Awakent

[Verananda]

ok, good to look into it a bit deeper ....

is heart beat & breathing itself an experience or is it a label (Thought) for what is experienced ("raw" sensation)?
I dont know

It is not about knowing, it is about "looking" for what is alive experience here and now.
So if you put aside everything you know about heart, body, anatomy, what they told you in school and what you think you now or remember or what you remember about your experience yesterday .......

Does the here and now experience of "heard beating" say anything more about heart, beat, body, ...?
Is this pure alive experience that you can sens/feel more than sensation?
check it in your experience not by thinking about!

I see/experience a different face.
is this a direct experience or a thought?
Both

does the seeing itself say anything about face?
is the pur seeing more than color and form/lines?

[Abner]

Does the here and now experience of "heard beating" say anything more about heart, beat, body, ...?
No
Is this pure alive experience that you can sens/feel more than sensation?
No...It is just a sensation


I see/experience a different face.
is this a direct experience or a thought?
Both
does the seeing itself say anything about face?
No
is the pur seeing more than color and form/lines?
No

[Verananda]

ok, so there IS a alive experience/sensation.
it is not "nothing"
but everything that is added like "heart beating, breathing..." is a THOUGHT about that pur experience.


there IS a alive experience/seeing of color and form/lines.
it is not "nothing"
but everything that is added like "face, women, old, young, changing perception" is a THOUGHT about that pur experience.

do you agree with that (not from thought, I mean from 100% of "your" experience)?

[Abner]

Yes, I agree, there are "thoughts" about the "experience"

[Verananda]

ok, lets do another exercise ..

Take a cup, put it in front of you on a table and look at it.
What is there from "pur seeing"/direct experiencing?

Can you see certain colors?
Can you see certain forms?
Can you see what the material of the cup is?
Can you see an opening?
Which form/shape does the opening has?
Can you see a cup?

[Abner]

Can you see certain colors?
Yes
Can you see certain forms?
Yes
Can you see what the material of the cup is?
No...not just by looking, I would have to touch it
If I touched it, the answer would be yes
Can you see an opening?
Yes
Which form/shape does the opening has?
It is circular ( round )
Can you see a cup?
Yes

[Verananda]

Can you see what the material of the cup is?
No...not just by looking, I would have to touch it
If I touched it, the answer would be yes

ok, touch it.
and then tell me if the pure experience is more than sensation?
does the sensation say anything of what the material of the cup is?


Can you see an opening?
Yes

how do you know from pure seeing that it is an opening?
is seeing more than color/form/shape?


Which form/shape does the opening has?
It is circular ( round )

realy?
do you know it is round? (like you saw an old/young lady in the illusion picture)
what is the pure seeing?

Can you see a cup?
Yes

how do you know that it is a cup?
if you never had seen a cup before .... could you know it from pure seeing?
is seeing more than color/form/shape?

[Abner]

and then tell me if the pure experience is more than sensation?
It is only sensation
does the sensation say anything of what the material of the cup is?
No

Can you see an opening?
Yes

how do you know from pure seeing that it is an opening?
From pure seeing..without a history, I wouldnt know
is seeing more than color/form/shape?
No

Which form/shape does the opening has?
It is circular ( round )

realy?
do you know it is round? (like you saw an old/young lady in the illusion picture)
Same ans as above
what is the pure seeing?
Seeing without judgement

Can you see a cup?
Yes

how do you know that it is a cup?
if you never had seen a cup before .... could you know it from pure seeing?
No
is seeing more than color/form/shape?

[Verananda]

realy?
do you know it is round? (like you saw an old/young lady in the illusion picture)
Same ans as above

please dont write "Same ans as above"
thats not clear for me what you exactly mean .....
better you repeat in such case ....

what is the pure seeing of what you call "opening"? what shape/form does it have?

[Verananda]

sorry, it seems that it does not work with the pictueres I included

look here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sr5p656kcz10h ... r.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zlchjqjbv1119uh/cup.png?dl=0

[Abner]

is seeing more than color/form/shape?
No

[Abner]

realy?...realy what?
do you know it is round? (like you saw an old/young lady in the illusion picture)
Without a history of "roundI wouldnt know

what is the pure seeing of what you call "opening"? what shape/form does it have?
From your 1st picture, pure seeing, I could
not tell the shape.

Your second picture, because you drew the
red around the circumfrence...I could tell
the shape...round.

[Abner]

Tomorrow I am going to reread all of our posts,
I think that will help.

[Verananda]

how would you call this shape?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbln6l088ygq1 ... g.png?dl=0

[Verananda]

Tomorrow I am going to reread all of our posts,
I think that will help.

yes, thats good,
and also to LOOK continously in your daily life fpr what we did here as exercises ... it is not an exercise ... you can Look wherever you are .....