Looking for guidance

[odemira]

Hi William

Lots happening for 'you' - great! And you're not going to see through this illusion fully until you LOOK.

Looking is looking at a mind trying to checkmate itself and going in circles

No, this isn't looking, this is noticing the thoughts, and as you say, it's going round in circles. You can't think yourself anywhere with this now, you have to LOOK.

Actually, as a musician, it might be easier for you to start with your hearing. When you're listening to music, when you're really focused on the music, is there any separation between 'hearing' and 'music'? Or is it all one seamless experience? What about with other sounds? Are they happening 'out there' or 'in here' or something else? Answer this from what is directly experienced, not from what 'you' think about it. I know you had an understanding of this the other day, but it doesn't seem complete to you as yet, yes?

I was reading an art book about how to draw, and it said that the reason a lot of people find it hard to draw is because they don't LOOK properly - they glance at something, the mind labels it, and thinks it knows what that object looks like, and that is what is drawn. But looking needs to be done slowly, with lots of attention, so that it bypasses the mind's tendency to jump to conclusions. So you need to look in this way at the view from your eyes - when you look at your hands playing an instrument, are they separate from the instrument visually? Really look,
keep looking!

with love
Odemira

[Spacefrog]

Dear Odemira,

Let's continue :)

When you're listening to music, when you're really focused on the music, is there any separation between 'hearing' and 'music'? Or is it all one seamless experience?

Going to focus on this throughout the day but here is the first attempt.

Music playing.

First the easy part, the mind says:"I am listening to a piece of music" and starts to put all kinds of labels on it.

Trying to dive into the actual experience and describe it.

The hearing and the music are inseparable. But on the other hand, the music comes from a certain place in the room and for the sake of the experience I can't say that the hearing is located because it has always been the only experience, so I take that as the benchmark.

As I walk away from the 'source' of the playing track.
The music gets less loud. There is no distance created between the hearing and the music. There is hearing music or there is just hearing. Hearing music fades into hearing without music when walking away.

While listening, the mind constantly implies a distance between the source of the music and the receiver.
Therefor it is tempting to say that the source and the receiver seem separated.

Trying to look more deeply into this.

Source (laptop) - Hearing (..) - Receiver (ears). They seem separated. We could define where the source is and where it is not. As for the receiver, it is always HERE but not THERE (other side of the room for example).
But the hearing is completely impossible to locate. There is just hearing, there is never a distance from hearing.
The music and the hearing are inseparable. The source and the hearing are also inseparable. It is all embracing.

Strange thing is that the above implies subject and object. Receiver and source. Are we missing the point here?

Back soon with more..

Love, William

[odemira]

Hi William,

Good observations. I suggest some of what is being noticed is based on direct experience in the moment, and some of it it based on assumption, habit, what the mind has always thought about the way things are. For example:

the mind constantly implies a distance between the source of the music and the receiver.
Therefor it is tempting to say that the source and the receiver seem separated.

THE MIND IMPLIES = a thought.

So check this out carefully - what is the actual experience and what is only mental implication? These mental implications are misleading you, leading you to doubt the truth of the actual experience.

with love
odemira

[Spacefrog]

what is the actual experience and what is only mental implication?

Ok will check this out further. Just can't get my head around this 'distance' thing. The hearing and the heard are inseparable, this is clear. But the source and the receiver have a distance in between them. 'The mind implies' is a thought, but is distance a mental implication? It seems very real to me.

Just trying to stay as close as possible to my experience at this moment, without trying to mimic the experience that sought, so we can find what's in the way.

[Spacefrog]

Just don't give up on 'me' Odemira, really trying here.

[odemira]

Hi William

I have no intention of giving up, and I understand you're really trying :)

The hearing and the music are inseparable. But on the other hand, the music comes from a certain place in the room and for the sake of the experience I can't say that the hearing is located because it has always been the only experience, so I take that as the benchmark.

You're over complicating this. The actual experience is 'hearing and music are inseparable'. 'The music comes from a certain place in the room' is knowledge, a thought.

It's irrelevant that the sound gets louder or quieter as the ears move closer or further away. Strip it down to the basics, and what is there is 'experiencing' - in this example, hearing. Does hearing happen without a sound to hear? Does a sound exist if noone hears it?

Can you see that it is the thoughts that create the sense of separation? Like when you're 'lost in music', so engrossed that no thoughts arise, is there any separation then?

Is there still a subtle sense of an I that is separated from what is being experienced?

Keep looking, paying close attention to what is actually experienced, and ignore the content of the thoughts, ok?

with love
Odemira

[Spacefrog]

Hey Odemira,

You're over complicating this. The actual experience is 'hearing and music are inseparable'. 'The music comes from a certain place in the room' is knowledge, a thought.

