Helen Legg. Knock knock... Who’s there?

[Legg]

Let's have a look at emotions. Do the inquiry only if there is actually an emotion there and not out of memories. Maybe you can generate an emotion. If there is one, for example fear or sadness or whatever, have a closer look at it.
Where and how in the body does it show up? What of it can be felt, and what of it is just thought-content? Let the emotion be there, invite it, look at it with curiosity...

Hi Barb,
I thought I’d start with this as I realise I had missed it and often my emotions can get me a bit bogged down. Like I have been a bit blocked to doing the work here, it like an unseen resistance going on, weird because I do want to do it!
Sometimes where I am living with a disability it is difficult for me to know whether or not I am genuinely fatigued or if I am emotionally overwhelmed, by emotionally overwhelmed I mean like emotionally stuck or painfully numb. The two seem to be a bit intermeshed in what I experience.
Anyway this continuing covid lockdown is a bit unpleasant as I am still not able to leave the house. Most of the people in the UK are allowed out now but those with certain underlying conditions have to stay in still so I am definitely a bit fed up and lonely ☹️
Just feels unnatural to spend weeks by myself.

Anyway back to the enquiry - thank you

So I have fear going on and sadness, it’s easy to jump to thought away from the sensations here to perpetuate the feelings.
Seems like if I am in direct experience with the feelings then there are just random sensations that may equate to sadness or fear but the sensations themselves are actually quite faceless and almost indescribable and then the sensations I have labelled as emotions go to nothing or lessen.
Emotions (how I currently understand it) from this enquiry stem from thoughts. Like the emotions need the framework of some thoughts as a reference point to be able to label them emotions. As without the labelling there would just be some vague sensations of more or less intensity.

Look at breathing: Is there a breather, or just breathing happening?
Look at digestion: Is there a captain who controls it? Or is it just a happening?
While walking: Is there a controller who says how to do it, when which muscle to move? Or does walking just happen?
And what about all the other million processes that take place in the body every minute? Isn't that an absolutely mindblowing mystery?
Look at the wind: Is there someone who controls the wind, who says the wind when to blow? Where do the wind end and the blowing begin? Is there a wind at all, or just blowing happening?

Go ahead to observe movements, actions, apparent choices in your daily life, look if you can find someone who controls it. Is there a captain, a separate entity? Or just happenings?

Love how it’s written here ‘Is there wind at all, or just blowing’
Yes just blowing..
Here I can only find happenings with some interjecting random thoughts that I have previously misread as a controller/decider/emoter

Many thanks 😊
Helen.

[barb]

I thought I’d start with this as I realise I had missed it and often my emotions can get me a bit bogged down. Like I have been a bit blocked to doing the work here, it like an unseen resistance going on, weird because I do want to do it!
Sometimes where I am living with a disability it is difficult for me to know whether or not I am genuinely fatigued or if I am emotionally overwhelmed, by emotionally overwhelmed I mean like emotionally stuck or painfully numb. The two seem to be a bit intermeshed in what I experience.
Anyway this continuing covid lockdown is a bit unpleasant as I am still not able to leave the house. Most of the people in the UK are allowed out now but those with certain underlying conditions have to stay in still so I am definitely a bit fed up and lonely ☹️
Just feels unnatural to spend weeks by myself.

Yes, it is certainly a big challenge, but also a good opportunity :)

Try to take it as easy as possible, be gentle to yourself...Often it is a good sign if there is resistance, that shows us that we're on the right track :)

No matter which emotion pops up, resistance/fear/sadness: Look at it, observe it... Don't engage in the thought story and let the resistance/fear/sadness be here, give it room, give it a hug...

Not for the purpose that it should vanish, more like a loving look at unloved children who have been locked away for a long time because you just didn't want them... Look at them as if they have permission to stay forever...See them as your friends who wants you to protect.

Say thank you and ask the emotion what it is that it wants to protect... Listen silently if an answer shows up... And then try to look behind the emotion... Is there anything?

Take your time with this contemplation...

Anyway back to the enquiry - thank you

Emotions (how I currently understand it) from this enquiry stem from thoughts. Like the emotions need the framework of some thoughts as a reference point to be able to label them emotions. As without the labelling there would just be some vague sensations of more or less intensity.

