Seeing that frees

[Stillness]

Hello again! I will try to find someone for you, okay?

[Echoz]

Sounds good, thank you!

[Stillness]

I found a new guide for you who will shortly be taking over.
Love

[Echoz]

Thanks, I appreciated it!

[Vivien]

Hi Echoz,

My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you to continue in your inquiry.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually (just as you mentioned in your original post), that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

It’s been a while since your conversation with Stillness, so could you please give me some updates where are you at the moment?

How does the self show up in your everyday life?

Is there any particular topic you feel you are stuck with or anything you would like to look into more?

Is there any fear or resistance for the possibility that there isn’t and has never been a self?

And, how can I call you? I mean, what name do you prefer?

Vivien

[Echoz]

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Yes.

How does the self show up in your everyday life?

It seems to show up in thoughts, often about the past and the potential future.

Is there any particular topic you feel you are stuck with or anything you would like to look into more?

Examining thoughts might be useful, seems to be a hangup. I tend to take thoughts as being true and accurate all the time.

Is there any fear or resistance for the possibility that there isn’t and has never been a self?

When I read this question a feeling of fear or resistance seemed to come up, so yes.

And, how can I call you? I mean, what name do you prefer?

You can just call me by my username.

Thanks!

[Vivien]

Hi Echoz,

Examining thoughts might be useful, seems to be a hangup. I tend to take thoughts as being true and accurate all the time.

All right. We are going to deeply look into thoughts, but before doing so, let’s look into the fear/resistance.

It’s important because fear can be a hindrance of going further. But actually, fear is nothing more than a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. There is a belief, a story somewhere about pain or negative consequences to seeing the illusion of the self. And the fear tries to protect you from these supposed negative consequences. So let’s find out what this story is about and see if they are real threats or not.

What I’d like you to do is to investigate this fear. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.
Ask the fear as if it were a some kind of entity:

What do you want to protect me from?

What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?

Observe what visual thoughts and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear?

Vivien

[Echoz]

What do you want to protect me from?

Mental suffering or maybe a "Dark night" so to speak.

What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?

I don't know, it's uncertain and that might cause fear, it's like there is no control. Will I dive into a depression or mania or any other possible thing? It's rudderless.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear?

A sense of being/aliveness kind of like an open background.

[Vivien]

Hi Echoz,

Mental suffering or maybe a "Dark night" so to speak.

The self is ALREADY not there, and it has never been. So why would the seeing of this change anything?

Dark night of the soul is a popular spiritual term, but I think it’s quite overrated. It’s not about seeing no-self, but about psychological issues, which won’t be resolved just because the self is seen through.

Physiological problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.

What some people refer to as the ‘dark night of the soul’ is nothing else than personality problems (which stems from childhood), which could be more accessible after seeing through the self.

And by the way, what soul? Soul = self

After seeing through the self, it can be seen easily that any seeming suffering (which by the way also is an illusion) doesn’t happen to a self/soul or anything at all, it’s just thoughts and sensations free-floating, without being anchored to or happening to anything.

And the freedom lies in this.

I don't know, it's uncertain and that might cause fear, it's like there is no control. Will I dive into a depression or mania or any other possible thing?

There is no control ALREADY. Whether you see it or not. And yet everything happens naturally on its own. This won’t change just because the truth of this is seen.

Who or what would have control if the self/I is just imagined?
And more importantly who/what could lose control?
In order to lose control, someone or something has to have control here now.

Have you had depression or mania before? That’s why you are concerned?

Because if you haven’t, then how could you become depressed or dive into mania if there is ALREADY no self there?
If seeing no self meant becoming depressed or maniac, then you MUST ALREADY BE depressed or maniac! :)
Since the self is ALREADY not there!
Can you see the falsity of this logic?

Please read my above comments several times, and really ponder on them.

Vivien

[Echoz]

Have you had depression or mania before? That’s why you are concerned?

Had a "mystical experience" like a decade ago that certainly had some traits of mania, but nothing since.

If seeing no self meant becoming depressed or maniac, then you MUST ALREADY BE depressed or maniac! :)
Since the self is ALREADY not there!

True, there is nothing HERE to become anything. Depression, mania, happiness, sadness and whatever emotion just arise, but it doesn't arise to anything.

Can you see the falsity of this logic?

Yes, mental suffering, depression etc all happen to a person, but there is no one here for it to happen to.

[Vivien]

Hi Echoz,

Had a "mystical experience" like a decade ago that certainly had some traits of mania, but nothing since.

That doesn’t count :) Since seeing through the self is not a state, not a different state that you are normally having.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

It's just the experiential RECOGNITION that the self is just an illusion, just an imagination, which is not actually there, even when it seems to be there.

And by the way, the illusion of the self will NOT stop appearing even after it’s seen through.
Why would it? What has never existed cannot disappear.
The illusion of the self will still go on.

Yes, mental suffering, depression etc all happen to a person, but there is no one here for it to happen to.

Is the fear still there?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Vivien

[Echoz]

Is the fear still there?

Not at the moment, which I guess is all that counts.

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Yes!

[Vivien]

Hi Echoz,

All right, let’s start it. We are going to start to investigate thoughts. Seeing thoughts clearly is essential part of the inquiry.

It is very important that you never think or ponder on the questions. Rather you actually have to look what you can see in your immediate experience without any thought interpretation.

Please always be thorough with looking. Look repeatedly several times before replying.

Please sit, doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch thoughts coming and going.

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?

Vivien

[Echoz]

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?

They seem to arise out of nothing. Sometimes a thoughts/sensation triggers more thoughts, but traced back it goes to nothing.

In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?

Thoughts arise until they don't, going back to the same thing it came from.

Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?

Thoughts arise from and go to this empty space/nothing.

[Vivien]

Hi Echoz,

Thoughts arise from and go to this empty space/nothing.

HOW do you know experientially, that thoughts are coming and going from an empty space?

How does this ‘empty space’ experienced?
As a sound? Color? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Imagination?

Please look carefully with thes questions. Really investigate the experience itself.


Try an experiment.

Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?

What is making thoughts to appear?

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?

Vivien