Yes you're right. It's probably because I feel I'm still missing something, but making it more complicated isn't going to solve this puzzle.

Although I'm not sure if I can follow you completely on this one. Are you sure that it's thought that locates where a sound comes from? isn't this a natural sense of the human mechanism?

Does hearing happen without a sound to hear? Does a sound exist if noone hears it?

You could put a voice memo recorder in the woods and come back after the tree has fallen and it will have the sound recorded of a falling tree. Sorry I don't mean to get in discussion with you, it's really because it doesn't make complete sense yet.

Can you see that it is the thoughts that create the sense of separation? Like when you're 'lost in music', so engrossed that no thoughts arise, is there any separation then?

THIS part is clear to me. It is the thoughts that puts us on a seemingly individual path through life but all these stories are appearing in this timeless space.

so engrossed that no thoughts arise, is there any separation then?

This question hit me.
Earlier on I was trying to imagine how we would experience the world if we had no memory. It's kind of impossible to imagine but I figured it would just be a dense, self containing, moving image or event.
This is the only reality.
So no, taking away thoughts/memory, there is no separation. I'm gonna sit a little more on this question.

Is there still a subtle sense of an I that is separated from what is being experienced?

Yes there is. I think this is the part that is still getting in the way at the moment. It subsided last week but and it didn't come back as before but there are some traces of 'me' left.
Time to wipe that out :)

Keep looking, paying close attention to what is actually experienced, and ignore the content of the thoughts, ok?

Thank you Odemira, will do!

[Spacefrog]

Good day Odemira,

I'm kind of stuck today with enquiring. I can't really figure where to look at the moment.
The sense of self has gradually been coming back since last week and there's a tendency to get frustrated and desperate at certain moments.
I know that this won't get me anywhere but with that in mind it triggers even other thoughts on top if it saying that I shouldn't feel this way.
I need to get back on track here. :(

Love, William

[odemira]

Hi William,

I hear your frustration!

The sense of self has gradually been coming back since last week

In what way is this 'self' being sensed? Is it the body? Is it the controller of the body? The doer? The experiencer? Is it the thinker? What else could it SEEM to be? Then look and locate it - can it be found?

there's a tendency to get frustrated and desperate at certain moments. I know that this won't get me anywhere but with that in mind it triggers even other thoughts on top if it saying that I shouldn't feel this way. I need to get back on track here. :(

Are these just thoughts appearing? What is the subject of these thoughts?

how we would experience the world if we had no memory. It's kind of impossible to imagine but I figured it would just be a dense, self containing, moving image or event. This is the only reality. So no, taking away thoughts/memory, there is no separation.

Yes, just experience happening. When a thought arises, is that also an experience?

If a thought arises about the cup sitting on your desk, that's a thought about a real object. If a thought arises about a purple fairy, that's a thought about an imaginary character. Real being that that doesn't disappear when you stop believing in it. So are the thoughts about 'you' about a real object or an imaginary character?

with love
Odemira

[Spacefrog]

Hi Odemira,

Thank you for understanding. I guess this is part of the process.

In what way is this 'self' being sensed? Is it the body? Is it the controller of the body? The doer? The experiencer? Is it the thinker? What else could it SEEM to be? Then look and locate it - can it be found?

There is a thought that is telling 'I was almost through the gate and then I bounced off, I am responsible for this'. Body reacts with emotions. Mind reacts to the emotions, 'I shouldn't be feeling this way, I should have more courage'.
These thoughts and feelings are experienced exclusively. They didn't occur to any other person.
This reinforces the idea of being separate and limited.

I can figure that the STORY of William exists only in thoughts, but what about in this very moment. putting the story aside, is this body/mind capable of choosing, doing, thinking, etc?

Hey wait, that makes sense. When we say 'there is no thinker, doer' etc., maybe that doesn't necessarily mean that there is no body/mind thinking, doing etc. right?

Maybe this is just identification with the body/mind.. Can you help me out here?

Why, if we drop the story of William, am I NOT the experiencer, the subject of this body/mind and through that, the world?

Are these just thoughts appearing? What is the subject of these thoughts?

The subject in the thought is I. The subject of the thought..... boo-yah.
This again shows that there are a lot of loose ends in the story.

Subject of the thought can't be I, because that is the subject in the thought.

Only thing that bothers is the exclusivity in which they appear. to this body/mind only, which then you could still refer to as I.

Yes, just experience happening. When a thought arises, is that also an experience?

It is an experience yes, but as said before, an exclusive experience. a sound of a car driving by could be experienced by many. A thought cannot.

If a thought arises about the cup sitting on your desk, that's a thought about a real object. If a thought arises about a purple fairy, that's a thought about an imaginary character. Real being that that doesn't disappear when you stop believing in it. So are the thoughts about 'you' about a real object or an imaginary character?

