Quest for true happiness

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Florisness
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Florisness » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:42 am

Hi there Tushar,
I don't know if it is completely clear, because in daily living the person keeps on arising. And to be honest I am still learning on how to dissolve the 'me'. Feel free to share any questions Floris, and we can check if there are any unclarities
Yes it's okay if the sense of being a person arises at points throughout the day. Being clear means that you are clear on or that you can confidently say that there is no self/separate entity and that there never was one.
Dissolving the 'me' is nice, but is something different than becoming clear on the fact of there not existing a self. This will be a process taking more time.

I'll just share the confirmation questions here. If you feel like you're up to them, you can take them. You could answer as much as you like, you could do it in 1 post, or in numerous. If you rather do some back and forths first before going to the questions, that's fine too. For example I could give you some more exercises, or we could just do more of the question and answers. However you want it!


Here are the questions, for if you decide you'd like to answer them:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

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Tushar
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Tushar » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:24 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no 'I' or ' me' present the way we have been taught to since our childhood. There is no separate self that exists that has to fulfill dreams, desires, ambitions and reach a certain point in life. But instead it can be said that there is an experience happening which is a combination of thoughts & sensations. This experience is rendered to the consciousness through a body/mind mechanism. But this body/mind mechanism is not a 'self' but a mechanism which helps have this experience. If the mind is silenced, experience still happens . There is no experiencer to a silent body/mind but just experience.

Seeing happens in the waking state, there is no seer. Hearing happens there is no hearer. Feeling happens there is no feeler. There is no central manager. Central Manager is a fiction of mind and self talk is nothing but mind talking.

This is how the experience has been always. There was a story associated with this body mind, which is kept alive by memories, by thoughts of past. When I look at my newborn, I find no person in him or outside of him.

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Florisness
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Florisness » Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:33 pm

Very nice reply! Looking forward reading more :-)

Enjoy your days

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Tushar
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Tushar » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:33 pm

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Illusion of separate self starts from the time one's brain starts learning from the instructions given by our parents. Our parents teach us language and almost the first word that we learn to fit in a sentence is 'I' . We are assigned a name and when we start associating with that name then we start believing in the fiction of a separate self. Everything that happens is associated with a doer, as if we are controlling our lives. When 'breathing happens' we say 'I am breathing', when 'seeing happens' we say 'I am seeing'. When in actuality all these activities are not controlled by a central manager and happens by itself. As soon as we wake up seeing happens , there is no individual seer which takes care of the seeing as soon as waking happens.

As I delve deeper I feel that all these are natural powers- the senses that our bodies have and we just assume them for nothing. What have we done to have all these senses, to have this experience. We have no answer. This makes me feel if we have no control on our senses and these senses just exist then how can we say we are controlling this life. This definitely shifts my thinking process and helps me see the illusion of a controller of life, which is non-existent.
I would say there is still a doubt that persists in the case of non-voluntary actions that are done, like for eg:- if somebody sets a goal to do exercise and works towards that goal, it still feels very personal because they would have not achieved their goal if they would have not focused on the goal. But then I think about all the situation that led someone choose a goal and pursue it, was that in someone's control. We can go back and see one situation leading to other and can eventually come to realisation that nothing is in anybody's control and life is just happening.

The illusion of separate self keep on building, but this illusion leads you to become disconnected with the magic of life. Because as per nature of life you are trying to always do more and as a separate self you may achieve, consume anything but you will never feel complete. Only when this illusion of being a separate self is removed you give your life a chance to feel itself again. To not limit yourself as a separate individual, you realise there are so many things which are not in your control but every bit of your existence is special. When you are very attached to the story it doesn't loosen the mental grip for you to experience life freely. Detachment from the story lets you surrender and live more in the present moment

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Florisness
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Florisness » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:06 pm

Nice ponderings, keep it coming! On your own pace.

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Tushar
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Tushar » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:16 pm

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It is more clearer that there is 'no self' in this living experience as has been believed to, since childhood. This clarity gives a lot more confidence that this whole discussion of 'no-self' in not mumbo-jumbo and can be cross checked again and again. I would not say that for me the experience has become much more lighter as lot of people before have reported. Still a lot of times when there is self talk, attention is being sucked to personhood. And it is only later that I try to cross question who is this entity doing self talk ? Who is this entity talking to ? If it is talking to itself is there a self? If a self is not found was it mind talking to itself? It becomes very difficult that over all this experience it was just my mind talking to itself. And thus there is still this understanding that I have not completely dissolved the 'self', if any. I leave the thoughts at that and not engage too much in them. I think there is still attachment to the story of a boy, of a son, of a husband etc.

