guide request

[freefall322]

Hi, my name is Marc and i'm requesting a guide.
I learned of this site through the batgap interview.
I thought I'd give it a try since I would sincerely like to achieve liberation (in the sense that this term is used on this site).
My illusion of self is occasionally causing me a great deal of discomfort,
and also getting rid of illusions is a worthwhile activity to start with.
Regards, Marc

[Pathfinder]

Hey Marc, my name is Erik.

That particular illusion has kicked my ass up and down the sidewalk over the years so I can sympathize. The word we use for “liberation” is pretty much irrelevant beyond its use as a reference point so feel free to call it whatever you want.

In working with me, I ask that you reply with as much honesty as you can and that you post at least once per-day in this thread. I’ll even return the courtesy ;).

You seem ready to hit the ground running so I’ll start you off with a zinger.

What comes up when I say: There is no separate entity called Marc in real life at all; there never was.

[freefall322]

Hi Eric, thanks for your help, I sincerely appreciate it.

What comes up when I say: There is no separate entity called Marc in real life at all; there never was.

I may not know exactly what "Marc" is, but I strongly experience such an entity in practice through the body.

The entity labelled as "Marc" seems to be always on the inside my my skin boundary, with the remainder of the universe being on the other side. There's an even stronger sense of that entity approximately located between my ears.

I also seem to have the free choice to move this body in anyway I choose and I seem to have some level of control over my thoughts, or least an ability to limit thoughts to a particular subject. Because of all this phenomenological evidence, it's going to be very difficult for you to convince me that there's no entity called Marc.

But please don't give up on me, if there is an illusion to see and drop, then I want to see it. Maybe I just don't understand what exactly you mean by the statement "There is no separate entity called Marc in real life at all; there never was."

[Pathfinder]

I may not know exactly what "Marc" is, but I strongly experience such an entity in practice through the body.

This has been your reality for a fair portion of your life so it's quite understandable. I won't hold it against you ;).

The entity labelled as "Marc" seems to be always on the inside my my skin boundary, with the remainder of the universe being on the other side. There's an even stronger sense of that entity approximately located between my ears.

You are in fact a multi-cellular biological organism that is existing and this is your intellectual (and at present visceral) understanding of things. There nothing inherently good or bad about this present understanding either. However, you're here talking to me. It's seems you may be a bit skeptical despite your assertions.

I also seem to have the free choice to move this body in anyway I choose and I seem to have some level of control over my thoughts, or least an ability to limit thoughts to a particular subject. Because of all this phenomenological evidence, it's going to be very difficult for you to convince me that there's no entity called Marc.

Here is a great point for you to examine closely. Human mind is very apt to take credit for things that happen, whether or not there was any real conscious volition/control over them. It's time to look closely.

Lift your arm up and look at it. Lower your arm back down. Repeat this exercise as necessary. Who is telling the arm to raise and lower? Pay very close to body sensations as you're doing this. What is in control of this action? Who is directing the arm?

But please don't give up on me, if there is an illusion to see and drop, then I want to see it. Maybe I just don't understand what exactly you mean by the statement "There is no separate entity called Marc in real life at all; there never was."

Did I give the impression that I was giving up on you? This worry is strictly in your own mind. We call it the "shadow self". There are some interesting articles on our website about it that you can read later.

Thanks for explaining your confusion about the last question, there isn't anything wrong with that. We'll come back to it later.

[freefall322]

Lift your arm up and look at it. Lower your arm back down. Repeat this exercise as necessary. Who is telling the arm to raise and lower?

Here's what happened in each cycle:
(1) I (i.e. the entity called Marc) decided to raise my arm.
(2) The arm went up at the rate I want it to.
(3) The arm stopped when I decided it was time to stop.
(4) I looked at my arm.
(5) Same process occurred in reverse on the way down.
If anything this exercise is re-enforcing my belief in an entity called Marc who is commanding all the arm movements. There is no sense at all that I have no "real conscious volition/control" over my arm movements. I suspect that is not what you wanted to hear, but if it were otherwise, I guess I would not be asking for help on this site.

Pay very close to body sensations as you're doing this. What is in control of this action?

Again, this exercise is re-enforcing my belief in an entity called Marc or, if the self is an illusion, re-enforcing this illusion. But I don't see it as an illusion.

Who is directing the arm?

Marc? No? What am I missing here?

Did I give the impression that I was giving up on you?

