Time to Jump!

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)


Great to read the report!


Do you still feel you are struggling in a search for truth, or can you confidently
say that you have seen through the illusion of permanent, concrete, separate entity
called "self"?


If you have seen through the illusion,
are you using a lot of effort to be able to see it in your daily life?
Or is it becoming more like a natural state of being?


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

Thank you so much for this help!!
It is a once in a life time opportunity.
And I truly appreciate it.

Sorry for the long post, but I felt that in this specific case it is important to express as much as possible of what is happening so you can use your experience to help me relate to it.

Do you still feel you are struggling in a search for truth, or can you confidently 
say that you have seen through the illusion of permanent, concrete, separate entity 
called "self"?

At the moment I am not struggling in a search for truth. 
I can confidently and honestly say that I saw through the illusion at least as far as I can understand and experience it so far.
I don't exclude the possibility that I might be wrong, but in the experience now, there is no ambiguity. 

If you have seen through the illusion, 
are you using a lot of effort to be able to see it in your daily life?
Or is it becoming more like a natural state of being?  

I can only relate to the last two days so far.
Generally speaking, it felt like a natural state of being but with constant automatic/semi-automatic corrections.
Meaning that there was, for example 10 min. of a natural flow, then came self related thoughts for 2 minutes, so the illusion was back there.
Then, there was the noticing, that these thoughts were not related to a concrete thing (I actually felt like calling them "rubbish" thoughts).
Then, the correction happened automatically and there was the natural flow again.
There was no effort/hardly any effort involved in this.

Then, there were moments, especially yesterday, that there was suddenly a bombarding of thoughts in high speed which included losing sight for comparatively longer period of what is concrete vs. what is not (self).
Some of these thoughts were concerns.
For example:
*This seeing follows an intense period, were all available energy was dedicated to the inquiry.
Will this seeing remain for long/ forever without this intensity? Especially periods when most energy will be needed for other issues?
*It is such a sudden and sharp and radical change. Won't I, sooner or later, be thrown just as radically back to were I have been most of my life?
*How is it possible that I could see so fast, what so many other serious searchers were looking for, for decades without success? Am I not falling to some kind of delusion etc?
*Can it be that simple? 
*Impostor syndrome 

But today, (so far!) was completely free from these concerns.
There was simply no room for them in the strong momentum of that natural state/flow.
And like I said it mostly went like this:  flow for longer period - losing sight for a shorter period - correction - flow for longer period, and so on...

Thank you very much!!
Riverwind

[Bananafish]

Thank you, Riverwind. :)


Great that you are feeling the changes occurring!


Do you have anything you want to further inquire,
or would you like to proceed to a set of final questions to be asked
at the end of the inquiry?


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananfish,

Do you have anything you want to further inquire,
or would you like to proceed to a set of final questions to be asked
at the end of the inquiry?

Today was very frustrating,
There was a feeling of "loosing" yesterday's clarity.
There was a sense of "lack" but no "fire" to push to inquire for resolving that.
Still there was some struggle to regain clarity by using the same inquiries...
..which brought only to rare moments of seeing the non-actuality of the self.


That being said, I don't see what else there is for me to inquire that I haven't already.
Do you have any suggestions/questions/topic for inquiry, that you think would be beneficial for me at this point?
Otherwise, we can wait for tomorrow's report (or longer if needed) before deciding if to proceed to the set of final questions.

Thank you very much!!
Riverwind

[Bananafish]

HI Riverwind. :)

Code: Select all

There was a sense of "lack" but no "fire" to push to inquire for resolving that. Still there was some struggle to regain clarity by using the same inquiries... ..which brought only to rare moments of seeing the non-actuality of the self.

Ok, let's inquire to see whether what you call "clarity" can be
permanent. And if that permanency you may wish is really clarity at all.


First, what makes you think that you have to be "seeing the non-actuality of the self" all the time?
And also, what is "clarity" which you call so?


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

Maybe it is not that much of a big deal, but I prefer not to leave open ends whenever possible.

what makes you think that you have to be "seeing the non-actuality of the self" all the time?