Very good insights... We will have a deeper look at this soon, but I don't want to give you to much questions at once... :)

Here I can only find happenings with some interjecting random thoughts that I have previously misread as a controller/decider/emoter

Yes, it's all just a happening :)

[Legg]

Hi Barb,

Say thank you and ask the emotion what it is that it wants to protect... Listen silently if an answer shows up... And then try to look behind the emotion... Is there anything?

These feelings have been protecting my life and the feelings have also offered me company when I am alone. I have lived a lot of my life alone (for various reasons) and my emotional landscape has backed up a sense of ‘me’ existing. A sort of duality in my own experience of myself.
The feelings have allowed me to process and understand (in a limited way) some historical trauma.
But I am not living in that threat now, other than the COVID situation.
But I am at home through this and will continue to be at home for a while yet as I have underlying health problems. So actually I am safe - depending upon me staying in. The outside is some sort of a story.
Inside my home, in direct experience I have this heaviness in my chest and some tightness in my throat and pressure behind my eyes. All of these sensations I have given the label of ‘this is my sadness’ or what ever I label it to be at the time, or if I could so something else (like go out) then I wouldn’t have the sensation I label as sadness.
The labelling perpetuating the sensations I call emotions.
I used to look to my past history of ‘hurts’ to try and find the hurt that triggered this hurt in the now. Thankfully, I have somewhat stopped doing this, as it only made me even more miserable!
So just being in the now welcoming these previously unwanted sensations is ok, it’s as though they have been seeking some acknowledgement (without making some romanticised story out of it).

So I do all this other stuff, so I don’t have to feel these basic sensations. The sensations aren’t too awful. Aren’t more than I am able to bear.

The sensations I label as emotions somehow seem ‘extra’ or something additional.
I guess they have been a mechanism of survival and processing the senses to make sense of the world. Like some internal feedback of like and dislike.

Underneath the sensations I label as emotions is just a very refined sense of ease and ok ness. There can be a sense of ease, even with these at times, intense sensations.

So the emotions don’t seem to be protecting anything other than nothing.
I wonder if this nothing has been perceived as to big or overwhelming which is why I have been all ready to dress it up all along.

Many thanks
Helen.

[barb]

So the emotions don’t seem to be protecting anything other than nothing.

Good insights with the emotions... How are you with this? Are you able to look and bath in this "nothingness"?

I wonder if this nothing has been perceived as to big or overwhelming which is why I have been all ready to dress it up all along.

Maybe, maybe not... Who knows... it's just another thought story ;)


Look a little further:

If there is an emotion recognized (fear, sadness, anger, joy... whatever) what is it made of?
Is there a bodily sensation + the label of thought? Is there sometimes first a thought and then a sensation in the body and sometimes the other way around?
Is there sometimes just a thought which claims to be an emotion (thought in disguise...;))?
Do different emotions sometimes feel the same in the body? For example, you can also specifically look for tensions in the body and find out which emotion-label could cause this sensation...

Do this every time when it comes to mind, be curious like a child... :)

[Legg]

Hi Barb!
So I have been reflecting upon these questions for the past few days.
And today something has shifted.
It like my sensory experience/s has got loud or vivid. It’s very pleasant but not overwhelming. Like there’s a bit more freedom or a bit more life. It was unexpected, definitely not a nothing but an everything happening.
Almost like shifting on ice or falling through space.

I’ll try and answer the questions..

If there is an emotion recognized (fear, sadness, anger, joy... whatever) what is it made of?

There is a cognitive process that labels the sensations, like thinking or even something more subtle but it’s definitely a mental construct. The sensations that happen are just like weird buzzing or bubbling or something like a sense of pressure or restriction, very difficult to pin down. Changing. Sometimes quite intense and other times just a whisper of a sensation.

Is there a bodily sensation + the label of thought? Is there sometimes first a thought and then a sensation in the body and sometimes the other way around?

I found it to be either way round. Like if I was experiencing something bodily then I would search for a label for the sensations. Sometimes there would be thoughts or mental occurrences that would seemingly influence the interpretations of the raw data sensations.

