Just need a little push...

[pfWrep5ph9]

Ok, I'm back :) Honestly, there's so much in those messages, and I'm a bit overwhelmed. Many questions, and not sure where to look first. I think I need a narrower focus.

I'm looking at thought. Really looking. I didn't do that well enough before. Thoughts are weird. I notice it's like they're holographic, like every bit of a thought contains the entire thought. Sitting here, looking, really don't know what to say about them.

Things are clearer and at the same time more confusing. Maybe it's hard not doing things the usual way, without reasoning and philosophizing.

What I expect from awakening, well, my test, my benchmark, is whether I can look at anything where I used to see 'me' and not see 'me' anymore. Specifically, seeing thoughts arise and seeing them as just that, thoughts arising, impersonally. Seeing my hand move and seeing just that, a hand moving, not 'me moving my hand'. Like the notion of 'deliberately moving my hand' wouldn't be possible anymore. Don't know how to describe it. It's what I've seen once before.

Sorry, the combination of this and life's got me tired in this moment, and trying to look at everything at once. If there's one thing you suggest me to focus on, to really look at, I'd be grateful.

[Delma]

Hi Eli,

Let's look here:
"What I expect from awakening, well, my test, my benchmark, is whether I can look at anything where I used to see 'me' and not see 'me' anymore. Specifically, seeing thoughts arise and seeing them as just that, thoughts arising, impersonally. Seeing my hand move and seeing just that, a hand moving, not 'me moving my hand'. Like the notion of 'deliberately moving my hand' wouldn't be possible anymore. Don't know how to describe it. It's what I've seen once before."

So, that very last part is what's been missing all along. It seems you've had an Experience of No Self and are now looking to get it back and have it stick?

Is that right?

[pfWrep5ph9]

That sounds about right. Though who am I to say what the experience was. Was several months ago when I was attempting a spiritual autolysis sort of thing and worked through a lot of the questions in Gatecrashers. At some point I sat there looking at thought and saw that it was just little movies about my character bubbling up indifferently, impersonally. It seemed odd, cute in a way, made me giggle. I went into the kitchen afterwards and saw my body just walk around on its own, my hands and arms grabbing stuff to eat. My mind might have been going "wiii, I'm just along for the ride now! (But I'm still here! Shush)".

My wife and I were doing long distance for a few months then and I remember us having a fight the next day and me able to just listen and not take things too personally. But part of it was also like trying to live up to 'having seen', hoping it wouldn't slip. It only lasted a little bit.

When I went further, I started to see it as not cute or odd or giggly at all. Like the way the world works is completely orthogonal to what we value in the stories of our lives. It felt strange. Another clue that it wasn't 'no self' but just 'self in nature that does not have its interests'. And self that saw things and is now free self.

One thing's becoming clear thanks to you, is my big mistake has been trying to reason about what I'm supposed to see behind what I'm seeing directly and trying to see that, instead of just looking and finding out. If that makes sense. It's all a big mess, haha.

When my wife got back later, I let go of this unsettling inquiry and got comfortable being a 'normal human'. To be clear, I don't have these fearful thoughts now. During the autolysis I tried to imagine pretty fucked up things to snap me into the true nature of things or something, which I see now as spinning more stories. I bought into the Jed McKenna drama. I saw my normal life as a threat to figuring this out. As if my life story needed to change in order to learn to 'see'. It was also at a time when I had just changed my entire life, moving countries, being alone without my wife for a bit, new job, so there was just huge general discomfort I was projecting on everything. Sounds funny now, and glad I saw this before running for the mountains and hurting people. Now me and my wife love to talk about these thing together, looking together.

OK, that's that story. Ranting about this, maybe you'll spot the issue more clearly. So short answer is yes, sounds about right :)

[Delma]

Hi Eli. Thank you for explaining this. It actually changes things, though you may resist what I'm going to tell you.

