Getting closer ...

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,
Please read carefully my questions. Try not to figure out what they mean, rather take them literally.

Does this awareness/knowing have a shape, a location, a weight? Can you point to this awareness/knowing?

Is awareness/knowing something other than, different to, or separate from experience (what is)?

Can you find anything at all that is called "awareness/knowing", or do you just find experience (what is)?

In other words, is there a knowing and the known? Or is there only the known?

These questions are not just for to look at them once or twice. These need to be looked at hundreds of times. So stay with them at least for a whole day, and look as often as possible. Again and again and again.

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

I didn't get a chance to look properly at this exercise today, but I should have a chance to look tomorrow and report back then.

Best,

Chris

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Sorry Vivien - not much luck here. I haven't been able to look at this even ten times, let alone hundreds of times. It's not working, this exercise. Somehow it doesn't feel very accessible to me.

Anyway, I'm doing my best. This is what I've got for now:

Does this awareness/knowing have a shape, a location, a weight? Can you point to this awareness/knowing?

When I point towards my head to see if the location of the awareness will be in the head....it turns out to be in the exact location that I'm pointing at.
Same for any other part of the body. When I point at that part....that's exactly where the awareness ends up being.

Shape or weight...I got nothing right now. Feel some resistance to even looking when it comes to weight or shape.

Is awareness/knowing something other than, different to, or separate from experience (what is)?

I'm not sure. I feel like I need a specific exercise given to me for this one.

Can you find anything at all that is called "awareness/knowing", or do you just find experience (what is)?

Feeling very resistant. I need a specific example of an experience to work with.

In other words, is there a knowing and the known? Or is there only the known?

Same as above.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

The problem is that you have resistance to investigate awareness.

So what is this resistance about?
What would happen if it turned out that awareness is not what you imagined to be?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

The problem is that you have resistance to investigate awareness.

I don't think so. The problem is that I'm finding this one more complicated in terms of looking. The 'intelligent awareness' was hard enough to isolate and find to begin with, and I'm happy to work with it/look into it if there's something a bit more tangible to work with.
It's no good if I just go along with what I think you want me to say, as it were. No, I have to actually see for myself, right? It's the looking/seeing which is the important part. And I want to look, I really do.

So what is this resistance about?
What would happen if it turned out that awareness is not what you imagined to be?

The resistance is around a fear that I won't get to 'see' properly/thoroughly. It feels like this part is quite an important part, and I want to see in a clear way.
Awareness is already turning out to be a bit different to what I imagined it to be. And I do want to look further.

I recall a teacher who you're probably familiar with - Tony Parsons - saying there isn't a consciousness, there is simply 'what is', and I remember feeling quite resistant to his approach. I don't know if that's got anything to do with it.

Don't you have some more exercises around this though Vivien? Normally you've got loads of these up your sleeve.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

I recall a teacher who you're probably familiar with - Tony Parsons - saying there isn't a consciousness, there is simply 'what is', and I remember feeling quite resistant to his approach. I don't know if that's got anything to do with it.

This is exactly what I’m trying to show you with my questions.

So what if there is only ‘what is’?
Would that be a problem?

Is there anything outside of ‘what is’ being aware and looking inside of what is?

Don't you have some more exercises around this though Vivien? Normally you've got loads of these up your sleeve.

What I gave you was an exercise. Actually, every question I give you is an exercise. There is no difference between the two.
We will dig into this more, but first we have to make sure that there is no resistance preventing you from looking.

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

This is exactly what I’m trying to show you with my questions.

Yes, that had occurred to me...
And I'm very cautious that I need to see it for myself rather than just go along with it because you, or Tony Parsons or anyone else has said it.

So what if there is only ‘what is’?
Would that be a problem?

Maybe not. Maybe it would be just fine.

Is there anything outside of ‘what is’ being aware and looking inside of what is?

Again, the question feels too general. I don't know how to answer it. If I tried, it would be from speculation and not from looking, and that's not gonna help.

We will dig into this more, but first we have to make sure that there is no resistance preventing you from looking.

There's probably a bit of resistance that 'simply what is', is just a bit too simple or something like that. Maybe some expectations-type stuff. The usual stuff I guess...
But not as much as I had around the no-self stuff, and that didn't stop me looking.
I'm not feeling huge resistance to be honest. If I was I'd know about it as I'd feel it in the body.
I am feeling quite tired though as I've been a bit sick the last day or so. Feeling a bit kinda 'dumb'. Sorry if maybe that's been slowing me down a bit, and numbing my perceptual abilities.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

And I'm very cautious that I need to see it for myself rather than just go along with it because you, or Tony Parsons or anyone else has said it.

That’s very good. Never ever believe me or anybody else. Rather look for yourself :)

Again, the question feels too general. I don't know how to answer it. If I tried, it would be from speculation and not from looking, and that's not gonna help.

