Awakent

[Verananda]

so then have a look again to the image with the illusion of the old/young woman.

Tell me (a bit more detailed) about
what is the direct experience
and what is thought in this moment?

[Abner]

Tell me (a bit more detailed) about
what is the direct experience
and what is thought in this moment?

Direct experience is seeing one face,
thought is thinking about the other, at
the same time.

[Verananda]

without knowing what a "face" is (no matter if it is old or young) what do you see?

[Abner]

Hi,Ve


without knowing what a "face" is (no matter if it is old or young) what do you see?

Just color/ black&white on paper...thats only
If I knew what paper is!

[Verananda]

yes.

so "knowing what a face is" or "what paper is paper" is that direct experience or thought?

is the direct experience more than color/ black&white lines/shapes?

[Abner]

so "knowing what a face is" or "what paper is paper" is that direct experience or thought?

Knowing what a face/paper is, is just thought

is the direct experience more than color/ black&white lines/shapes?

Direct experience is only: color/ black&white lines/shapes?
If you knew the object, from thought...would
that be total experience?

[Verananda]

Direct experience is only: color/ black&white lines/shapes?

is this a statement or a question ?!

If you knew the object, from thought...would that be total experience?

total experience?!?!
is that direct experience or thought? or something new?

or is that more like "beein a bit pregnant" to not face the facts?

when the "perception" (or interpretation?) changes from old women to young women to old women ...
does the experience itself (the color/ black&white lines/shapes) change in any way?

Love Ve

[Abner]

Direct experience is only: color/ black&white lines/shapes?
is this a statement or a question ?!

I copied and pasted, those words from you
and forgot to take out the question mark.
So its a statement

If you knew the object, from thought...would that be total experience?

I just made that up because I wasnt sure if
recognition (thought) could be included in direct
experience even though my instincts tell me no.



or is that more like "beein a bit pregnant" to not face the facts?

Exactly...perfict anology!

when the "perception" (or interpretation?) changes from old women to young women to old women ...
does the experience itself (the color/ black&white lines/shapes) change in any way?

No..its the same color, lines and shapes, but only
perceived differantly.

[Verananda]

I just made that up because I wasnt sure if
recognition (thought) could be included in direct
experience even though my instincts tell me no.

well direct experience is what is alive experience here and now but not thought.
and we find this out not by definition or instinct but by LOOKING.
When we want to know what is pure experience but not thought, thought would not help to solve the mystery.
right?

No..its the same color, lines and shapes, but only
perceived differantly.

so then what does it mean "perceived differantly"? Is that experience that is different or thought that is different?

[Abner]

When we want to know what is pure experience but not thought, thought would not help to solve the mystery.
right?
Right

Im not trying to be smart but arent knowing:
shapes, lines, and colors...THOUGHT

so then what does it mean "perceived differantly"?
Seen/sensed differantly

Is that experience that is different or thought that is different?

Not sure...

[Verananda]

Im not trying to be smart but arent knowing:
shapes, lines, and colors...THOUGHT

well when you name it "shapes, lines, and colors" this is a label and that is part of thought but we need it to communicate here.
otherwise you couldn't tell me about ....

but
without these labels, without naming it "shapes, lines, and colors" there is seeing of it, right?
there is this direct experienc even if you have not words for it or do know nothig.
right?
that is direct experience.

so then what does it mean "perceived differantly"?
Seen/sensed differantly
realy?
before you said: "No..its the same color, lines and shapes."
does what is seen change?

[Abner]

but
without these labels, without naming it "shapes, lines, and colors" there is seeing of it, right?

Yes...seeing something

there is this direct experienc even if you have not words for it or do know nothig.
right?
Yes


so then what does it mean "perceived differantly"?
Seen/sensed differantly
realy?
before you said: "No..its the same color, lines and shapes."

Not sure...confused!

does what is seen change

Yes...young to old...even if you dont know
old/young from thought...

[Verananda]

Not sure...confused!

LOOOOOK!!!
Don't think!
confusion is thought.
its welcome, it shows old beliefs are mixed up .....
then LOOOOOK!!!

does what is seen change
Yes...young to old...even if you dont know
old/young from thought...

realy?
has any line or color changed?

[Abner]

realy?
has any line or color changed?

The lines and colors...havent changed
they are still the same only perception changed

[Verananda]

what is perception?

can you experience "perception"?