What happened is that an experience of losing the character, the self, happened to the character. And now the character or self wants to bring it about again but can't. Ever. Because it has no control to do so.

Tricky little bastard, eh?

Read that again, if you would. The character wants to recreate an experience the character had.

And now the self has a nice little story about it.

What we're doing, Eli, is looking even beyond that. Because "Delma" has also experienced this disappearing act, but that's a diversion.

Listen carefully and inquire into this: The only thing that makes this eealization unshakeable, enduring, eternal, irrefutible as in "ONCE SEEN CANNOT BE UNSEEN" is the discovery that it is the truth of reality. And that every single time it's looked for, hunted, tested... it's utterly and absolutely true. The truth doesn't waver. The test never fails.

And... whoa. WTF? This thing is never, ever actually there no matter how many ways and times its looked for. Do you see how practical, trustworthy and solid that finding migh be? That it's the one thing that never fails? Ever.

Go ahead. Look for the self now. Where is Eli of the past? Where is the Eli who disappeared? Point to that Eli, the one who had the experience, and the one who is still trying.

Can you see how the trick of inquiry is to take one step back from where you THINK you've been looking from?

One step back. Look at the "I" and tell me who is looking.

[pfWrep5ph9]

Hey Delma. I was just writing the below to you as I got your reply, but wanted to share anyway. I read your reply and it's both 'nothing new' and a shock to the system at the same time. I'll be back once I took a good look.

---

I now see my first experience of no self, or whatever it was, was reached by belief. The big driver was reasoning about the mind, as an algorithm that produces thoughts impersonally. But it was just moving the ownership of the thought and body movement from one imagined entity to another. Which would create an illusion of no self, if that makes any sense. Surely there still was an idea of a self needing to keep the realization going, keep the eyes open. Not real seeing.

This morning after waking up, there was a lot of looking. What you said, how reality is right there underneath all that thinking about it, that got to me. Reality is really really simple. It's blobs of color, shades, sensations, noises, thoughts. Making anything of that, anything at all, is content of thought.

Stomach going up and down, sensation of air entering and exiting, the whooshing sound. It's just that. Then there's a label 'breath', a thought 'I am breathing'. And the thought itself is an object being labeled by thought. Label 'thought', thought 'I am thinking'.

If a thought appears as a phrase, why does it 'sound' like language. Why do the words mean anything. Because there's more interpretation, more thought, behind the content of the thought.

[Delma]

Ok. Stop thinking about thinking. I know it's your primary tool, but it's not helping !! 🤣

What about all those questions I've asked in the last post? Why are you passing them by? They are the actual exercises!

Ok. Cone back after inquiry and give me a report.

Thwak!!!

[pfWrep5ph9]

Hey now, no bypassing here! I said I'd be back with answers later and you said you were patient :p

Stop thinking about thinking

Right. Content of thought = not useful. I promise.

The truth doesn't waver. The test never fails.

Note to self, the test is:

Reality = awareness.

Object exists as awareness -> real

Object exists as content of thought but not as awareness -> not real

Look for the self now. Where is Eli of the past? Where is the Eli who disappeared? Point to that Eli, the one who had the experience,

Eli of the past is thought content. Even at the imagined time when that Eli lost its Eli, the Eli who had the experience was there. Eli who disappeared is also thought content.

and the one who is still trying.

This Eli also is not in reality.

Can you see how the trick of inquiry is to take one step back from where you THINK you've been looking from?

Yes, I see. You suggest to 'look for the I'. The body responds by just looking. The I thought comes in to take ownership of the looking. That's the I that should be looked at. Can't be looked at by thinking. Got to just look.

One step back. Look at the "I" and tell me who is looking.

This morning I spent a good amount of time, still, looking at this.

It started by using thought, and started infinite looping pretty fast. "Who's the I thinking this thought?" "And who's the I thinking this one" "And this one?" "And this one" "And this one". while making imagnary hops.

There was no choice but to drop thinking and just look.

