ready to be guided

[arora]

I am pleasantly surprised to hear such bold confidence of breaking self open, as expressed here on Liberation Unleashed, Let's work on mine please

[Cam-RT]

Hello and Welcome!

First I do have one rule...When I ask questions that you answer (When Ready.) them with complete honesty, and what you feel is 100% True and Concise. 

Please take time daily to perform "The Work" (Not Byron Katie ;^) and LOOK introspectively...This in essence is a dysfunction of how one processes thought. What we are doing is challenging and triggering the thought process and shedding light on what truly is behind these thoughts...

One last thing I need to ask, is whatever spiritual practices, beliefs or readings, please put them on hold until we are done. They are of NO use here. You can revisit these when we're finished...

I realize that life gets a bit hectic, If you can check in and let me know how you're doing daily,(it's okay if you're busy as long as you keep our work in mind you're fine.) we can address where you're at on the path.

The Key here is Focus, Courage and Commitment, if not this will take far longer than it should. 

Are we Good??...Let's get Started.

So what expectations do you have from liberation ?

And what comes up when I say "There's no such Entity "Self" in real life at all??"

[arora]

Hi Cam-RT
Thank you, thank you so much for being my guide. I will try my best to follow your guidance.
Before answering your questions, I dont know if a quick introduction would help. If not, just ignore next few lines.
(33 yrs age, health care professional, relatively successful career, Indian-Australian. Personality: Calm, but thinking and somewhat confused. Non-duality path resonated and made sense, after quite a few books on the topic by contemporary teachers and internet videos, and a recent vipassana course, it has always felt understanding becoming clearer but not hard-hitting, life-changing, sticking state/experience)

So here I am:

"So what expectations do you have from liberation ?

And what comes up when I say "There's no such Entity "Self" in real life at all??"

I have expectations of deep inner peace, possibly joy and a balanced equanimous view, all of which wont get disturbed by ups and downs of life.
If I hear you say 'there is no entity as self', it is probably heard as 'i understand this as I have heard and even felt it being true (partially logically and partially because so many teachers say so) but not experience of it.'
Regards
arora

[Cam-RT]

Good Morning Arora...<----Such a beautiful name! :^)

(33 yrs age, health care professional, relatively successful career, Indian-Australian. Personality: Calm, but thinking and somewhat confused. Non-duality path resonated and made sense, after quite a few books on the topic by contemporary teachers and internet videos, and a recent vipassana course, it has always felt understanding becoming clearer but not hard-hitting, life-changing, sticking state/experience)

What if I said "YOU" are none of these!<--------These are labels and experiences. ;^)

I have expectations of deep inner peace, possibly joy and a balanced equanimous view, all of which wont get disturbed by ups and downs of life

This sounds good...The two main aspects from the start is desire and No "earth shaking/Sky opening" expectations...The reason being that no two people are the same when "IT" hits. Some are subtle and some are OMG!!..."Once it's seen it can't be unseen" AND "after care" is important once you're through because, as time go's by this "Gift" will deepen and broaden depending on what you choose to do with it...

If I hear you say 'there is no entity as self', it is probably heard as 'i understand this as I have heard and even felt it being true (partially logically and partially because so many teachers say so) but not experience of it.'

This question is meant mainly to poke and find out if fear is present, in which we would look at before we carry on...You're looking good! ;^)

In essence what we are dealing with here, is a dysfunction of the thought process that in fact creates what appears to be a separate being ( A thought.) that points toward ownership/identity that in reality doesn't exist...

Let me explain how this occurs right now. ( The UN-liberated state.)

The mind in addition to being and incredible processing and storage device also
is a labeling machine that labels experience as soon as perception happens...

Here's is an example...

Thought triggers feeling, feeling gets labeled--->New trigger--->Feeling gets
more intense--->more labels--->Vicious feedback loop...

This goes on endlessly as long as this mental dysfunction persists...(The Self)

Try finding some negative or insecure thoughts...The more intense the better for this exercise... Feel how the body responds when these thoughts arise?<-----You can use the body as a tool to trace back thoughts that are associated to "The self"...Remember the body doesn't lie. This reflex is the same if someone was to slap or punch you and the body automatically reacts to protect itself...TRY IT!! get the feel of that sensation. This to will help guide you.

So bring up one of these "uneasy feeling" thoughts...Now bring it up close and focus on what's behind this thought...
What's controlling these thought's?... Where do they come from??

[arora]

Hi Cam-RT

thank you again for taking the time to be with this.

You say you were checking if there is fear..i suppose there is some fear/anxiety..of not being able to do this intensely enough..honestly enough..and of mind coming up with an 'appropriate feeling' answer, rather than a 'from the heart' answer, but i guess the best i can do is try. Do you have any comment on this fear?