Is there sometimes just a thought which claims to be an emotion (thought in disguise...;))?

Yes I would say this does occur and I haven’t noticed it before.
It’s helped me to see my ‘sad’ perspective. Like a mental persistence of sadness. I live in a beautiful area and I have been looking at it through sadness. But more of a mental sadness. There have been physical constrictions that have perpetuated these thoughts. But now I am able to see that a bit more clearly. And see the simple sadness that has been obscuring something that is beautiful.

[/quote] different emotions sometimes feel the same in the body? For example, you can also specifically look for tensions in the body and find out which emotion-label could cause this sensation...

Yes, the sensations in the body are actually quite limited when just experienced without the mental constructions. Like fear and excitement have a similar buzz for example. The raw data is just that.

🌈⛅️🌧❄️🌬⛈☀️🌥🌨 🌸❤️Many thanks,
Helen.

[barb]

.

Great job :)

So I have been reflecting upon these questions for the past few days.
And today something has shifted.
It like my sensory experience/s has got loud or vivid. It’s very pleasant but not overwhelming. Like there’s a bit more freedom or a bit more life. It was unexpected, definitely not a nothing but an everything happening.
Almost like shifting on ice or falling through space.

Wow, sounds really good :)

If there is an emotion recognized (fear, sadness, anger, joy... whatever) what is it made of?

There is a cognitive process that labels the sensations, like thinking or even something more subtle but it’s definitely a mental construct. The sensations that happen are just like weird buzzing or bubbling or something like a sense of pressure or restriction, very difficult to pin down. Changing. Sometimes quite intense and other times just a whisper of a sensation.

Yes :)

Is there a bodily sensation + the label of thought? Is there sometimes first a thought and then a sensation in the body and sometimes the other way around?

I found it to be either way round. Like if I was experiencing something bodily then I would search for a label for the sensations. Sometimes there would be thoughts or mental occurrences that would seemingly influence the interpretations of the raw data sensations.

Yes, and isn't it easier to handle emotions with this in mind?

Is there sometimes just a thought which claims to be an emotion (thought in disguise...;))?

Yes I would say this does occur and I haven’t noticed it before.
It’s helped me to see my ‘sad’ perspective. Like a mental persistence of sadness. I live in a beautiful area and I have been looking at it through sadness. But more of a mental sadness. There have been physical constrictions that have perpetuated these thoughts. But now I am able to see that a bit more clearly. And see the simple sadness that has been obscuring something that is beautiful.

Wonderful :)

different emotions sometimes feel the same in the body? For example, you can also specifically look for tensions in the body and find out which emotion-label could cause this sensation...

Yes, the sensations in the body are actually quite limited when just experienced without the mental constructions. Like fear and excitement have a similar buzz for example. The raw data is just that.

Very, very good :)


Let's have a gentle and friendly look at the body experience


Sit or lie down for about 15 minutes with eyes closed, breathing calmly and slowly, relax as good as possible.
Pay attention only to the pure sensations without relying on thoughts or mental images.

Can you tell how big the body is?
Does the body have a weight or circumference?

Does the body have a shape or form in the current experience?
Is there a border between the body and the clothes?
Is there a border between the body and the surface?

Just with feeling: do you know how many toes there are, does the feeling know anything about toes, or is it just a sensation?

Does the body have a name?

Is there an inside or outside? If there is an inside - inside of what?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?


Does the body perceive or is the body perceived?
Does awareness live in a particular location?
Is there something missing when the body is experienced in this way?

Look closely, take your time, don't hurry. You can look up several times during the day while doing other things (e.g. washing your hands, showering, taking a short break from work, walking, etc.) ...

Lots of love :)

[Legg]

Hi Barb,
I am still reflecting on this....
Will update soon.
Many thanks.
Helen.

[barb]

Ok, thanks :)

[Legg]

Hello again Barb 😊

Can you tell how big the body is?
Does the body have a weight or circumference?

Does the body have a shape or form in the current experience?
Is there a border between the body and the clothes?
Is there a border between the body and the surface?

While doing the exercise on paying attention to sensations without relying on thoughts or mental images I noticed that the body does not seem to have a size or circumference just variable sensations. I cannot perceive any discernible edges or definitions at all. Even things like ‘pressure’ are a construct seen in this way.