No, you certainly did not. I just think that this conversation is going to last more than a few days given how deeply entrenched my sense of self has become over the years.

[Pathfinder]

No worries Marc, it'll take however long it takes. The nice thing about this process is that we're not trying to add on to your existing beliefs. This is about looking at what's already there and questioning it. This actually brought to mind one of my favorite quotes from 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance':

"You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They KNOW it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt."

Now moving on!

Again, this exercise is re-enforcing my belief in an entity called Marc or, if the self is an illusion, re-enforcing this illusion. But I don't see it as an illusion.

Marc, your belief in a separate self is an illusion. Certainly your parents gave the child born to them the label of 'Marc' and that has stuck over the years. Look at it though. Is there a separate entity floating around outside of your skull controlling your actions? Are you a puppet for some being that exists as separate from your body? What happens to 'Marc' when the body dies?

Please try to answer the questions as best you can. Also, please describe the feelings that happen as you consider each one.

[freefall322]

Look at it though. Is there a separate entity floating around outside of your skull controlling your actions?

A separate entity floating around outside of my skull controlling my actions seems to be a new concept that neither you nor I mentioned before. But to answer the question, no, there is no such an entity as far as I know. I seem to believe in an entity that is inside my skull (and therefore part of my body) that is controlling my actions. That is my, as you mentioned before, my visceral understanding of what the self is. Am I intellectually prepared to accept that it is illusion? Absolutely. Have I experienced the uncovering of this illusion? Not at all.
Feelings that happened as I considered this question: none, but that is because I am emotionally numb right now. My emotions rarely surface most of the time, I`m not sure why. At other times I can`t control a huge outpouring of emotions starting with anxiety, I've just emerged from such a period a few weeks ago which lasted 2 weeks. During that time I desperately pursued spiritual answers starting with Eckhart Tolle who was at the time my only source, and then I found that the web is full of spiritual teachers and discovered non-duality teachings. That`s how I ended up on this website. My answers to your questions would have a different flavor if I was in an emotional state, but I'm hoping that doesn't matter too much for the purposes of this inquiry into the illusion of self-image.

Are you a puppet for some being that exists as separate from your body?

No, not as far as I know.
Feelings that happened as I considered this question: none

What happens to 'Marc' when the body dies?

It could be a void, the end of existence or perhaps not. I have no idea based on first hand experience (i.e. I've never had a near death experience).
Feelings that happened as I considered this question: I had so much terrifying death anxiety when I was very young that I can't feel anything anymore when I consider death. But when a person or animal close to me dies, I know that I desperately need an answer to this question, mostly to know to know if the being that departed still exists in some form and if I will ever see or experience that being again when I die myself.

I hope I understood your questions, but since we're in this for the long haul, I guess you will have many opportunities to provide clarification if that is not the case.

[Pathfinder]

As long as you are answering questions honestly and from your experience then you are doing fine. I would like you to change one thing though. No more of this "I seem to believe" or any of that. Answer from your experience as directly and honestly as you can. The less hesitation between writing and posting, the better.

I seem to believe in an entity that is inside my skull (and therefore part of my body) that is controlling my actions. That is my, as you mentioned before, my visceral understanding of what the self is.

This is where we need to look now. You suspect that this noself stuff is solid, but you don't know how to find your way there (correct me if I'm wrong). This is what the questions are for. If they get a bit repetitive or do not seem to be bringing to mind new angles on the same topic please let me know.

Now, let's deconstruct "I". This belief/visceral understanding that you have is false. Please LOOK at your experience of the present moment. What exactly is this sense of "self"? Where is it located? When you are very focused on a particular activity, where does "I" go?

It may help to close your eyes and to settle your awareness on breath for 5-10 minutes or so. When your attention drives, go back to the body sensation of breathing. Give that a shot and then answer these questions.

[freefall322]

No more of this "I seem to believe" or any of that. Answer from your experience as directly and honestly as you can. The less hesitation between writing and posting, the better.

Good point, it's either real or it is not. I''ll keep that in mind.

This is where we need to look now. You suspect that this noself stuff is solid, but you don't know how to find your way there (correct me if I'm wrong).

Correct, I am lost.

If they get a bit repetitive or do not seem to be bringing to mind new angles on the same topic please let me know.

OK

Please LOOK at your experience of the present moment. What exactly is this sense of "self"?