"So bring up one of these "uneasy feeling" thoughts...Now bring it up close and focus on what's behind this thought...
What's controlling these thought's?... Where do they come from??"

ok..it seems some thoughts like uneasy thoughts do appear automatically, (although they feel automatic only when I try to think of their origin in retrospect, this realising of automation is not my spontaneous experience). However there seems to be some volition in countering these or any other thoughts with an opposing argument, to make myself feel better.

Arora

[Cam-RT]

Hello Arora...

i suppose there is some fear/anxiety..of not being able to do this intensely enough..honestly enough..and of mind coming up with an 'appropriate feeling' answer, rather than a 'from the heart' answer,

No you're just fine ;^) What I'm talking about is clients that are so connected with fear that they physically become ill challenging thought...What you're talking about is normal, just take your time and use the body as a connection to these "rogue" thoughts...Believe it or not this is much simpler that one could imagine, just be honest with yourself and be thorough when you look...

However there seems to be some volition in countering these or any other thoughts with an opposing argument, to make myself feel better.

Don't try to force thought or try to eliminate it...It's NOT what we're doing here..It's the brains job is to think it a muscle so just let it be...Think of your mind as the sky, and thoughts are clouds...Some are BIG dark and ominous and others are little (kinda like chatter) they come and they go...When we go outside we don't say "Hey clouds go away!" and try to whisk them away, that's silly...just let them be and just WATCH. ;^)

I've got one more exercise to help you further understand how the body will help you recognize and trace these thoughts back to the source...

Okay, please take about twenty minutes or so and try and pay particular attention to how the body reacts as you perform this exercise...

First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.

Like this-
I am laying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words..

Do it for 10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for next 10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:
Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the rain.

Again watch what is happening in the body.

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Your body knows. I is a label, not experiencer. Not a thinker, not a doer, not a hearer of rain. I is not what makes eyes blink and it is not a breather, it's a word, that is used for convenience of communication. If it's believed to be an entity, the mind is confused, the body is tensed up. Unconfusing it is simple- bring attention back to now and look once again- is there a me behind the word 'me'?

Life is happening. Looking is happening. Getting lost in the story is happening. With or without label I.

What is not on automatic?
And do we really need to be enslaved by labels? After all, experience is what labels point TO.

Look. Don't think, just look.

What's there behind all these thoughts??

[arora]

I did the exercise Cam-RT, thank you for your kind suggestion. I think will sit on it for a bit longer to be more coherent in my feelings and my reply, before I get back to you.
Regards
Arora

[arora]

Hi Cam

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

With your exercise I am unsure about body response to the 2 ways of labeling experience. It may be truer and freer without I, but not strong enough in my body to 'aha' or a strong positive. It's probably my habit of not being strongly in touch with my body and not knowing its responses that is hindering this feeling.

However, when I pay attention I can (although intermittently) see that thoughts are labelling other thoughts/previous thoughts and I can see that my seeing of it is in slight retrospect, that is just after the thought has happened, and not while it is happening.

Unconfusing it is simple- bring attention back to now and look once again- is there a me behind the word 'me'?

Still unsure about what to reply to this...looking kind of tapers off into a numbness/blankness and there is no answer that appears

[Cam-RT]

Hello Arora...

It may be truer and freer without I, but not strong enough in my body to 'aha' or a strong positive. It's probably my habit of not being strongly in touch with my body and not knowing its responses that is hindering this feeling.

Hmm... Keep trying to focus throughout your day, and tell me 'if' and 'where' in the body you feel a 'twinge' when a thought or situation arises in the next couple of day's that the body connects with...whether it's thought/ego that's involved we need you to get more in touch with this if possible...

However, when I pay attention I can (although intermittently) see that thoughts are labelling other thoughts/previous thoughts and I can see that my seeing of it is in slight retrospect, that is just after the thought has happened, and not while it is happening.

This is good! it helps though to try and get a 'feel' for this body/thought connection in 'real time'; To see better how this concept of self has woven it's way throughout your thought patterns...

Still unsure about what to reply to this...looking kind of tapers off into a numbness/blankness and there is no answer that appears

This is interesting! Can you Elaborate more on this "numbness/blankness"?

[arora]

Hi Cam-RT
Got lost in head with work today, so instead of a quick reply, will try and explore better tomorrow.
Regards

[arora]

Hi Cam

tell me 'if' and 'where' in the body you feel a 'twinge' when a thought or situation arises in the next couple of day's that the body connects with...whether it's thought/ego that's involved we need you to get more in touch with this if possible...

