, as in a separate part, I mean it is one with the dance) it is not separate.

there is indeed still a sense of self, but it is not the same as it was . More of a 'I am' sense but not so much the body/mind. Although the mind goes racing again, bringing up doubts 'Is this really it? aren't you imagining this? ' at the same time I can identify those thoughts as just thoughts that appear, to no one.

Still some self-residue left :)
Yet at the same time, 'I' see it clearly.

More looking

[Elizabeth]

Yes, give this a day to unfold a little more, see what arises. Knowing that you know is key.
Shake out a few questions, doubts, and then we shall answer some clarifying questions.
Suggest you journal a bit, leave a few breadcrumbs, it's interesting reading later. Have fun, Dennis!
Smiling here, love, Elizabeth

[DennDJ]

Hi Elizabeth,

Hope you're good! It has been a few days. I've been noticing and noticing and noticing.
There's a clarity about the following:

- thoughts about the 'self' are pointing to nothing. the self as it exists in the thoughts does not exist
- things just happen, the interdependant dance of life, noone is really doing anything as things just happen
- when seeing or hearing (or any other -ing) happens, it happens all in the same space, which is as big/wide as one can se/hear/smell/etc
- there is no need to worry about anything. When thoughts of worry appear, they appear, but there is no need to make a big story about them and really worry. Everything happens exactly as it is supposed to, we're being taken care of, so to speak. This in itself is such a relief.

Yet (here comes the yet!) there is still a 'self' (whatever that is, I do not know) that registers all that happens, that is aware of all of this.

What is that? I feel that is the last piece of the puzzle!
Could you help me out here?

Thanks so much, hope to hear back soon :)

Much love,
Dennis

[Elizabeth]

Hi Dennis,
All good noticing.
The sense of self...as awareness, that is common.
Question remains the same as with all objects, perceptions and mental constructs: Is it possible to remove the claiming "I' and the object or the perception or the object in consciousness remains the same?
A cup, or a MY cup?
Which is more true?
I am awareness.
or
Awareness is.
Which seems less prone to error?
Is it possible that this is simply another "back of mind' labeling? Part of the I-ing mechanism?


So for now, I'd say noticing objects with bare sensate awareness, asking: does awareness really have a location?
Here is an exercise in sensate awareness:
Please close the eyes. Reach out to the screen and lightly feel it. Now the keyboard, the table. Now touch your arm.
Do they feel different?
Let me know what you find. And what it says about awareness.
Much love, and again, good noticing.
Elizabeth

[DennDJ]

hi :)

This really stopped me in my tracks:

I am awareness.
or
Awareness is.
Which seems less prone to error?

So obvious! Awareness IS!

Here is an exercise in sensate awareness:
Please close the eyes. Reach out to the screen and lightly feel it. Now the keyboard, the table. Now touch your arm.
Do they feel different?

Yes, they feel different. And they are all at different locations. Where my hand touches the object, there is the awareness. Awareness is not to be found in a fixed location!

Hahaha I am laughing here. This seems so obvious yet I missed it. Thank you!!! :)

Big hug for you :)

[Elizabeth]

Hi Dennis,
Yes, funny how often our unquestioned assumptions are wrong, isn't it? Always makes me laugh when I find another one lurking, both in "good' thoughts and 'bad' thoughts. Equally confining. Time to blow it up :-)

There is a little more to be found in the touching exercise. Want to try?
-Touch the screen, table, and arm.
-Where is the difference noted? And how?
-Now try exercise again. What is seen about difference?


Let's try the clarifying questions, see what the answers want to be.
1) Is there a you to be found, in any way, shape or form? Where is it not found?

2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works to make a Dennis. .

3) What is liberation?

4) How will you describe this to, say, your parent? who probably worry about a you?