I don't think I have to see it all the time. 
But, the experience yesterday, was of long periods in which I did not see it.
And because this is all quite new it made me worried that maybe what I saw/seen through, was not really "it".

I think that your reply helped already.
It took of some pressure I was, unnecessarily putting myself into. 
This wish to see it or think about "it" constantly came out of fear that I am not really "there" and that if I let go, "it" will disappear.

There might still be some of this fear.
Should I inquire into this, somehow, or just let resolve itself?

what is "clarity" which you call so?

Right now, when writing this there is clarity.
Thoughts are not running is a frenzy.
There is a strong sense of things/life just happening in a natural dynamic way.
There is no questioning or searching for truth because it is felt clearly without trying anything.
No doubts about if I am "doing it right" or "seeing it right".Etc.

Yesterday, as you have read, was quite the opposite.

Thank you very much!!
Riverwind

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)

There might still be some of this fear.
Should I inquire into this, somehow, or just let resolve itself?

Yes! Could you write more about that fear, so that we could inquire into it?



Warm wishes,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

Could you write more about that fear, so that we could inquire into it?

Today I was not bothered about this (or any) fear.
All went well. Things were flowing and when there was a need, there was seeing or remembering and back to flow.
I spent no more than 5 minutes doing "formal" inquiry, as I still find it useful.


Here is what bothered me yesterday and that I thought might still be "lurking" in the background.

In one word - doubts

One fear is that I might be wrong somehow about really seeing through the illusion, and that because I am convinced that I am seeing it right, I write to you in a way that convinces you too that I am seeing right... 
Like this we could reach the end of the inquiry, both of us satisfied with the results......only  that later, I will find out that what I saw was not really it or not the whole picture.

There is also the fear of letting go of effort:
Seeing happened as a result of focused inquiry with a lot of energy being put into it.
There is the fear that this seeing/clarity, is somehow depending on this investment of intention and energy.
That the moment I stop putting energy/attention into it, a whole lifetime of thought habits that is supported by the fact that every other person I meet see it that way, will make me drift back to the old belief.

Now, I understand that it doesn't work like that and that when you really see clearly that something doesn't exist you will never believe in it again, but then the question is: Did what I see is really what I was supposed to see?

Now, if I ask to whom these doubts occur, poof they become just thoughts that cannot threaten what is.
So is it worth it, to investigate into them at all?

Thank you very much!
Riverwind

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)

Now, if I ask to whom these doubts occur, poof they become just thoughts that cannot threaten what is.
So is it worth it, to investigate into them at all?

Yes, it's worth investigating. Asking that question can sometimes be a way to escape from
the fact that there are doubts. And these doubts may be waiting to be investigated.

One fear is that I might be wrong somehow about really seeing through the illusion

What makes you doubt this, and how does it feel to do so?

There is the fear that this seeing/clarity, is somehow depending on this investment of intention and energy.

Why don't you try "stopping putting energy/attention into it"?
I would really recommend that you try doing so and see what happens.



Warm regards,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananfish,

warning: a wall of words : - )
I apologize for the length of this post.

What makes you doubt this, and how does it feel to do so?

Before you read on, please note that the following does not reflect of my current view and experience.
It's on the level of thought, not so much of direct experience so if this does not go well or simply does not help with this inquiry, please just ignore the whole thing or most of it!
(You could also just put it under overthinking and we can move on with the inquiry).

 I also express these doubts in a very direct way but I do not mean any disrespect. 
I appreciate and thankful and feel that I am in the right place in the right time.

Now lets get onto to it: 
One: Is a doubt if I am seeing what I am supposed to be seeing.something like:Do I see what you or Ilona or Gautama Buddha, for that matter, saw? 
Each one is different, and for another person the same words can mean a different experience.
By reading my description we could say: yes, this sounds right. But maybe if you were able to look through my eyes you would say : Oh no, this guy believes he is there but in fact is stuck on a certain trap/delusion.