The body has no shape or form in the pure sensations experience and there are no borders to be found between body and clothes , body and surface or inner and outer.
Even the idea of ‘body’ seems a bit strange as it’s just sensations without edges.
Sort of inside and outside just being a continuum or oneness of happenings.

Just with feeling: do you know how many toes there are, does the feeling know anything about toes, or is it just a sensation?

Felt sensations alone do not offer up how many toes there are, so the sensations knows nothing about the concept of toes, there seems to be only sensations.

Does the body have a name?

The body does not have a name.

Is there an inside or outside? If there is an inside - inside of what?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

I think I answered this earlier...

Does the body perceive or is the body perceived?
Does awareness live in a particular location?
Is there something missing when the body is experienced in this way?

Now this question has been quite a lot!!!!

It does seem like the body is perceiving directly, though not of itself as a body - as actually I can only find sensations.
Upon initial investigations it did seem like the body is perceived and yet I cannot find a perceiver only sensations so I cannot say the body is perceived.

Awareness does not live in a particular location.
In this context I am not sure what is meant by awareness? There does seem to be some innate knowingness that sensations are happening. So are knowingness and awareness the same thing? I am guessIng they are, and yet I cannot find awareness/knowingness either other that sensations IS/ARE awareness.

So the thing that’s missing is me. There is no me-ing when the body is perceived in this way. 💖

Many thanks 🙏
Helen x

[barb]

Good job with the experiment :)

There is no me-ing when the body is perceived in this way.

Is there ever a "me", a separation? Can you ever find such a thing?

Try it with sound:

Pause for two minutes and listen attentively to all the sounds that can be heard at the moment.
Is there a hearer, separated from hearing, and what is heard?
Where does listening happen?
Watch out for distant sounds.
Where is the listener now?
Find out with closed eyes, if there is a border between here and there. Is it possible to define it?
Is there a separate entity "I" which is listening or is there just simply listening happening?

Be curious and have fun with this experiment :)

[Legg]

Is there ever a "me", a separation? Can you ever find such a thing?

Thanks Barb, I am enquiring some more 🙂

I have taken my time processing this, as personally, I have a lot of reactivity to sound, mainly as an emotional reaction. There can be lots of me-ing around the noise eg, too loud or distracting, or disturbing me from my sleeping, but linguistically I can see that there is no sleep that is mine, there is only sleep!

Although when doing the exercises not much emotional reactivity was coming up.

This is an exercise which I hope to do a bit more of in my life as it’s really beneficial.

Is there a hearer, separated from hearing, and what is heard?
Where does listening happen?
Watch out for distant sounds.
Where is the listener now?
Find out with closed eyes, if there is a border between here and there. Is it possible to define it?
Is there a separate entity "I" which is listening or is there just simply listening happening?

Listening seems to happen in/from nowhere but also subtly around the concept of an ear, for example the sound does seem to be heard in my toes.

It’s like within the soundscape the near and far sounds are not really distinguishable, the discernment of the sounds into near and far is an add on.

Although sound does seem more external (this surprised me) as my I thinker had somewhat internalised the process. But further looking With sounds I cannot find a border of sound either being inside or or outside.
There are no sides 😂 to sounds. I cannot find any boundaries in hearing sounds.

Sound sensations do seem to have beginnings and ends which comes from nowhere and finishes nowhere.
Within sound I cannot find a self listening to the sounds the sounds are just sounds happening.

There is a knowing/awareness that seems not separate from the sounds.Yet I cannot find the knowing awareness it just is with the sound. Yet there is know I in awareness.
It seems like awareness is the sensations...
Best wishes,
Helen.

[barb]

I have taken my time processing this, as personally, I have a lot of reactivity to sound, mainly as an emotional reaction. There can be lots of me-ing around the noise

How does this me-ing look like? Or is „me-ing“ just an interpretation from thought, and only reacting happening?

This is an exercise which I hope to do a bit more of in my life as it’s really beneficial.

Great idea, it is generally very good to establish a looking habit to learn to hold the focus... :)

Listening seems to happen in/from nowhere but also subtly around the concept of an ear,

Yes... If you take a closer look can you find an ear then? Or is just hearing and maybe sensing going on?