Write as honestly and completely as you can, you can't fail this test, just show up a few lurkers, which we will happily blow up.
Love to a you, Dennis!
Elizabeth

[DennDJ]

The touching exercise:
The difference is noted in some center that can't really be located. How? through the senses, the hand touching the table/screen/arm.
What is seen about difference? I am not really getting what you are aiming for with this question. Obviously the different textures feel different. The difference is noted in this awareness. Then the mind labels it as 'hard' 'smooth' or 'soft'


The clarifying questions:
1) There is no me to be found. There is this body/mind from which' perspective things happen. The center of the story, so to speak. A real me, a separate self, is not to be found. Only in thoughts and appearance.
By appearance I mean; we all grow up believeing we are separated, we are these bodies, and they APPEAR to be separated individuals, because we believe that is so.

2) The self is a set of beliefs, memories and ideas in the mind about the story that is happening. The story is 'seen' from a point of reference which is through the eyes of the body, and so the mind, with its dualistic nature, needs to label this point of reference as 'I' , separate from all that what goes on 'outside'.
In reality, there is no inside or outside. There are these things happening, seeing happens, hearing happens, feeling happens. THINKING happens. but that's NOT a you. But because we are living in a world where apparantly everyone beliefs they are seperate entities this has been a conditioning, almost a brainwashing over the years to make belief that what mind says is truth.
All these people belief they are their mind, or what their mind tells them, but the mind is also just a thing that happens, only a tool (so to speak) for Life to experience itself. I hope this comes out clear, it is very clear in my beliefs. ;-) (yes, beliefs are only beliefs, but once you see, you know - that's what I mean)

It is odd to speak of 'I', of 'other people' but thats just language. For the sake of relative communication.

3) Liberation is the dropping of the belief that one is a separate entity. Seeing and doing serious self enquiry can bring this about quite easily, it requires dedication though. The seeker stops seeking for there is nothing to seek, it is already perfect as it is, the perfect manifestation of Life. No judgements, just being. No worries about personal issues. It is not a big bang like 'i'expected but it is nonetheless a huge revelation and makes this life, this body/mind feel more at peace, and taken care of, always, being where 'I' am supposed to be at all times. Relief.
Also a deep warm feeling of gratitude of BEING. Just the fact that this is, this undeniable existence.

4) I couldnt explain this to my parents. They are so deeply rooted in christianity that it is of no use, and they would only worry so much more.

I would only explain this to people who I feel are interested in topics like these, by probing around a bit at first, and when I see a readiness I will jump in . Probably ask them to locate their self first. From there on, their responses will be the guide of the conversation.

Love,
D

[DennDJ]

What is this thing called belief?
I have been cracking my brain about this..
People believe in the illusion, that is why they are not free. What is it that believes?
The power to believe, is that also only a thought, an appearance? or is that really a quality that this Life/Consciousness has. Because beliefs shape the reality, for a large part.

This is slightly offtopic but I feel this is a good place to ask anyway :)

[DennDJ]

To clarify a bit about what I meant with belief(and intention)

for example: someone has a belief they are going to be a doctor. From there on they are going to the appropriate schools etc until they are a doctor. (all seemingly so, no 'one' really is a doctor, there is just a body doing doctorstuff). This belief shaped the path.

Example 2: someone beliefs their group (A) is better than group B. (religion, racism, etc) their beliefs shape what happens. There comes hate, war, maybe even death, all from such beliefs. Again, the beliefs shape what happens.

Do you get my point? :)

Beliefs are thoughts, but they definately manifest (or help manifest) reality for the one having them. (seemingly so)

Are beliefs only thoughts that come up because of the body being 'programmed' a certain way? Or are beliefs really something (and also intentions, which is kind of the same) as a bridge between the emptiness/unmanifest source and the manifested life?

Just some mindpuzzles that have come up over the past days.

Love,
D

[Elizabeth]

Dennis,
I've been holding off and re-reading your thread, as I have another question to ask you.
You are clearly a vivid, bubbling, active person. If you love music, you can probably access joy and flow and movement.
You replies are pretty darn good :-) but I am going to ask you for more on how you feel.
How does this opening feel, particularly after a day or two to settle? If you could set it to music, how does it sound? If you had to write a poem, what words and images would come out of the pen?
If you weren't careful, what would be said?

Freedom is....what, Dennis?
Are you free?
Love, Elizabeth

[DennDJ]

Welcome back dear guide ;-)

How does this opening feel:
There's peace, a letting go. Not a detachment, but kind of.. Still involved with life, but more like a (as I've seen it mentioned like that before) free fall. Let it happen, theres nothing to do :) Makes boring tasks actually enjoyable, too!

