Stop feeling bad and realizing the ultimate truth

[Search1207]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have read quite a lot on this subject. Through meditation on and off I have experienced the state of self but this state is transitory and when I deal with person related problems, I am back to being my mind

What are you looking for at LU?
To be free of my thoughts/mind. I experienced self a few times but it is transitory and I am back to my personhood, my mind and thoughts. There was a phase in life when I thought that I am the self but because of domestic issues I am back to square one

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To help me be out of the trivial person related issues and realize who I truly am. I currently get tied up with my mind and thoughts, even when I am in my thoughts, I realize that this is not what I am but the pull is so strong that I can't help it

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been on spiritual path for last 15 years but was introduced to the truth 2 years back. I have been meditating for 2 years . Whenever I meditate regularly and there are no person related external issues around me , I am able to realize self; other times I am again a miserable being

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[ratnapani]

Hi search 1207
Can you do zoom chat with me to look at some some basics?
Steve xx

[Search1207]

Hi Steve,

Thank you for your reply. I don't have zoom chat with me. If you are comfortable, we can converse via email. Please let me know

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

Oops I hadn't ticked the box for email notification of your posts. Have you ticked it? I'll get back later and we can 'look at some basics' here.
Steve. x

[ratnapani]

Hi there,
It's Christmas so without too much technical stuff have you read the notes on posting and use of the quote function ?
Meanwhile I expect you will have seen -" Liberation unleashed is here to help you see through the illusion of a separate self;"
With that in mind could you describe what the experience is when you say

Through meditation on and off I have experienced the state of self

You would like

To be free of my thoughts/mind.

Apart from a chemically induced coma there will always be thoughts but the question is 'are they 'me'. ? Do 'I' have to believe them? As to mind, there is no such 'thing' which releases a whole load of tension but we'll probably need to go one small step at a time.

To help me be out of the trivial person related issues and realize who I truly am.

If you want marriage guidance then my advice is to ask yourself the question " what do they need right now " However, I hope we can discover the freedom of 'I truly am not anything. ' ! That was a backwards desire to be special or rather, 'spiritual'.

I am able to realize self; other times I am again a miserable being

Like I said I don't get this realise self bit but the first step in no longer creating the suffering of desire/aversion/ fear is seeing that there is actually no one home who can do that.

This looking at your experience that I hope you can do is not about getting into any particular state. It is simply seeing what is and most especially what is not. I started 'doing states' in 1971, it passed the time!

Steve xx

[Search1207]

. Hi there,
It's Christmas so without too much technical stuff have you read the notes on posting and use of the quote function ?
Meanwhile I expect you will have seen -" Liberation unleashed is here to help you see through the illusion of a separate self;"
With that in mind could you describe what the experience is when you say

Hi Steve

Thanks for your reply
Merry Christmas!! I hope you had a good one 😊
Yes i have read the notes on posting and use of quote function
Agree, I am expecting LU to help me see through the illusion of separate self

When I say that through meditation I have experienced state of self on and off, I mean that when I meditate regularly for a few days, my mind becomes quieter. Even with a few thoughts coming and going, I am still in a peaceful state wherein I am aware that I am not these thoughts and I am ok with the thoughts crossing my mind. I am not controlling my mind in this state, infact I let it be.

Apart from a chemically induced coma there will always be thoughts but the question is 'are they 'me'. ? Do 'I' have to believe them? As to mind, there is no such 'thing' which releases a whole load of tension but we'll probably need to go one small step at a time.

Frankly speaking, it feels that the thoughts belong to ‘me’. I have tried to find a listener to the thoughts, I have never found one. I understand that I am not my thoughts but the thoughts feel to be very intimate and there is a deep sense of belongingness associated with the thoughts.
Do I have to believe in thoughts- not believing in thoughts is more like rejecting them and my thoughts become more powerful when I try to reject them or ignore them. Being attentive to thoughts makes me more engaged with the thoughts and story
To me, mind indeed feels like a tension/ thought releasing machine

If you want marriage guidance then my advice is to ask yourself the question " what do they need right now " However, I hope we can discover the freedom of 'I truly am not anything. ' ! That was a backwards desire to be special or rather, 'spiritual'.