Having said that this looking and questioning has become an important part of the living experience. And ensuring that nothing is assumed to be true, instead checking the truth each time. One more visible change I can see, there is a strong understanding of non-doership that has arisen. Earlier it would have been easy to think 'self' as a doer and give too much importance to this fiction. Also, there is a strong understanding that this imagined 'self' is not found in the dream state, and thus clarifying it even more that this 'self' is not true.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
When the understanding kicked in that as soon as I wake-up there is seeing that happens, but there is no 'seer' it sort of made me look things more clearly. It made me look how everything is coming out of awareness. This made me focus more on awareness which is 'silent' but constant. The "wiggling of fingers" was one of the exercises which I loved, when in doubt I still ask "Who is the wiggler?"
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
I don't know what makes things happen. Things are happening, there is a strong feeling that there is no controller. Things are just happening. There is also a strong feeling that by thinking that I am controlling my life, I am just creating a roadblock to let life flow. I have never been in control of things. Things happened and then they were labelled. In the heart it is known that whatever received was a gift, whether that made me feel good or bad. There is a strong sense of self.
How does it work?
What works, the happenings in this world? I don't know they are just happening. There is an experience happening because of awareness. The bodily senses are a gift and enabler of experience.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Responsible for 'nothing'. My actions are a function of reactions basis surroundings and conditioning of the mind. I am trying to let life be instead of controlling it. Really don't know what examples to give.
6) Anything to add?

There are a few questions which needs to be resolved. How does this sense of self originates? How to dissolve this ? What is this voice in the head, if it is mostly a fiction of brain why has many a times it has been felt to be so wise?

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Florisness
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Florisness » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:57 pm

It is more clearer that there is 'no self' in this living experience as has been believed to, since childhood. This clarity gives a lot more confidence that this whole discussion of 'no-self' in not mumbo-jumbo and can be cross checked again and again.
Good. Let's try to get this even clearer so that perhaps you don't have to doubt anymore. The questions might seem a little repetitive, but there seems to be a little left, so a little hunting might be beneficial.
Ps before starting to write answers this time, please read my last message

I would not say that for me the experience has become much more lighter as lot of people before have reported.
Oh that's fine, everyone's experience will be a little different.

Still a lot of times when there is self talk, attention is being sucked to personhood. And it is only later that I try to cross question who is this entity doing self talk ? Who is this entity talking to ? If it is talking to itself is there a self? If a self is not found was it mind talking to itself? It becomes very difficult that over all this experience it was just my mind talking to itself. And thus there is still this understanding that I have not completely dissolved the 'self', if any. I leave the thoughts at that and not engage too much in them. I think there is still attachment to the story of a boy, of a son, of a husband etc.
Yes the self talk will go on, although it will loosen up the more identification gets pulled out of all ideas. But that won't likely happen overnight
These questions are just trying to draw some attention to some aspects that perhaps could hide some identity or assumptions:
- is there such a thing as a mind?
- Where does the mind (or thought/thinking) belong to exactly?
- Does the body belong to anything?
- what or who did not completely dissolve the self yet, and who leaves the thoughts and that and doesn't engage too much in them?

Having said that this looking and questioning has become an important part of the living experience. And ensuring that nothing is assumed to be true, instead checking the truth each time. One more visible change I can see, there is a strong understanding of non-doership that has arisen. Earlier it would have been easy to think 'self' as a doer and give too much importance to this fiction. Also, there is a strong understanding that this imagined 'self' is not found in the dream state, and thus clarifying it even more that this 'self' is not true.
that sounds very good:)

I don't know what makes things happen. Things are happening, there is a strong feeling that there is no controller. Things are just happening. There is also a strong feeling that by thinking that I am controlling my life, I am just creating a roadblock to let life flow. I have never been in control of things. Things happened and then they were labelled. In the heart it is known that whatever received was a gift, whether that made me feel good or bad. There is a strong sense of self.
Good, no need to know how things happen, that answer is perfect.
can you hang your hat (where the words 'I' should refer to as used in the story above) anywhere 'in' experience? Is there still a sort of subtle belief that these words refer to some kind of entity/thing, that there might be such a thing?
Oh and btw, who's life is it?:)

There are a few questions which needs to be resolved. How does this sense of self originates? How to dissolve this ? What is this voice in the head, if it is mostly a fiction of brain why has many a times it has been felt to be so wise?
If wiggling fingers don't require a wiggler in order to properly wiggle, why should thinking require a thinker in order for proper thinking?

Your usage of the words 'I' and 'me' are fine, keep using them. I've just poked at it because it felt some subtle unlooked assumptions could be there.

