Synelg

[Synelg]

And having written that, it becomes clearer. In DE, when I touch Lucky, there's sensations, when I see him, there's colour, when I hear him, there's sound. Ditto for Nicole. Clear again.

[Vivien]

You see a body, a living organism, but not a Nicole.
You see a cat-body, a living organism, but not Lucky.

The problem is that sometimes you go way overboard, and you deny the existence of a body, a living organism. And all confusion comes from this.

Since the body as a living organism is there, denying it would be nihilism.

[Synelg]

You see a body, a living organism, but not a Nicole.
You see a cat-body, a living organism, but not Lucky.

Yes.

The problem is that sometimes you go way overboard, and you deny the existence of a body, a living organism. And all confusion comes from this.

Confusion comes in when there are questions like "Is there any experience of a body?", and the answer in DE is 'No'. And then that has to be reconciled with the statement above that there IS a body, a living organism.

Since the body as a living organism is there, denying it would be nihilism.

Yes, I want to agree with that, but how to reconcile with the fact that the only DE of the body is sensations and colour?

[Vivien]

Does the ‘thing’ called chair exist or not?
Does the ‘thing’ called body, exist or not?

[Synelg]

Does the ‘thing’ called chair exist or not?
Does the ‘thing’ called body, exist or not?

In direct experience, neither exist as a chair or a body - those are just labels.
But to survive in this apparent world, the concept of chair and body have to be accepted as existing.

Confusion.

[Vivien]

Synelg, you went overboard, you are making conclusions.

Are you sure that you looked carefully with my questions? Are you sure that you read it carefully?

Since I didn't ask about the labels. But about the 'thing' that those labels are attached to. So?

So are you saying that nothing exists at all?
What is the difference between reality/experience and thought/imagination?

If nothing exist, then what would need to survive and accept things as if they were exist?

[Synelg]

Are you sure that you looked carefully with my questions? Are you sure that you read it carefully?

I always read the questions Vivien. I'm trying so hard - nothing makes sense.

Since I didn't ask about the labels. But about the 'thing' that those labels are attached to. So?

But isn't the thing labelled chair just a colour in DE? So it exists as a colour in DE?

So are you saying that nothing exists at all?

I have no idea what I'm saying. Nothing makes sense.

What is the difference between reality/experience and thought/imagination?

In reality/experience the thing labelled chair doesn't exist except as a colour. Anything else is an imagination.

If nothing exist, then what would need to survive and accept things as if they were exist?

I don't believe that nothing exists. It can't be. But I'm trying to answer everything from DE and in DE the things labelled chair and body don't exist except as colours. Or do they now? Totally totally confused. And tears and thoughts that 'there's something wrong with me because I just can't get this'. And lots of sensations and things labelled tears. Shit shit shit.

And just realised that this has triggered one of the big stories of my life - that when I'm confused, there 'must be something wrong with me'. And 'I must be going mad'. It's a little relief to realise this, but still so confused.

[Synelg]

My apologies. Just got triggered and still confused. Will keep trying to see what I'm missing here. Sorry Vivien.

[Synelg]

The questions make no sense at the moment, and because of that there's much resistance to looking at them at all. So I'm trying to reduce looking to just something that I can attempt to make sense of. So at the moment it's:-

The problem is that sometimes you go way overboard, and you deny the existence of a body, a living organism. And all confusion comes from this.
Since the body as a living organism is there, denying it would be nihilism.
Does the ‘thing’ called body, exist or not?
Since I didn't ask about the labels. But about the 'thing' that those labels are attached to. So?

I believe that the thing called the body exists, but I can't reconcile that with statement a) below

a) When the exercises on 'body' were done, looking showed that there was no such 'thing' as the 'body' - that the sensations and colours were real – they were experienced, but 'body' couldn't be experienced and was therefore not real, didn't exist.

b) Now, body IS real, DOES exist, and to not see this is going too far and is nihilism..

Somewhere in between a) and b) there was somewhere to stop? Somewhere I went too far? Or perhaps there's something in statement a) that is incorrect.

I will keep looking at this to see where I've gone wrong.

[Vivien]

Dear Synelg,

Nihilism is a very bad place to be. Actually it’s a belief with the statement that nothing exists (except me – but this is often not seen). There is no world, no other bodies, not even this body, no objects, no chairs, no trees, nothing, everything is the product of ‘my mind’. Even if you don’t get to the conclusion that everything is just the product of ‘my mind’, it’s still unknowing implied, since something is going on. Something is happening, even if it’s just called sensations, colours, smells, tastes, sound and thoughts.

This is a very bad place to be, very unpleasant, I’ve been there (although just for 2 days), it’s not fun.

Just because we ARTIFICIALLY break up experience into 6 categories (sensation, sound, colour, taste, smell, thought), we don’t get to the INTELLECTUAL CONCLUSION that only these 6 artificially divided categories exist.