Whenever i get a thought, mainly a negative thought or feeling, it seems like I can broadly categorise most of them as a 'sinking' or 'jelly-like' feeling in my stomach area, or sometimes an 'upwelling' in stomach area again accompanying an exciting thought. I dont seem to be able to feel different or fine responses to relatively minor everyday thoughts.

Still unsure about what to reply to this...looking kind of tapers off into a numbness/blankness and there is no answer that appears

This is interesting! Can you Elaborate more on this "numbness/blankness"?

What I meant there was that whenever I have tried to explore deeper this I/me or how I see it as a background awareness to thoughts, after gradual deepening for a little while, suddenly I seem to hit a brick wall so to speak and snap out of it. No answers, no motivation to continue, just snap out of the process and then go on to do something mundane or many times go to sleep.

I also noted you did mention earlier "you can use your body to track down thoughts that are associated with the self" which it seems I conveniently ignored, not understanding it. Would it be useful to get further explanation of it as well, in context of current topic?
Many thanks and regards
Arora

[Cam-RT]

Hello Arora :^)

Whenever i get a thought, mainly a negative thought or feeling, it seems like I can broadly categorise most of them as a 'sinking' or 'jelly-like' feeling in my stomach area, or sometimes an 'upwelling' in stomach area again accompanying an exciting thought.

There We go!...that's what we're looking at.

Keep sensing these signs, we can also check when it comes to other more obviously seen emotions like... impatience, frustration, anxiety, depression, of course anger and so on...maybe the jerk that slams on his brakes or yells profanities at you...Well you catch my drift here.

If someone calls you a "dirty so an so" What's there to be upset??

I see it as a background awareness to thoughts, after gradual deepening for a little while,

This is where I'm pointing at, What is it??

I also noted you did mention earlier "you can use your body to track down thoughts that are associated with the self" which it seems I conveniently ignored, not understanding it. Would it be useful to get further explanation of it as well, in context of current topic?

This is the process...Once experience happens...and you get that "feeling", mentally take a quick second look. What's the thought that spurred this feeling??....Then bring the thought up close and look at what's behind the thought...

Observe what happens when waking up in the morning, and just focus on looking for whether there is an "I" that wakes the body and brain, or whether it wakes on its own.

And when Arora go's about her daily routine does it require a "YOU" to perform these tasks or do they just happen on their own?

[arora]

Hi Cam
I haven't been able to get any deeper insights with the process, could be because of me not giving it enough time and intensity and getting carried away by routine problems of everyday.
I heard a teacher say couple of days ago in an interview- 'take a look at yourself, what it feels like to be you' and that did seem to take me deeper, although no 'aha' (i suppose subtly I am looking for an 'aha') but it seemed to stop the mind somewhat.
If I try to see that body and mind goes on about it business by itself, thought occurs that I might be using it as an escape mechanism (e.g. this bad stuff is not happening to me), instead of getting real taste of it.
It probably all sounds confused, which is the case anyway :)
By the way, Arora goes about 'his' daily routine.
Thanks for your patience with me Cam
Regards
Arora

[arora]

I should add that I am determined to keep trying :)

[Cam-RT]

Hello, Arora...

could be because of me not giving it enough time and intensity and getting carried away by routine problems of everyday.

You should be devoting this inquiry "in real time" and getting used to feeling the bodies response throughout your day...Especially if someone was to make rude remarks that makes you "Twinge"...Or thing that get on your your nerve, follow the feeling back, and see what's there behind the thought. These are perfect real time examples of testing what we are doing here...You need to challenge the mind and thoughts AS THEY HAPPEN...This "WORK" should be kept in the back of your mind ALL THE TIME!!!!

How much do you desire to see this??

'take a look at yourself,

What Self??.....There's nothing there!!

what it feels like to be you'

More like...What it feels like not to have a "YOU"!!... How about assuming there's no you AT ALL to refer to... What would that feel like??

(i suppose subtly I am looking for an 'aha')

This is not a magic pill, if you take a HONEST LOOK, and see this without a doubt that in fact "YOU" doesn't exist....YOU'RE DONE.

ALL THESE THOUGHTS THAT POINT INWARD TO A "YOU", WHERE IN FACT IN "REAL LIFE" IS THIS "YOU"??
NOT YOUR BODY OR YOUR BRAIN.....WHERE IS IT???????????????

thought occurs that I might be using it as an escape mechanism (e.g. this bad stuff is not happening to me)

Escape to where??......Life happens, good, bad, or indifferent...It all boils down to perception, perception, perception...from there it's label, label, label!!
It is what it is.....NOT WHAT IT SHOULD BE!!!<-------The mind tells you this.

By the way, Arora goes about 'his' daily routine.

Does this matter??
;^)