For your next answers/responses, why don't you try writing without using the words I, me or mine? See how that feels


Wishing you the best,
Floris

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Tushar
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Tushar » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:46 am

Hi Floris,

Writing after a break as I thought it would be good to observe any changes in the experience of daily living.
Thanks for your immense support in the process, there is no worry present about being judged when conversing with you. Below are the replies of the questions in your last reply
- is there such a thing as a mind?
- Where does the mind (or thought/thinking) belong to exactly?
- Does the body belong to anything?
- what or who did not completely dissolve the self yet, and who leaves the thoughts and that and doesn't engage too much in them?
Mind is thoughts . In this experience there are thoughts, feelings and physical sensations. There is no entity as such to which this life belongs, this mind/thoughts belongs, this experience belongs. There is an experience that is happening. This body is enabling this experience. This body is, it doesn't belong to anybody, it is part of an experience.
Nobody dissolves the self, nobody engages in the thoughts. Thoughts appear, sense of self appear and all of this disappears after some time. If attention is not paid to them they just arise and then pass.
can you hang your hat (where the words 'I' should refer to as used in the story above) anywhere 'in' experience? Is there still a sort of subtle belief that these words refer to some kind of entity/thing, that there might be such a thing?
Oh and btw, who's life is it?:)
No there is nobody to hang the hat. Experience is. There is a story running in which a person is believed. Story is strong as there are people who are part of the story. Their presence brings the attention to story. Sense of self arise whenever there is interaction with any person or thoughts. But it subtly passes away as well. Having said that continuously rechecking helps to being the attention back from identity. But continuous rechecking doesn't happen as of now. It only happens when in touch with somebody or sometext explicitly talking about the emptiness/awareness. Otherwise attention remains in the story.

There is only life and life is. It doesn't belong to anybody, there is a deep sense of gratitude developing for life. As it truly is a gift.
If wiggling fingers don't require a wiggler in order to properly wiggle, why should thinking require a thinker in order for proper thinking?
There is no thinker, there are thoughts.

With Gratitude,
Tushar

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Florisness
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Florisness » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:08 pm

Hi Tushar
Writing after a break as I thought it would be good to observe any changes in the experience of daily living.
Thanks for your immense support in the process, there is no worry present about being judged when conversing with you. Below are the replies of the questions in your last reply
Good hearing from you again. That sounds good, and thank you much for sharing that.
Mind is thoughts . In this experience there are thoughts, feelings and physical sensations. There is no entity as such to which this life belongs, this mind/thoughts belongs, this experience belongs. There is an experience that is happening. This body is enabling this experience. This body is, it doesn't belong to anybody, it is part of an experience.
Nobody dissolves the self, nobody engages in the thoughts. Thoughts appear, sense of self appear and all of this disappears after some time. If attention is not paid to them they just arise and then pass.
Okay, this sounds like you 'found' a new clarity. Very nice:)
No there is nobody to hang the hat. Experience is. There is a story running in which a person is believed. Story is strong as there are people who are part of the story. Their presence brings the attention to story. Sense of self arise whenever there is interaction with any person or thoughts. But it subtly passes away as well. Having said that continuously rechecking helps to being the attention back from identity. But continuous rechecking doesn't happen as of now. It only happens when in touch with somebody or sometext explicitly talking about the emptiness/awareness. Otherwise attention remains in the story.
Very good to hear.
There is only life and life is. It doesn't belong to anybody, there is a deep sense of gratitude developing for life. As it truly is a gift.
Beautiful. Yes it is, you are that gift.

I'll post our conversations to some other guides to see if they want to confirm you or if they have a question for you.

Wishing you the best allways,
Floris

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Florisness
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Florisness » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:49 pm

Hi Tushar,

One of the other guides that read our thread likes me to ask this question to you.

In your earlier post you wrote:
"And thus there is still this understanding that I have not completely dissolved the 'self"

The question; Is the self now dissolved? Why is or isn't it?


Wishing you the best,
Floris

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Tushar
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Tushar » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:08 am

.The question; Is the self now dissolved? Why is or isn't it?
The voice in the head creates the strong illusion of a separate self, but somehow there is an understanding which has developed that this voice is not me but a story attached to this body-mind. Thus, there is a continuous play of a separate self that arises, and in moments where the body - mind is prone to action, attention is completely consumed by this story as well, but as time passes it becomes more clear that this story is not real and it is not the best definition of my experience

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Florisness
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Florisness » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:21 pm

Hi Tushar,

Sorry for my long time of not replying. I've been waiting for a response for other guides. I'll let you know more in a couple days. Hope you're doing well, and if there is anything you like to share, feel free to go at it:-)

Floris

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Florisness
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Florisness » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:08 pm

Hi Tushar,

As you can see, your name turned blue. That means that other guides confirmed you're clear/have seen through the belief of being a self. You'll get or already have received an email from an administrator, which will give you info for if you like to explore further or get support or something like it.

I wish you the best with whatever you do, it was nice to have written with you!
Floris

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Tushar
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Tushar » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:35 pm

Thanks Floris for the pointers

It would be great to keep touch

It's been a little long since we chatted, it gets a bit funny when mind says what have actually been achieved through all this and then a response comes " who is this speaking" and then silence ensues.

I will wait for any further mails, till that time I guess I will spend time reading various threads.

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Florisness
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Re: Quest for true happiness

Postby Florisness » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:27 pm

Thank you for your message. You are very welcome and thank you for the talk too.

By my knowledge, you should have already gotten an e-mail, so I'll write someone about it.

Wishing you well,


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