Two: OK this one is actually a nice problem to have:
You know the phrase "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is"?
The way that it works the last few days is like a miracle. 
I simply glide through things that before would keep me worried or push me to different forms of escapism.
There are still "inner struggles" but because they are not "personal" they pass quickly.
It's all good, but I am just used that if something is that good, there must be a catch somewhere.

Third, how do I know that this in not just another belief?
True, at the moment, I cannot even see how it is possible that there is a separate concrete entity that I can call myself. 
I can see how, sometimes it is felt like there is, but even a brief look shows that it to be fake.
But, this seeing happened in the context of looking in a specific way under specific guidelines (which I appreciate a lot!). How do I know that seeing things in this way and this context haven't created a belief in no self?

Forth: This one has haunted me in the past whenever I tried to find truth via direct experience:
Is direct experience/seeing is an evidence of what is true?! 
After all, We understand so many things by inference, that direct seeing does not tell us.
Sometimes direct evidence can be an optical illusion.
And there are countless examples that show that often we are only able to notice what we are conditioned to see.
Couldn't observing in this specific way be just another form of conditioning to see things through specific "glasses"? 
(I cannot see how this could be the case but theoretically, if I am now "conditioned" to see only in a certain way, then what I see does not count as evidence).

Now, to be clear, for me, all the evidence on the intellectual level on the level of common sense (and now) on the experiential level point to the fact that there is no concrete self separated from everything else.
But I am not well educated in areas like philosophy and science, so for "little me" to trust my judgment against that of a huge part of humanity with it's philosophers scientists and just many people who are smarter than me etc., can be hard sometimes.

Why don't you try "stopping putting energy/attention into it"?
I would really recommend that you try doing so and see what happens.

Today I gave it a try.
At first there was some "panic".
It is something that I could never do in the past; just let things be without striving or struggling towards a goal.
Trying to do so now brought up some hard moments to go through with the temptation to run away from it by finding another reason/excuse to struggle.
Then, after a while, it all relaxed and I kind of gotten used to this way of being.
So now, I was struggling only with the things that needed struggling and not for the sake of escaping something.
After that all, went well by itself. No searching or looking just seeing and flowing.
A much more satisfying and effective way of being.

Thank you very much!!
Riverwind
 

[Riverwind]

Sorry, I forgot the part about

how does it feel to do so?

On the experiential level, it does not interfere with the good feeling about the way things are going in the last few days.
At the moment these doubts are just visitors that don't stay enough to cause any issues.

Thank you very much!!
Riverwind

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)

It's very important to solve things in intellectual level, also.
Doubt of any kind will get in the way; you don't have to think that
asking intellectual questions is wrong or useless. :)

Do I see what you or Ilona or Gautama Buddha, for that matter, saw?

What makes you want to be the same as someone else?
The most important thing is for you to be and know that you are liberated,
without any comparison with other people, guru, teacher, or whatever.

Are you free now? Do you feel liberated? That is the question.

It's all good, but I am just used that if something is that good, there must be a catch somewhere.

Here's another belief to have a look at. :)
What if the above thought is a sheer lie? Could you come up with reasons to
say that it's a lie?

How do I know that seeing things in this way and this context haven't created a belief in no self?

Good that you came across this question; all experiences are memories, aren't they?
It doesn't matter whether it is a delusory or an authentic experience of "no self" (if any!).

All these experiences, memories, when treated to be something to be held,
something good or bad, something to be used as criteria, can be a belief.

That's why we emphasize observing what is here and now in a fresh way.


Are you treating the idea of no-self in ways mentioned above?

Is direct experience/seeing is an evidence of what is true?!

If you try to see something in a specific way, all of these are conditioned.
If you make "direct experience" an idea or ideology, that's conditioning.


What we are doing here is just to observe; of course, that isn't the kindest instruction
to be told, and it is often misinterpreted. So, some instructions come in between, which
may not be too harmful. Look at this, look at that ... and so on. All these too, if
you try to keep and use them, will be a fetter for you.

After that all, went well by itself. No searching or looking just seeing and flowing.
A much more satisfying and effective way of being.