It’s like within the soundscape the near and far sounds are not really distinguishable, the discernment of the sounds into near and far is an add on.

Yes :)

There is a knowing/awareness that seems not separate from the sounds.Yet I cannot find the knowing awareness it just is with the sound. It seems like awareness is the sensations...

Yes absolutely, very good seen! Could there ever be experiencing without awareness? Have you ever perceived the absence of experience?

Let's change the therm „awareness“ into „perceiving“:

Is there a separation between perceiver – perceiving – perceived? Or is always just perceiving going on? Is it possible to find an entity called „I“ in perceiving?

Yet there is know I in awareness.

I guess you've ment there is „no“ I in awareness, right?

Lots of love
Barb

[Legg]

How does this me-ing look like? Or is „me-ing“ just an interpretation from thought, and only reacting happening?

The me-img seems just an interpretation from thought and feelings. But it’s quite quick to happen.
I have been just with sounds happening for the past week to really try and bee with just the happenings of sound without my reactions and interpretations.

There is a knowing/awareness that seems not separate from the sounds.Yet I cannot find the knowing awareness it just is with the sound. It seems like awareness is the sensations...
Yes absolutely, very good seen! Could there ever be experiencing without awareness? Have you ever perceived the absence of experience?

Logically you can’t really perceive the absence of experience as perception is there.
As an experiment... no I cannot perciveive the absence of experience.
The only absence of experience I know of through not being able to perceive it is in deep dreamless sleep, anaesthetics and when I have fainted.
Sometimes there is sort of zoning out which seems not so perceptive, like a different level consciousness (I know your likely not to like this consciousness word! 😄) but even when I am zoned out I am zoned into something.

Let's change the therm „awareness“ into „perceiving“:

My I-ing had a lot to say about this!!!!
Like why did LU chose the word perceiving over awareness? Personally I would have gone for awareness over perceiving only because awareness seems much more neutral and doesn’t linguistically have so many dualistic connotations. Eg can you perceive without a perceiver etc. I have already realised there is no perceiver only perception so in a way I am answering my own question!
Ok so I’ll go with perceiver as it does seem more direct in a way than the word awareness.
But if there is any info on why perception was chosen over awareness I would appreciate knowing the thinking behind this.

Is there a separation between perceiver – perceiving – perceived? Or is always just perceiving going on? Is it possible to find an entity called „I“ in perceiving?

I think I have just answered this, also Tom cracked this open the perceiver delusion for me near the beginning of LU.

Yet there is know I in awareness.
I guess you've ment there is „no“ I in awareness, right?

Right! 😂

Also in this reflection there had been a lot to let go which is why it has taken some time to come to terms with what is there and not what I have been previously taught or read about... like the concepts I have been taught like awareness and consciousness. No wonder I have been confused at times! There is only one experience as it were!
Much love,
Helen.

[barb]

The me-img seems just an interpretation from thought and feelings. But it’s quite quick to happen.
I have been just with sounds happening for the past week to really try and bee with just the happenings of sound without my reactions and interpretations.

Reactions and interpretation have not to vanish, it is enough to see them for what they are... :)

Logically you can’t really perceive the absence of experience as perception is there.
As an experiment... no I cannot perciveive the absence of experience.

Yes

The only absence of experience I know of through not being able to perceive it is in deep dreamless sleep, anaesthetics and when I have fainted.

Do we really know if there is deep sleep or anesthesia? Can we really know something for sure? Maybe it could all be a dream also the inference that there is deep sleep, isn't it? (I don't say, that it does not exist, this is just a possibility to ponder about... :))

Sometimes there is sort of zoning out which seems not so perceptive, like a different level consciousness (I know your likely not to like this consciousness word! ?)

It doesn't matter which word is used, I prefer just the word that creates the smallest scope for identification... :)

but even when I am zoned out I am zoned into something.

Exactly, there is always experiencing/perceiving going on...

My I-ing had a lot to say about this!!!!
Like why did LU chose the word perceiving over awareness?