Starting to understand why you said we need to go where thought can't go. This can't be done with thought.

Nothing, no I who is looking for the I either. That's the report so far.

[Delma]

Hi Eli.

Can you say more about reality = awareness?

Thank you!

[pfWrep5ph9]

Hey Delma :)

Can you say more about reality = awareness?

Awareness. Sitting here like a deer in headlights, trying to describe it. It's a collection of appearances, fused with a subjective experience of those appearances. To me, whatever shape or form I am, it's the sum total of direct experience of the world. It's literally all that appears. There's nothing else directly known. All of it can be noticed effortlessly.

Reality is all that's real. The appearances that make up awareness can not be denied. It's all right there. No issue seeing the laptop. I describe it to you with the label 'laptop', but take away the label, and there's still something there. The reality test is, if it appears in awareness, as form, not as content, it's real.

Hmm. How obvious is it I'm still confused? Don't like the photograph metaphor anymore. It just seems obvious, but formulating a clear rule is hard. It's either right there, as awareness, or it's not! If it's not, then the only way to know anything about it is by thinking.

I like this reality test now better: if all thought of it is taken away, does anything remain?

Laptop: take away thoughts about the laptop, there's still the buttons and the screen and the lights.

Me: take away thoughts about me, and I cease to be.

Yep, happier with this.

These messages take longer to write each time and less words come out.

[Delma]

Hi Eli. Thank you!

I'm nitpicking, but I want to understand why you say that it appears as or in awareness. That sounds like a spiritual teaching. Maybe. But be careful of thinking that awareness is a thing that something either transforms into or is something contains an appearance.

Anyway, what's holding you back? You seem to have the "right" answers. Are you used to getting good grades and high performance evaluations? This is actually a serious question. Because it could block things.

What is holding you back if all of your responses are correct? What are you not seeing?

Be honest. Dig deep and find the resistance.

Thank you!

[pfWrep5ph9]

I'm nitpicking, but I want to understand why you say that it appears as or in awareness. That sounds like a spiritual teaching. Maybe. But be careful of thinking that awareness is a thing that something either transforms into or is something contains an appearance.

I see it as a constant, eternal, still, dark, and umm... aware. Like the zero-level of appearance, if that makes sense. Appearances are modulations of this awareness. Like ripples on water. It's all water, appearances are fluctuations in that water.

Anyway, what's holding you back? You seem to have the "right" answers. Are you used to getting good grades and high performance evaluations? This is actually a serious question. Because it could block things.

I always identified more not as the straight A student, but the underdog smart guy who got better grades while not trying as hard as the nerds :) But I do rely heavily on external validation to know I'm doing something right. Maybe that's an issue.

What is holding you back if all of your responses are correct? What are you not seeing?

Be honest. Dig deep and find the resistance.

Kneejerk response: control. I've always had control issues. During this process I've noticed the self trying to do a freaking handover with the universe, to make sure everything would be okay once it was gone.

But I don't want to give kneejerk responses. And I know you don't want to get any, haha. Didn't have time to sit down and inquire today. Only had your questions on my mind as I went about my day. I really want to dig.

I'm going out of town with my wife for a few nights, to disconnect and enjoy some good walks. Will let things settle and sink in. Will be able to respond again on Thursday.

[Delma]

I'm nitpicking, but I want to understand why you say that it appears as or in awareness. That sounds like a spiritual teaching. Maybe. But be careful of thinking that awareness is a thing that something either transforms into or is something contains an appearance.

I see it as a constant, eternal, still, dark, and umm... aware. Like the zero-level of appearance, if that makes sense. Appearances are modulations of this awareness. Like ripples on water. It's all water, appearances are fluctuations in that water.

Anyway, what's holding you back? You seem to have the "right" answers. Are you used to getting good grades and high performance evaluations? This is actually a serious question. Because it could block things.