It is regarding my marriage however not my husband, but my in-laws.
What do they need right now- being involved in their story, engaging with them on a ‘person’ level. I am usually not concerned about what they want from me emotionally however there are certain times I want things my way and that creates tussle and I am unwantedly involved in the story. Once I am involved in the story, its a vicious circle of blame game and I am stuck in it. I can observe my thoughts in this stage however the thoughts are too strong to control them or let them be. It feels that some action needs to be taken for the ‘injustice’ and the story in my mind keeps evolving and changing its future outcomes. At this stage, observing the thoughts becomes a challenge and there is a feeling of suffocation

Yes I want to permanently realise who I truely am/ I am not. This constant observation of thoughts is very tiring and seems endless. When I ask question who is looking for thoughts, I don’t get an answer and there is a stillness, however constantly questioning thinker/seer/ listener of the thoughts again and again also seems endless

Would love to hear about your experience of realising the ‘am’

Kind regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Oops that posted itself!

Sit quietly in a chair for 15 mins and be aware of the body.

Is it known how tall it is?
Is it known how heavy it is?
Is it known where body ends and the chair begins?
Is it known what gender it is?
Are you aware of an inside and an outside?

Please let me know what you find in answer to those questions


Meanwhile might I suggest a new title for this enquiry ?

"Stop feeling bad about feeling bad and seeing just what is" (:

Also, if there is conflict arising in life please don't forget your own heart. How is it and what does it need?

Steve x

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenham,

Things have got back to front !

Christmas was fine if a bit excessive.

Thanks for your reply. You have obviously been looking at thought quite a bit and it's great that they do sometimes go quiet enough to be left alone.
But then back they come so let's leave thought alone for a bit or we'll end up in the bottomless pit of thinking about thinking!

This is part 1,
Steve, x

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

Thank you for your reply

Thanks for your reply. You have obviously been looking at thought quite a bit and it's great that they do sometimes go quiet enough to be left alone.
But then back they come so let's leave thought alone for a bit or we'll end up in the bottomless pit of thinking about thinking!

Leaving thoughts alone feels relaxing, however after a few seconds, mind starts looking for other thoughts. Also there is a thought asking how long would this silence remain, questioning if this silence will remain even when there are issues going on in external world.

Sit quietly in a chair for 15 mins and be aware of the body.

Is it known how tall it is?
Is it known how heavy it is?
Is it known where body ends and the chair begins?
Is it known what gender it is?
Are you aware of an inside and an outside?

Please let me know what you find in answer to those questions

I can’t measure my body but I am aware of my body from head to toe. There is a sensation I can feel as an outline of the body

I don’t know the weight but I can feel the heaviness of the body when I give attention to different body parts

Wherever the body touches the chair, it feels that the particular body part and chair have merged in one

Through conditioning I know the gender of the body and mind quickly rushes to answer this.

With open eyes, I am see an outside and thus I can distinguish between inside and outside. With eyes closed, I can sense my body, that feels inside and air on my skin feels like outside

Meanwhile might I suggest a new title for this enquiry ?

"Stop feeling bad about feeling bad and seeing just what is" (:

Also, if there is conflict arising in life please don't forget your own heart. How is it and what does it need?

Whenever there is a conflict, I prefer to end the relationship so that there is no conflict thereafter, however this comes from anger and with time I realise that leaving was actually not a good option.
Thus I am not sure where does mind stop and heart begins. How do I know what does my heart wants.

Kind regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam, (no H this time!)

That was quick! (:

It sounds like " no thoughts - good meditation " "thoughts - bad meditation" That will create conflict, what arises arises.

Ok, good start with the exercise, it's well worth repeating it.

I am aware of my body from head to toe.

Is there an experience of 'head'? Is there one of 'toe' ? Or are those terms actually thoughts?

I can feel the heaviness of the body

Is 'heaviness' an actual experience or a label added to a sensation?

Wherever the body touches the chair, it feels that the particular body part and chair have merged in one

Aha ! Great, you are not adding the separation. Is there actual experience of merging though?