LU did not choose something, LU is not an entity... ;) There are many guides and every guide has his style. Some guides use the word „awareness“... As I said above for me it is all a matter of identification. And I have seen that it happens very easy that if the illusion of a separate entity „I“ is seen through, a new identification takes place - with awareness or consciousness or whatever...

Personally I would have gone for awareness over perceiving only because awareness seems much more neutral and doesn’t linguistically have so many dualistic connotations. Eg can you perceive without a perceiver etc. I have already realised there is no perceiver only perception so in a way I am answering my own question!

:)

Ok so I’ll go with perceiver as it does seem more direct in a way than the word awareness.
But if there is any info on why perception was chosen over awareness I would appreciate knowing the thinking behind this.

More important is the question: Who or what wants to know and why?

The reason why I prefer perceiving/experiencing is that it suggests more that everything is a happening. There is no steady thing in life, life is always life-ing. Awareness sounds like a noun, an object... But are there really static objects? Or just happenings going on, just verbs, just flowing? But that's all just words, words, words... there are too many of them... ;))

I think I have just answered this, also Tom cracked this open the perceiver delusion for me near the beginning of LU.

It does not matter if a question is asked more than once since you have always to look with a fresh and new sight on everything. And I don`t go always over the entire thread if I give you questions and exercises ;)

This question is the main question - the key question in the entire investigation, I will ask you something similar more often. If you had seen the answer on this question in its entirety, then this investigation would no longer take place, then we would be finished already :)

So please answer the question - not out of the memory of your mind! JUST LOOK what is the experience about these questions!

Is there a separation between perceiver – perceiving – perceived? Or is always just perceiving going on? Is it possible to find an entity called „I“ in perceiving?

Also in this reflection there had been a lot to let go which is why it has taken some time to come to terms with what is there and not what I have been previously taught or read about... like the concepts I have been taught like awareness and consciousness. No wonder I have been confused at times! There is only one experience as it were!

Great! Yes if we cling onto words and thoughts there can always be a lot of confusion. But confusion is a good sign :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's now have a further look, if thoughts/words can know anything about reality:

Sit at home with eyes closed. In your mind, imagine going to the kitchen and getting a piece of fruit (be sure to choose something you already have in stock, as we will need it after).

Try to fully imagine actually going there, picking it up, the look of it, the color, texture, smell, reflections of light. Then imagine biting into the fruit, tasting it, the texture, sweetness, sharpness, all the qualities. Imagine every aspect, make it as real as possible, and write the descriptions down...

Now open your eyes, and actually go to the kitchen. Take the piece of fruit out for real, and look at it, examine the color, texture, smell, reflections of light. Now actually bite into the fruit and taste it, experience the texture, the sweetness, sharpness, etc.


Then look at your written words and imagine how you would describe the current experience.

Now ask yourself:

Do the descriptions have anything in common with the reality of the actual experience?
Can a word, such as sweet or juicy, know anything about the reality of the actual experience?
Can thought ever know anything about an experience in general?

Has a thought/word/imagination anything to do with direct experience? Can a thought anything know about truth/reality?

[Legg]

Hi Barb,
I am still here! Sorry for not posting sooner. Life has a habit of getting in the way at times.

So back to it!

Do the descriptions have anything in common with the reality of the actual experience?
Can a word, such as sweet or juicy, know anything about the reality of the actual experience?
Can thought ever know anything about an experience in general?

No descriptions have nothing of similarity to the actual experiences. Words do not seem to know themselves. They are disconnected from the experiences. As related as blah blah blah... But wow I have loved the story though 😂 A thought cannot know anything about an experience as the thought doesn’t know anything.

Has a thought/word/imagination anything to do with direct experience? Can a thought anything know about truth/reality?

A thought doesn’t know of truth/reality.


Sometimes when I initially read the task it’s seems a lot but when I get down to it it’s not!!!!

Thanks for letting me know about why certain words were/are chosen. I wasn’t being critical in any way at all, but it’s just helpful to know and gives me confidence in what this is all about. I’m interested in general to know how things are taught that’s all.

And weirdly I m not feeling confused about what I am learning in LU, the simplification of life’s experiences is wonderful and seeing through the delusion of concepts is great.

Many thanks,
Helen.