Requesting assistance

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

And can you see that the me-thought is not different from any other ideas/concepts? That the me-thought is also just an added extra (by thoughts) overlaying (on top of) the immediate experience? That the ‘me’ is just a thought narration? Nothing more?

Yes, this is apparent.

Is there any doubt that it might be otherwise?

No.

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it completely clear that there is no I/me choosing or deciding?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual real “me.”
Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings?

Whom does the "story of me" belong to?
Is there a creator of story, separate from the story itself?

And what about the character Brett? What is telling the story about Brett?
And how does Brett differ from Batman?

Imagine both sitting on the sofa and having a conversation.

And where are the characters when you stop Imagining them?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no such thing a chooser?

Yes. Choices are happening, not being chosen.

Is it completely clear that there is no I/me choosing or deciding?

Yes.

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?

Yes.

When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual real “me.”

Yes, this is what is seen. And why it can be so confusing, with these “layers” of me-referencing thoughts referring to each other.

Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings?

No, never.

Whom does the "story of me" belong to?

It doesn’t belong to anyone, there’s nobody for it to belong to.

Is there a creator of story, separate from the story itself?

No. The story creates more story.

And what about the character Brett? What is telling the story about Brett?

The story of Brett is not being told by anyone or anything. It’s a story spun from layers of thoughts, referencing each other, often reacting to sensations, images, and other arisings in experience. There’s no actual Brett.

And how does Brett differ from Batman?

Batman is much more handsome, much more famous, and has a better wardrobe. Oh, and much, much cooler toys. :)
Brett is just a different story than Batman.

And where are the characters when you stop Imagining them?
Gone.

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

Batman is much more handsome, much more famous, and has a better wardrobe. Oh, and much, much cooler toys. :) Brett is just a different story than Batman.

Nice :)

Is anything separate from what’s happening?

Is there a 'looker' as some thing, (however subtle) that somehow stands separate from everything happening?

Tomorrow, if you can, go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening?
Is there anything which is separate from life, from what is?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Vivien,

Is anything separate from what’s happening?

No.

Is there a 'looker' as some thing, (however subtle) that somehow stands separate from everything happening?

No.

Tomorrow, if you can, go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

There's no line. Thoughts, images, sounds, it is all part of the one movement.

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

No.

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

No.

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

No.

Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

Yes.

Is there anything which is not just happening?

No.

Is there anything which is separate from life, from what is?

No.

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

So can you say that there has been a shift from intellectual understanding to an experiential conviction?

How does it feel now, and how is life led?

Any differences from before starting this conversation?

Is there any doubt whatsoever?

Is there seeking still going on?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

So can you say that there has been a shift from intellectual understanding to an experiential conviction?

Yes. There’s a kind of felt sense that is present.

How does it feel now, and how is life led?

There is more calmness. Ease. Life is experienced more as an unfolding, and the former sense of constantly needing to control it all has switched to a resting in experience and responding with what feels needed. There’s more humor, too. There’s probably more but that’s what immediately comes to mind as the highlights.

Any differences from before starting this conversation?

All of the above is different. And, more curiosity, more presence, sensing and observing, acting from ease rather than an urge to control or direct experience.

Is there any doubt whatsoever?

There’s no doubt that a me doesn’t exist, that this is all simply unfolding.

Is there seeking still going on?

It’s difficult to say that there is zero seeking, but if it is happening it’s in tiny pieces here and there.

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

V: So can you say that there has been a shift from intellectual understanding to an experiential conviction?

B: Yes. There’s a kind of felt sense that is present.

Can you point to the moment you moved from an intellectual-based understanding of there being no separate self to experientially seeing it?

and the former sense of constantly needing to control it all has switched to a resting in experience

What is it that is resting in experience?
Where is the rest-er?

It’s difficult to say that there is zero seeking, but if it is happening it’s in tiny pieces here and there.

But is there a seeking to find out THE Truth, or to know ‘who I am’, or how to be liberated/enlightened?

Is there anything missing right here now? Is anything incomplete here now? Could anything ever be incomplete? Should anything happen so that this moment would be "more complete"?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

V: So can you say that there has been a shift from intellectual understanding to an experiential conviction?
B: Yes. There’s a kind of felt sense that is present.
V: Can you point to the moment you moved from an intellectual-based understanding of there being no separate self to experientially seeing it?

B: It doesn’t seem to have been one moment, rather many moments; the repeated looking and not seeing.

B: and the former sense of constantly needing to control it all has switched to a resting in experience
V: What is it that is resting in experience?
V: Where is the rest-er?