When I can't be lazy and use qualifiers like "I seem to believe" or "it seems", it's very difficult to answer this simple question. It would take weeks to exactly describe a few seconds of really looking at the experience of the present moment (not that anyone can anyway). Up to now we've been talking about the concept of a self in the context of the body physiology, but looking carefully for an experience of the self in the context of the experience of the present moment is very different.
Anyway, enough hesitation. When I look at the experience of the present moment, the sense of self is only a part of the present moment. It is the sum of the body sensations, the seeing, the smelling, the hearing, the tasting and the thoughts. Er, wait, that's the entire present moment, I'm getting confused. To be more precise, if you call call whatever I notice in the present moment the "object", then the sense self is the sense of a "subject" that is observing it. No, that's not quite right either, or at least it's not a precise definition; but it's the best I can do right now.

Where is it located?

In the body somewhere? I can't think where else it could be. Sorry, that's still not a very precise answer, and I'm not happy with it, but again the best I can do.

When you are very focused on a particular activity, where does "I" go?

The "I" goes into that activity, at the expense of not being in the rest of the present moment. I've just at this moment felt a sensation in my right foot, and the sense of self went from being in the head mostly to be in both the head and the foot, then back to the head mostly. But that was not a very focused activity. Very focused activities can cause my "I" to temporarily disappear.

It may help to close your eyes and to settle your awareness on breath for 5-10 minutes or so. When your attention drives, go back to the body sensation of breathing. Give that a shot and then answer these questions.

What to you mean by "attention drives"? Anyway I did this exercise a few times before answering the questions.

[Pathfinder]

What to you mean by "attention drives"?

I meant to say drifts. Woops! It could be helpful to your progress if you could perform this exercise (settling your attention on breath, and bringing it back to the sensation of breathing when thoughts happen) every morning at a set time after you wake up for 10-15 minutes. Additionally, try doing this before answering questions. It seems to have really helped the clarity of your answers so please make this a habit from here on out if you can.

When I can't be lazy and use qualifiers like "I seem to believe" or "it seems", it's very difficult to answer this simple question.

Do you find it interesting that this "I" that you've spent your entire life believing in is so hard to find? To pin down?

Up to now we've been talking about the concept of a self in the context of the body physiology, but looking carefully for an experience of the self in the context of the experience of the present moment is very different.

This is what we will continue to look at and question. Over and over and over. * villainous laughter*

To be more precise, if you call call whatever I notice in the present moment the "object", then the sense self is the sense of a "subject" that is observing it. No, that's not quite right either, or at least it's not a precise definition; but it's the best I can do right now.

Let's tease this apart a bit. After performing your breathing exercise, start paying very close attention to your present-moment experience. When body sensations, thoughts or actions happen, note how the "I" label gets applied to them retroactively.

For example, I'm sitting in my chair right now with a water bottle to my right. Sometimes I pick it up and drink out of it. Did "I" decide to do that? Was it conscious volition?

Another example... My bladder is full from emptying this gigantic water bottle. I get up to go to the bathroom. Who decided to get up? Did "I" make the conscious decision ahead of time? When does this "I" label get applied?

Very focused activities can cause my "I" to temporarily disappear.

You said it. It disappears. Where does it go? Do you know of any other object that disappears when you are focused on your body sensations? Does the couch cease to exist as you're watching TV? Something seems fishy here!

[freefall322]

Hi Eric,

Do you find it interesting that this "I" that you've spent your entire life believing in is so hard to find? To pin down?

Yes, but I've looked over my previous posts and can find at least one solid definition for the sense of "I": it is the the one who makes innumerable decisions like lifting the arm, or what to buy in the store, or when to go for a walk (I should have written that in my previous post, but I did not think of it). I know you're going to repeat that there is no "I" that makes these decisions and that ' an "I" label gets applied to them retroactively'; I sincerely hope to experience this retroactive labeling someday, but I can't see that now.

I should say that I have not held any real beliefs concerning the "I" in the past few years. What I was referring to in earlier posts was a sense of self derived from body sensations and the decision making. I don't find beliefs very useful in general. What's important to me is facts based on evidence or at least experience.

For example, I'm sitting in my chair right now with a water bottle to my right. Sometimes I pick it up and drink out of it. Did "I" decide to do that? Was it conscious volition?

It could be conscious volition at times, but at other times I agree you could be doing it instinctively.

Another example... My bladder is full from emptying this gigantic water bottle. I get up to go to the bathroom. Who decided to get up?

Another example of an instinctive action that could still be conventionally called "done by an entity called Eric", but I get your point. But I just see these instinctive non-decisions as the exceptions but not the general rule.