I always identified more not as the straight A student, but the underdog smart guy who got better grades while not trying as hard as the nerds :) But I do rely heavily on external validation to know I'm doing something right. Maybe that's an issue.

What is holding you back if all of your responses are correct? What are you not seeing?

Be honest. Dig deep and find the resistance.

Kneejerk response: control. I've always had control issues. During this process I've noticed the self trying to do a freaking handover with the universe, to make sure everything would be okay once it was gone.

But I don't want to give kneejerk responses. And I know you don't want to get any, haha. Didn't have time to sit down and inquire today. Only had your questions on my mind as I went about my day. I really want to dig.

I'm going out of town with my wife for a few nights, to disconnect and enjoy some good walks. Will let things settle and sink in. Will be able to respond again on Thursday.

Thanks for clarifying, Eli. Your first description of awareness is theoretical, no?

And as for control, you don't have it now, get there's no use trying to give it up, my friend. Want to test that? Do so on your couple of days off. See whether everything you do is due to either:

a) habit
b) circumstances coming together to create a path that looks like a decision

Enjoy yourself! (ha!)

[pfWrep5ph9]

Hey Delma,

I don't stop looking and it's becoming very frustrating. The few days away did some good. Realized I didn't get some of your hints before (duh).

About taking a step back from where I think I'm looking. The mind always seems to select where it thinks the I is, but as soon as that selection is observed, there's an 'observer' attached to that observing. Before it seems like I thought I had to pick the right selection. This means it's impossible to see the I almost by definition. If anything can be seen, there's a feeling of a seer seeing the seen.

I know, already so many good reasons to hit me with the stick. Humor me :p

At one point it seemed pretty obvious. Arms flapping around, sound of a voice ("my" voice) coming out of nowhere, thoughts appearing out of nowhere. The I's just this catchall idea of a source for all these things. Like there's cables attached to all these things, going under the curtain, and behind the curtain they're attached to a single controller. THERE IS NO BEHIND THE CURTAIN.

Looking closely, yes, thoughts come out of nowhere. I like the question "what's the souce of thought". The illusion was that the source was me. But where's the evidence of the decision to think the thought? If it's the self deciding to think the thought, shouldn't there be something preceding the thought? Another pile of turtles, but who cares! It's not there! I'm going into logic discussions about something that doesn't exist again. Thoughts really come out of nowhere. Voice starts making noises out of nowhere. Arms start moving out of nowhere.

How can this god damn mind be so stubborn. There's no I. It's not even a feeling of I. It's a feeling of ownership, by I, which is absolutely positively nothing. There's no I writing this. There's no I looking at the screen. There's no I frustrated as hell. There's no thinker of these thoughts about seeing the I.

Keep asking "is there an I here?". Keep looking, still, at things happening that have this feeling of ownership attached. Thoughts, movement, speech.

What's the resistance? So stuck. Is there too much fallback on thinking still? When you send me a new message, or now and then because of seeing something, there's a feeling of realization, of "aha". And then the self walks in and goes "whoa whoa, what did I miss? Alright, let me take over and apply the correct technique here". Yes, there's a sense of a need to "ask the right question", "look at the right thing, the right way".

There's no control, that's true. Is it habit or a something looking like a decision? Or option C, a magical fairy creature called a self that just wills it. It's not C.

I'm tired. But not giving up.

[Delma]

Hi Eli,

Who or what is having all if this trouble?

Welcome back!

[pfWrep5ph9]

Hey Delma!

Who or what is having all if this trouble?

ME! Character me. This helped me relax about the ongoing storyline a bit and look more openly. The urgency and the frustration. I'm giving it power. Or, the power that it has is an illusion.

The I from these storylines isn't here either. Not sure if that's something different, or more of the same. Is it? Another chain to break? One feeling on trial is that the hands typing this and the thoughts arising are owned by 'me'. Another is that the character in the storylines is me. Or it doesn't matter and it's all the same crap. Stop thinking, Eli! Point is it's not real!