Through conditioning I know the gender of the body and mind quickly rushes to answer this

Maybe just take your time, rest in ordinary experience, notice mind rushing in and then see what actual experience has to 'say'.

Similarly with the conclusion that air on the skin indicates a separation between inside and outside.

Let's pursue this enquiry for a while and then anger can be looked into in the same way.

Mind and heart are only working concepts but with hand on the heart centre you can ask 'heart are you at peace?' and wait for an answer. If the answer is 'no' you can also ask 'what do you need to be at peace?'
I do that live on zoom with a few people.

Steve.x

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

Thank you so much for your reply.

Please see my response

It sounds like " no thoughts - good meditation " "thoughts - bad meditation" That will create conflict, what arises arises.

Yeah that’s right. It’s like no thoughts means good meditation and thoughts means bad meditation. Agree, I need to be comfortable with what arises arises

Is there an experience of 'head'? Is there one of 'toe' ? Or are those terms actually thoughts?

There is no experience of head and toe. However with closed eyes, when I place my attention on head and toe, I can sense a head and toe, similar to my hands and fingers while I am typing.
With open eyes, I can see various body parts, thus I know the existence of those body parts - though I can’t experience these body parts till I place my attention on them.

Is 'heaviness' an actual experience or a label added to a sensation?

Heaviness might be an incorrect word, but it’s more like some tightness that I feel in my stomach, chest, shoulders when I place my attention on these body parts. When I say to myself that tightness is also a label, something relaxes in the body and body feels lighter. When I say lightness is just another label and I look for heaviness/tightness , I can’t find it. There is only a sensation that remains

Aha ! Great, you are not adding the separation. Is there actual experience of merging though?

No, there is no actual experience of merging. Initially there is an experience of touch. But after a while it just is

Maybe just take your time, rest in ordinary experience, notice mind rushing in and then see what actual experience has to 'say'.

When I notice mind rushing in, there are other thoughts directing towards the body parts that determine gender. When I observe those thoughts and body parts for a while, there is a blankness and then mind rushes to say that sleep is coming.
On repeating this exercise and looking for sleep, I can’t find sleep but there is a feeling of headache/nervousness/agitation.
On repeating this exercise and looking for headache/nervousness/agitation,I can’t find them and there is blankness but again mind rushes to say that you won’t realise ‘no separate self’ without these repetitive exercises and that this blankness is temporary

Similarly with the conclusion that air on the skin indicates a separation between inside and outside.

With closed eyes, there is a silence, there is no answer to whether there is something called inside and something called outside. The sounds I hear also feels like part of me
With open eyes, all the things except my body are outside and my body is inside

Let's pursue this enquiry for a while and then anger can be looked into in the same way.

Yes, sure. This exercise has put me to peace and the mind says that anger won’t appear in this peaceful state, I need to test it when I am actually angry about something

Mind and heart are only working concepts but with hand on the heart centre you can ask 'heart are you at peace?' and wait for an answer. If the answer is 'no' you can also ask 'what do you need to be at peace?

Thank you so so much for the guidance. I will try it in case of conflicts. Currently I feel so much at peace that I won’t get any answers for these questions 😊
However the mind keeps saying that this is only a transient phase, it will fade away as soon as reality of life will strike back

Kindest regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

Ok, that's a good start. We are on the look out for what is direct experience here and what is added afterwards.

However with closed eyes, when I place my attention on head and toe, I can sense a head and toe

There may be sensations 'there and there' but is there an experience of 'a head' or 'some toes' ?

Do the typing fingers belong to anyone ? (:

Heaviness might be an incorrect word, but it’s more like some tightness that I feel in my stomach, chest, shoulders when I place my attention on these body parts. When I say to myself that tightness is also a label, something relaxes in the body and body feels lighter. When I say lightness is just another label and I look for heaviness/tightness , I can’t find it. There is only a sensation that remains

It sounds like you are making it into a meditation practice !

With eyes closed --
The question is when bum is on seat is weight known in direct experience?
Feet are on floor and head may be on chair back, is height known in direct experience?