Did "I" make the conscious decision ahead of time? When does this "I" label get applied?

You could say instinctively, out of habit, got up to go to the bathroom and did not make the conscious decision ahead of time (you could have, but I'll assume you did not). This is a case where the "I" label gets applied retroactively. But I would also assume that when you plan where to go on vacation for example, or what clothes to wear, you don't do that instinctively, there is some thinking by an "I" involved.

You said it. It disappears. Where does it go?

Like I said in the previous post: 'the "I" goes into that activity'. I should not have used the word "disappears", I should have said it moves from between the ears to the activity which could be for example the tying of the shoe laces. In this sense I am defining the "I" as whatever is aware of sensations. In addition, there could also be another sense "I" as the subject that made the decision to tie the shoe laces. Great, now I have 2 "I"'s; this is going to take longer than I thought :). But seriously the decision maker "I" is a not constant immutable entity since it's not there when decisions are not being made. The awareness "I" is always there but I don't think that this is what you meant by an "I" entity as the topic of your questions.

Do you know of any other object that disappears when you are focused on your body sensations? Does the couch cease to exist as you're watching TV? Something seems fishy here!

I'm assuming these are rhetorical questions. But just in case: no and no.

[Pathfinder]

You could say instinctively, out of habit, got up to go to the bathroom and did not make the conscious decision ahead of time (you could have, but I'll assume you did not). This is a case where the "I" label gets applied retroactively. But I would also assume that when you plan where to go on vacation for example, or what clothes to wear, you don't do that instinctively, there is some thinking by an "I" involved.

Lets take a different angle on it then.

You walk into your living room and stub your toe on the coffee table. Your subjective experience will typically shift to something like "Oh fuck my toe hurts, I'm in pain" after a bit of hopping around.

This is a clear case of where the "I" labeling process happens after the event. Walking happens, toe ramming into solid object happens, pain signals are shot to the brain, pain blossoms in your awareness and you have some sort of reaction, then the "I" process kicks in and starts flailing around on top of it.

I'm saying that this same process (while less obvious) still applies to pretty much all thought and feeling. Thoughts about things (ideas, whatever) bubble up out of various brain processes, emotions happen and the "I" takes credit for it all. Seriously, the next time you have an idea or strong emotion pay close attention to how your own mind processes it.

Ask yourself: Is there really a controller for my actions?

I think a story might help you here. Reading this story is actually what got me to "see" this thing. It's pretty long, but it should help illustrate the points I'm talking about much more eloquently:

http://ruthlesstruthdotcom.blogspot.com ... shine.html

[freefall322]

Ask yourself: Is there really a controller for my actions?

Sadly, yes, I still feel this "I".

I think a story might help you here. Reading this story is actually what got me to "see" this thing. It's pretty long, but it should help illustrate the points I'm talking about much more eloquently:
http://ruthlesstruthdotcom.blogspot.com ... shine.html

Wow, what a story. I was hoping as I read the conversation between Ciaran and his "guest Viking" that I would see the illusion of "controller" myself. But no such luck, thus the 'Sadly, yes, I still feel this "I"' comment above.

Thanks for the link, it was a fascinating read. I will probably reread it many times.

[Pathfinder]

Sadly, yes, I still feel this "I".

What exactly is it that you hope you will achieve through this "seeing"? What are your expectations there?

[freefall322]

What exactly is it that you hope you will achieve through this "seeing"?

I want to completely obliterate the illusion of an "I" that is separate from the rest of the universe.
After that I would assume that being lived without a parasitical "I" would at least allow for a more
meaningful life in which the world is allowed to be what it is instead of what the "I" wants it to be.
Then I want to spend the rest of my life obliterating any other delusions and perhaps helping
other beings if that is possible.
As Ciaran says: "This is a truth who's time has come. We live our lives in a daze of apathy because we don't know any way that can seriously make an impact in the chaos of this world."
I can really identify with that, I really feel helpless to do anything but something must be done.
I'm sure the reason I feel so helpless is because the "I" is blind to what the world really is.

What are your expectations there?

That's a good question because I know the creators of this site make it clear that they only offer the removal the "I" illusion, but that's all I expect really, just that would be a huge first step for me. If I don't take this first step then this life will never move beyond.

Somehow I get the impression that I will never succeed though.
I think I'm far too eccentric and far too "trapped" by the ego.
But I have no choice but to keep trying.