Have to sit on this question a little more. Be back soon.

Love, William

[Spacefrog]

If a thought arises about the cup sitting on your desk, that's a thought about a real object. If a thought arises about a purple fairy, that's a thought about an imaginary character. Real being that that doesn't disappear when you stop believing in it. So are the thoughts about 'you' about a real object or an imaginary character?

If you put someone that never heard of me in front of me and a cup, he or she would just say it's a cup and a person. But that again makes 'I' a person.

On the other hand, most of the thoughts are not about the body mind itself but about it's apparent relation to objects.
So yes that is imaginary.

Feel like I'm missing something here.. There's a lot of thinking/confusion in the way today.

[Spacefrog]

Thunder clouds have passed over.. Think it was sort of a hang over from the euphoric state that preceded it.
I would say that there was heavy mind activity going on which drew a lot of attention and left little space for seeing the bigger picture in that moment.

Anyway.. Having a lot of time today so back on track (If we ever were off) and on with the observations.

[Spacefrog]

Let's see how close we can get.

What is happening at this moment?

Seeing, hearing, smelling, sensing.
These are prior to thinking.

What left of me is there without thinking?

I can't be seen, touched, heard, smelled or sensed.
So there is no I without thinking.

Question pops up: "Can I think"?
This is a thought by itself.
"Then what is the subject of the thought"?
After 10 minutes of struggling with this question.. In direct experience there really seems to be no subject. There is only ever seeing, hearing, smelling, sensing and thinking. And the ongoing thinking/labeling the experience of seeing hearing, smelling and sensing forms a story. But this story never really takes place. It doesn't really exist. It is labels and concepts mentally attached to a reference point the mind creates: 'I'.

There is a mental layer projected upon the experience.

[odemira]

Woohoo William!

Thunder clouds have passed over.. Think it was sort of a hang over from the euphoric state that preceded it.
I would say that there was heavy mind activity going on which drew a lot of attention and left little space for seeing the bigger picture in that moment.

Am really glad the thought storms were seen for what they were, just thoughts, and have passed over. Thought storms do and will arise, until they don't. Thinking doesn't stop happening once the illusion of the 'I' is seen through but the thoughts are seen as just that, thoughts about an illusory character.

I can't be seen, touched, heard, smelled or sensed. So there is no I without thinking.In direct experience there really seems to be no subject. There is only ever seeing, hearing, smelling, sensing and thinking. And the ongoing thinking/labeling the experience of seeing hearing, smelling and sensing forms a story. But this story never really takes place. It doesn't really exist. It is labels and concepts mentally attached to a reference point the mind creates: 'I'.

How does it feel to recognise this?

Any trace of William anywhere else?

There is a mental layer projected upon the experience.

Is thinking not also part of the experience? Happening automatically, one thought arising after the next? As you say, forming a 'story'?

Are you expecting the thinking and the story telling to stop?

well done, William, dedicated looking!
with love
odemira

[Spacefrog]

Woohoo William!

Weeheee Odemira!

How does it feel to recognise this?

Recognizing this feels.. Well.. Liberating! Haha.
I was so persistent this afternoon in trying to find this 'I' in the direct experience and right when 'I' gave it up,

In direct experience there really seems to be no subject. There is only ever seeing, hearing, smelling, sensing and thinking. And the ongoing thinking/labeling the experience of seeing hearing, smelling and sensing forms a story. But this story never really takes place. It doesn't really exist. It is labels and concepts mentally attached to a reference point the mind creates: 'I'.

This arose.

Any trace of William anywhere else?

There is no William. But this needs to integrate a little further.
There is no lasting sensation of being liberated, it still feels more like knowledge at the moment. Whenever 'I' am observing like I was doing this afternoon this becomes very clear within moments, but it seems to stray off a little then.

My conclusion is that 'I' arrived at the gate and that what is needed is a last push to step through. Maybe you could figure what can give this illusion of William the death blow.

Is thinking not also part of the experience?

Definitely, but is labeling experienced as such? There is no experience of sitting in a room with familiar objects and having all these thoughts naming the objects.
I meant it as..

There is a mental layer projected upon the experience.

The brain interprets the room by projecting memories on it, not in the form of 'thinking' but subconsciously.

Is thinking not also part of the experience? Happening automatically, one thought arising after the next? As you say, forming a 'story'?

Thinking as in thoughts arising, yes. Definitely. There is nothing a-part from the experience.

are you expecting the thinking and the story telling to stop?

No, not expecting this, what I do expect is a deeper integration of this understanding as in further de-identification with the mind, as far as this exists since there is no-one to identify with. But I do expect that the chatter will be pulling less and will be canceling out itself more easily without the need to constantly investigate.

well done, William, dedicated looking!

Giving up is not in our dictionary! Thank you too Odemira, your guidance means the world.