The ‘thing’ that is called chair exists, since it can be seen, it can be felt, it can be heard (when pulled), it’s even have some taste or smell.

Similarly, the body exists since it can be seen, heard, touched/felt, smelled, tasted.

We used the CONCEPT of ‘actual/direct experience’ just to distinguish between REAL/EXISTING things, and IMAGINED/thought-based things.

To make the distinction that although the body exist, it’s there, it’s breathing, moving, feeding, sleeping, etc., the self/me, which is imagined to be inside the body is not real. Since it’s cannot be experienced, it’s not there, it doesn’t exist, since it’s just the imagined.

This whole investigation is about seeing what CAN be EXPERIENCED, and what can’t.

With the body exercise, we don’t make the INTELLECTUAL CONCLUSION that since because all there is to the body is sensations and images/colours, therefore the body doesn’t exist. No, not at all. If this were true, we wouldn’t have to go to hospital in case of an injury. There wouldn’t be a need to eat, drink, eliminate, sleep.

Can you see that you went too far, and made some intellectual conclusion based on the experience of the body being experienced as sensations and images/colours?

Vivien

[Synelg]

HUGE relief!

I'm pretty sure I didn't go too far Vivien. Quite sure I'm not nihilistic. I think I just take everything you ask me to do literally and answer EVERYthing from DE.

Relief relief relief.

I will read everything we've talked about lately again carefully and I will make sure of what I'm saying above. But HUGE HUGE relief.

THANKYOU :) :) :)

(The last days have been horrible - stories coming thick and fast. It's been a great exercise for practising allowing emotions and using blah blah though lol)

Thankyou thankyou thankyou xx

[Vivien]

You might benefit from watching this scientific documentary about reality and the brain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8k-lrJrldw

For some reason the link doesn't start at the beginning of the documentary, but watch the whole thing from the beginning.

[Synelg]

My link started at the beginning Vivien. It was a good documentary - I love this stuff - I've enjoyed telling people that colour doesn't exist for years lol. If I had my time again, I'd be a neuroscientist/psychologist lol.

I see David Eagleman has more on YouTube. YAYAYAY! Thankyou :)

[Synelg]

Isn’t Synelg is just a word?

Yes. Just a word. Helpful in identifying a particular body.

Just because the body is labelled with a thought ‘synelg’, does that label makes the body into a real synelg?

No - synelg doesn't exist - it's a label, but the thing labelled body exists and the body labelled synelg exists.

Can you see that words are just labels, just words nothing else?

Yes. Body is a label. Nicole is just a label for a particular body. That body exists and it's labelled Nicole.

Even the word ‘body’ is just a label on sensations, isn’t it?

Yes. And Nicole is a label on a particular body.

The word ‘body’ is an English word. But in Hungarian the body is labelled ‘test’. And in Spanish, it’s labelled as ‘cuerpo’.

So do these labels make the raw sensations into a body, test or cuerpo?

No. They are just labels for the sensations. And Nicole is a label for a particular group of sensations labelled cuerpo.

By the way, most people believe that their names are not the body, but the self inside the body. So you believe that the body is synelg, why others might believe that the self inside the body is synelg. But it’s just a belief either case.

And if your parents would have given you a different name, like Clara, then these same sensations would be a Clara?

No - those sensations would have been given the label of Clara. The 'body', or group of sensations called Clara would exist.

Can you see that this is nothing else than a play with thoughts? Just words? Or more precisely just sounds?

Yes. We call a group of sensations a 'body', and a particular body can be labelled Nicole. Instead of saying "Look, over there is a body", we can then say "Look, over there is Nicole". That thing labelled body exists and is labelled Nicole.

Does the word ‘chair’ makes that ‘thing’ into a chair?

No, the word 'chair' is a label for a thing. And a particular 'thing' can be labelled 'Nicole'. 'Nicole' doesn't exist - it's a label for a particular 'thing'.

Or the ‘thing’ is just what is, and ‘chair’ is nothing else than a concept about that ‘thing’?

Yes, chair is a concept about a thing. Nicole is a concept about a particular thing.

[Synelg]

After I wrote the above post, there was a HUGE reaction. I wish I'd written about it then, because it appears to be gone now and it's difficult to remember exactly what the reactions were. It was a realisation that because synelg isn't the body, then thoughts and sensations REALLY DO APPEAR TO NO-ONE! There's no synelg INSIDE the body, there's no synelg outside the body, and synelg ISN'T the body. Synelg is just a label on a bunch of sensations and thoughts. The realisation that synelg is just a label also - I thought that was just a little 'I get it' moment, but it proved to be big after I'd written the post.

There was a LOT of disorientation and a sort of disbelief and thoughts that maybe I'd have to start this process all over again. But today it's been really hot here - too hot to do anything and so there's been a LOT of looking and the disorientation and the reactions that went with it appear to have become more business as usual.