When I notice mind rushing in, there are other thoughts directing towards the body parts that determine gender. When I observe those thoughts and body parts for a while, there is a blankness and then mind rushes to say that sleep is coming.
On repeating this exercise and looking for sleep, I can’t find sleep but there is a feeling of headache/nervousness/agitation.
On repeating this exercise and looking for headache/nervousness/agitation,I can’t find them and there is blankness but again mind rushes to say that you won’t realise ‘no separate self’ without these repetitive exercises and that this blankness is temporary

Mmmm, that sound like resistance, Mental activity, nervousness/agitation and dullness.
Good ! 'Something somewhere' is scared that if you get this it won't ever be the same. All you have to do is keep looking with curiosity and kindness.

With closed eyes, there is a silence, there is no answer to whether there is something called inside and something called outside. The sounds I hear also feels like part of me

Aha, great, thought didn't make up an answer and separation between imaginary self and other softened.
Do keep looking in this way.

Mental states will come and go for sure but this is not about achieving particular mental states. In fact the penny can drop under any circumstances when you look.

Steve, x

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

Thank you for your reply

Please see my observations

There may be sensations 'there and there' but is there an experience of 'a head' or 'some toes' ?

Yes there are sensations of there and there but there is no experience of some toes. However with head, it feels that there is a great deal of brain and mind activity happening in the place where ‘head’ is

Do the typing fingers belong to anyone ? (:

Through experience, Not sure if typing fingers belong to anyone. There are thoughts which says that the typing happens through brain activity and that answers how fingers type but does it belong to anyone, I am not sure. But again Mind is not convinced with this answer, mind says that because I have read a lot of books on this subject, I know the answer is ‘no-one’ but I have no experience of it. Also mind says that typing fingers must belong to someone, because in case a finger is lost, there is no life in that lost finger and only till is attached to the body, it has life.

It sounds like you are making it into a meditation practice !

With eyes closed --
The question is when bum is on seat is weight known in direct experience?
Feet are on floor and head may be on chair back, is height known in direct experience?

Weight and height are not known in direct experience, there are just sensations

Mmmm, that sound like resistance, Mental activity, nervousness/agitation and dullness.
Good ! 'Something somewhere' is scared that if you get this it won't ever be the same. All you have to do is keep looking with curiosity and kindness.

On repeating this exercise, gender of the body is not a experienced, there are just sensations through out the body

Aha, great, thought didn't make up an answer and separation between imaginary self and other softened.
Do keep looking in this way.

Mental states will come and go for sure but this is not about achieving particular mental states. In fact the penny can drop under any circumstances when you look

On repeating this exercise, sounds I hear do feel a part of me, but there is a question that these sounds are heard by everyone who is within a certain distance from where sound is created, so how are they a part of me. And if they are a part of me, can I control them?

Also how would it be known that ‘ no separate self’ has been realised. For past few days I am feeling a lot more at ease with thoughts , thoughts do come and go but they are less sticky. insecurities are still there but they also feel less ‘mine’. However I have become more restless, it feels that i am entering an unknown territory and I need to test it in various circumstances to be sure of it. There is a fear that I might be so lost in present that I will stop planning for future.

I know that my answers have started making less and less sense with each post :!

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

Weight and height are not known in direct experience, there are just sensations

Great !

You are saying more about thought than direct experience generally so let's look at that.
Would you write two lists stream of consciousness style 1 what you hope for in this inquiry and
2. what you fear from this enquiry.
Don't hold back or censure anything!

Steve x

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

I hope you are doing well

Please see my response

1 what you hope for in this inquiry
-To realise who I truely am and be unaffected by the person related issues
-To be unaffected by the constant rising of thoughts

2. what you fear from this enquiry.
-That I might become complacent, loose vigor to strive for excellence
-I might not be able to connect to other people (which happens now as well because I have lost interest in discussing emotional issues with other people)
-I might stop planning for future ( because I would stop worrying for future)
-I might stop enjoying life, loving, laughing
-I might be unable to protect myself when someone attacks me ( physically, emotionally, verbally)
-I might stop caring for other people
-I might become non responsive
-I might appear to be sad and lonely
-I might become like a baby who is in their own world, unaware of other people’s ill-intentions
-People might stop talking to me, loving me, caring for me
-My world might look like a solitary confinement where I am cutoff from the real world

Regards
Seenam