Not an “it”. No rest-er. Experience is resting in experience. The unfolding. It’s an absence of something, the controller/controlling. It’s just more ease.

B: It’s difficult to say that there is zero seeking, but if it is happening it’s in tiny pieces here and there.
V: But is there a seeking to find out THE Truth, or to know ‘who I am’, or how to be liberated/enlightened?

No. The truth is right here. There’s no truth beyond this. There’s no “who” to know. And “liberation” / “enlightenment” are thoughts.

Is there anything missing right here now? Is anything incomplete here now? Could anything ever be incomplete? Should anything happen so that this moment would be "more complete"?

No to all of these questions. This right here is complete. There’s nothing missing. The desire to read so much in order to get some big answer to it all; the belief that something is missing, these are not here any more.

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Vivien,

Just wanted to let you know that I'm giving ample time to a thorough response here. I expect to reply later today.

Best,
Brett

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

V: Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, there isn’t and there never has been.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self is comprised of a combination of thoughts (including memories, images, imaginings, beliefs), emotional feelings, and bodily sensations. Reinforced, at times, with sights, sounds.

These are assumed, or taken as an implication, that there’s a separate “me” here, to whom things happen and who is in control, decides, and takes actions.

You say “when it starts” – if you mean when in the life of a human being, speaking in observing how it’s observed to operate both here and in 2 young kids, it begins when language is first being learned, around age 2, in that our language strongly implies and reinforces the notion that there’s a separate me.

Once it is believed that there’s a separate me here, these thoughts layer on top of each other and continue to run. These thoughts run in an unending, seemingly urgent, effort to get what that “me” ‘wants’ (which is actually feelings it wants to have), and most importantly get rid of &/or avoid what it doesn’t want (which is actually feelings it doesn’t want to have). Experiences are perceived “in terms of” a “me” here, and engaged as such. Another way to express this is that “everything that happens tends to be interpreted very personally”. This is strongly reinforced by the way other humans express and interact with the “me”, as though they are also separate.

As it’s been revealed here through this inquiry process, those desires (to get and to avoid/get rid of) stem from painful or intense experiences, especially those evoking fear and sadness. Especially, but not only, in younger years. Especially in relationship to “others”, wherein the “me” seem to be initially formed in part by how the cluster of thoughts perceives others perceiving it.

But in fact there is no “me” here. There’s no separate entity. There’s life unfolding, expressing itself in various ways, in accordance with a whole bunch of interactive factors. It’s not personal.

3) How does it feel to see this?

Awe, beauty, relief, relaxation, wonder, curiosity, humor, emotional warmth.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The differences from before this dialogue include;
It’s less common to take life so seriously.
The effort going into seeking or getting or efforting on behalf of the “me” is deflated or drained. It’s not the dominating movement of life.
What is arising in experience is not immediately seen as personal; it’s all seen as quite impersonal.
In the past few days specifically, the “I”, “me”, is experienced as simply more arisings within all of experience. It's perceived as an expression of Life.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

The last bit that did it was not finding the “decider”. This occurred right after you had me do the exercise with the hands on the table.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?

Decisions occur. There isn’t free will – that implies an entity to have free will, which doesn’t exist. Choices occur based on a bunch of factors in play at any given moment. There’s no decider, it’s all happening on automatic. Life itself makes things happen.

Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

A sandwich was just purchased for lunch today. How did that happen if no “me” did it? Why was that particular kind of sandwich the one purchased? Why that store? Why at that time?
Answer: Sensations labeled as hunger arose, which led to thoughts about the need for food, which led to thoughts about various options for eating and their various chances of bringing the most pleasure with the least displeasure (discomfort, inconvenience, time and money consumption). The sandwich purchased, and the store it was purchased from, were those believed to bring the “best” combination of those factors. It all happened on automatic, without a decider making the decisions. Given all the factors, no other decision was ever going to happen.

Another example:
“I” (this body?) just poured a cup of tea. But really what happened was: the sight of a tea cup brought up the thought of a warm cup of tea and the imagined pleasure it would bring.

b) What are you responsible for?

Nothing. There’s no “me” or “I” to be responsible for something.

Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

If I’m understanding you correctly, the above 2 examples seem to speak to this.

6) Anything to add?

Not for now.

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to get other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a day or so. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Vivien,

Okay, thanks for letting me know.

And thanks again for your commitment to this process with me.

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

There are no further questions for you. Congratulations for seeing through the self and for your persistent looking. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being open and willing to look.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you. Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Vivien