Listen to any continuous sound that is present in the room. It could be a fridge, a ticking clock, the sound of a fan, etc.

What is hearing the sound?
Is there a hearer anywhere?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

What is hearing the sound?
Is there a hearer anywhere?

There isn't a hearer outside of thoughts that speak of one. Outside speculation that speaks of one.
There is only the sound, and awareness of the sound.
No separation between the sound and awareness of it.

So far, so good...

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

There isn't a hearer outside of thoughts that speak of one. Outside speculation that speaks of one.
There is only the sound, and awareness of the sound.
No separation between the sound and awareness of it.

But isn’t the awareness of the sound the same as the hearer? Just different words used, trying to describe the same thing?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

But isn’t the awareness of the sound the same as the hearer? Just different words used, trying to describe the same thing?

Yes, I see what you mean.

And I think I've figured out more of where the resistance has been coming from. I feel it's important to share honesty around this because I think this is where I've been getting stuck. So, forgive me but I'm gonna unpack this.
In the example below, I had indeed misunderstood the question, and had been continuing with the previous exercise, which had been about a doer/doing, and decision making. The action had been to do with standing up from a chair, you remember? And I misunderstood your question (which was relating to thought) and simply continued the exercise from before which was about doing rather than thinking, but because I was in 'the zone' from the previous exercise, I felt I had a really clear seeing (albeit fleetingly) around there being no separation, and therefore no subject-object when it came to the doer and what is being done.

And so, on some level I was in resistance to moving on from this. The thought exercise (which I then went on to complete) was useful, but....I haven't experienced another really clear 'seeing' as good as the one I had whilst dealing with doing/action taking and seeing the lack of separation I saw there. Here it is as a reminder:

V: Is there a thought + the awareness of it?
Where does the thought end and the awareness of it starts?
Where is the dividing line between the thought and the awareness of it?

C: There are body sensations present, around 'the decision', as described earlier.
There is the movement (physically - of the action I'm going to take, or am taking).
There can be thoughts. But there's no dividing line between any of it. It all flows seemlessly.

There was some 'seeing' here. But only fleetingly.

It's a pleasant exercise to do. More enjoyable/relaxing than the previous exercises about the decision-maker/controller.

Hold on - there's a union here for the first time between the real and imagined?! Oneness. Of course this is speculation so you can ignore it - but it feels interesting :)

V:...maybe you misunderstood the question

That thing about oneness....I wish I hadn't told you to ignore it ;)

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

That thing about oneness....I wish I hadn't told you to ignore it ;)

I noticed it.

OK, there is an important thing here.

We are not after a special state, we are after seeing what has always been here, just we haven’t noticed.
Separation is always just imagined. But the aim with our exploration is not to get into a special state where the illusion of separation is completely gone.

We are not chasing a state. Since states are coming and going, they are never permanent.

Rather, we are investigating beliefs which are in the way to see how things has always been.
Like seeing that there has never been a separation.
But we are not trying to get into a state of non-separation.

But honestly, I’m not sure if I understand what your resistance is about.

Is it about not wanting to get out of the state of non-separation? Or something else?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Thanks for addressing the point.

I'm not overly concerned with the risk of getting addicted to a state, although I need to always be vigilant to see where that craving can creep in. It could be that I was indeed looking to recreate that state, so thanks for pointing that out.

Is it about not wanting to get out of the state of non-separation? Or something else?

I think the point I was making here is that maybe I just get a clearer 'seeing' when doing exercises around doing/doer rather than hearing/hearer.

But there's something else that's maybe also creating a bit of resistance:

Hold on - there's a union here for the first time between the real and imagined?

Was this a valid seeing? Or was this speculation? Feels like I need to get clear around this before we can move on.
It did feel like a profound moment for me, within this investigation so far.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Hold on - there's a union here for the first time between the real and imagined?
Was this a valid seeing? Or was this speculation? Feels like I need to get clear around this before we can move on.
It did feel like a profound moment for me, within this investigation so far.

How could a real and an imagined thing unite?
Can an imagined apple unite with a real apple?

It’s not about uniting two separate things, rather it’s about seeing that there isn’t a self that could be separate from everything else.

Using the apple as an example, the apple is there. The body is there. But there is no separate self living inside the body and observing/seeing/tasting/smelling the apple.

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

How could a real and an imagined thing unite?

Its not about a real thing and an imagined thing. It's not about things at all. It's about is-ness, and nothing is separate in the is-ness....right?

Can an imagined apple unite with a real apple?

If you imagine that it is merging, then yes.
If you imagine that it isn't merging with it, then no. (This was a lazy speculation, I know. No way you're gonna let me get away with that one....but it seemed like a crazy question!!).

Chris