Great! Please keep reporting. :)


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

Today, I kept with the instructions of: Why don't you try "stopping putting energy/attention into it"?  

Very interesting. 
Doing so, deprived me from my main excuse for escaping the confrontation with the unknown.
I saw that what happened was that an uncomfortable feeling arise which caused a stimulus to do something in order to avoid/escape it.
This avoiding could be done by checking for new messages on WhatsApp OR it could be by trying "do an observation".

By not taking the bait to do something, and just staying with this uncomfortable feeling, some things came up.
First of all, this was a VERY uncomfortable feeling.
A feeling of emptiness/nothingness/meaningless existence etc.  
I could see why I was trying to avoid it in the past.
But, I stayed with it anyway. And this feeling was coming and going throughout the day.

Then there was an "inner dialogue that sounded like this:
"I was trying before this approach of just letting things be as they are. But I didn't have enough faith to carry me through the hard moments so I ended up frustrated and looking for a more "active" approach.
But this time I have the support of a guide so maybe it can work".

Then, later, there were moments when spontaneously I started noticing: "Hey, there is no separate self here, things are just happening. 
For example, during a conversation with a family member, I thought:  "this conversation I right now, it does not feel like I was existing in this memory, and yet, there is a memory of things said "by me" and so on.
It was a very clear feeling/seeing.

I think I would be interested in giving this "stopping putting energy/attention into it" another go tomorrow...

Are you free now? Do you feel liberated?

It really depends when you ask me. If you would asked me this morning I would probably say no.
Other moments I would say maybe and others I would say that I believe so.

And what does it mean liberated?! (Also, can one be partly liberated?)
Does it means liberated from the belief/or the experience of being a concrete separate entity?
If so, on the experiential level there are more and more glimpses into a feeling that this is the way things are. 
The belief part is more tricky, though.
Belief is a mental thing/thought, no? 
So when I ask myself this question, I have to turn to memory and ideas for an answer.
And here it becomes confusing.
Like the intellect did not catch up with the experience.

Then, there is the aspect of the way today, a lot of this felt very uncomfortable or even unpleasant.
The word liberation in general has for me a connotation of a positive or at least a neutral experience.
I understand intellectually that it is not about this or that experience, but still there is this thought that it cannot be that liberation means living a big chunk of the day in this feeling of "emptiness/nothingness/meaningless existence etc". 
 

What we are doing here is just to observe; of course, that isn't the kindest instruction
to be told, and it is often misinterpreted. So, some instructions come in between, which
may not be too harmful. Look at this, look at that ... and so on. All these too, if
you try to keep and use them, will be a fetter for you.

When you were suggesting to try "stopping putting energy/attention into it",is this actually, on a practical level, the same as "just to observe" without the "instructions that come in between" which are about observing specific objects? 

Thank you very much!
Riverwind

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)

there were moments when spontaneously I started noticing:
"Hey, there is no separate self here, things are just happening.

This is exactly where it becomes tricky.
This "no-self" thing starts to be used to suppress the feelings that awaits for
being felt.

And what does it mean liberated?!

I'm pretty literal in my questioning; whatever the reasoning behind
what liberation is, I'm asking whether you feel liberated or not.

So, again, my question is "are you feeling liberated? Yes or no?"

When you were suggesting to try "stopping putting energy/attention into it",is this actually, on a practical level, the same as "just to observe" without the "instructions that come in between" which are about observing specific objects?

I'm suggesting that you stop it, nothing more. It seems like you tend to think that there are
some hidden intention in my suggestions, but there are none. Please take the advice
literally.



Best wishes,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

This "no-self" thing starts to be used to suppress the feelings that awaits for
being felt. 

Well, I would say that there was no suppressing today.
I was much more annoyed, edgy, disoriented, tired, frustrated, nervous etc, that anything I can remember in years.
But thank you very much for the warning. Just in time.

"are you feeling liberated? Yes or no?"

Yes.

Please take the advice
literally. 

I will, thank you.


Thank you very much!!
Riverwind