If I could set it to music, well, I actually recently made a piece that has to do with this topic, BEFORE my eyes opened. It was like I had this knowledge already in me, just not aware of it. Forgotten it, I'd say. The main punchline in the track is 'YOU ARE LIFE'

It made me laugh so hard when I realized I made a track about it while 'I' was searching, seeking, for that what was already there, and I subconsciously already knew it! :D

"If I weren't careful, what would be said?" I dont get this one.. Don't know what to answer to this one except that the character Dennis can appear to be careful or not. Is that what you mean? :)

Freedom is: seeing that there is no self, flowing freely , no worries (even though they may arise) no personal drama, being able to choose to be involved in the story or just enjoy it as it is (preferring the latter)

Am I free? There is certainly a feeling of freedom. No I to be free :) But I would communicate: Yes I am free.

[Elizabeth]

Thank you, that is what I was looking for :-) A sense of how it is...
Yes, the replies were a bit careful, and while I appreciate precision, I look for the genuine response of the whole organism to a shift.

Your question:
Belief, is it a thought ABOUT a thought?
"I believe this THOUGHT ABOUT something to be true. "

And just to be really clear, can you go through the questions as answered and take out every single thing that is believed, leaving only what can be experienced, by Dennis, when he looks.
HINT: Truth is a hell of an editor.
Love to you, Elziabeth

[DennDJ]

There are some questions arising. The reason why, is because there has hardly been a big shift, more of a recognition. The question 'is this really it?' keeps popping up. This probably has to do with expectations I initially had, especially in regard to that 'spiritual' experience I had almost a year ago.

Although there's very clearly NOT a seperate me, the illusion is seen through by .. ?? The seeing through of the illusion takes place in that same place where everything happens, that space, that capacity. Is that the true nature of what 'I' am? That open space in which everything arises and falls back in again?

That's the final question, basically.

Why I asked about beliefs, and I understand your answer, is because (and this is not clear yet) someone has beliefs (thoughts) and ACTS accordingly (this goes all automatically). But beliefs are able to be changed. Someone can even say to themselves "I do not believe this any longer" and from there on their life takes different shape. This SEEMS as if beliefs and intention do have some shaping/manifesting power in the world.
Same thing: one can reflect on situations, and say, for example "I do not want this any more, so I do not wish to speak to this person any more" and from there on that part of the story changes.

Am I making sense, do you get my point? :-) Feeling there's either something missing that I am not seeing, or perhaps there is something to it..



Going through the questions once again taking out every thing that is believed, leaving only direct experience:
1) Is there a you to be found, in any way, shape or form? Where is it not found?
No there is no me to be found. Only this body and mind from whose perspective things are appearing to be observed, leaving the idea that that's a separate me (and because of conditioning over the years), until the illusion is seen through.
The me is only found in thoughts, as the reference point around which the story revolves. But it's only that, a reference point in thought to make sense of what's going on, and it isn't even needed.


2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works to make a Dennis. .
Like stated in the previous answer, it is used by the mind as a reference point to relate to and make sense of the things that happen, it is formed by conditioning, for a big part because people don't know any better and raise their children that way (or relate to their friends that way, etc) the body gets a label, a name, and the mind makes that label its identity, thinking it IS that named body.


3) What is liberation?
It is seeing through that illusion. The illusion of the separate self. When really looking at what we've believed to be true all those years without questioning, one can find out that truth. By investigating one finds there is no 'self', only happening. Happening, constant change, flowing, and this body/mind is interwoven with that. All is connected and the idea that one has control, or needs to do things, is seen through as part of that same illusion.


4) How will you describe this to, say, your parent? who probably worry about a you?
I won't desciribe this to anyone unless I sense an interest in the topic. I know from experience that the people closest to me are not interested in changing their beliefs, they are fine with them as they are. And that is fine, too.

Love,
Dennis
:)

[DennDJ]

What is it, that 'decided' for Dennis to come here and to want to be liberated? Is it Life itself breaking the illusion?

Just something that popped up just now..