Getting closer ...

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

But right now, in realtime, if a stranger walks in and says "what impression do you get about me?"....then I'm gonna check the body for the 'sense' I get about that person.

With this inquiry, we are never going to hypothetical scenarios. Never. Why? Because hypothetical scenarios can happen only in thoughts.

We will always ever look at experience here, right now.
Never in a hypothetical thought scenarios.

I might be getting into conceptualising a lot here...but I'm having trouble distinguishing between concept and direct experience.

Yes, exactly. You are conceptualizing. And with this investigation you cannot get anywhere with thinking.

Please tell me what is the difference between thought (conceptualizing, intellectualizing) and experience?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Please tell me what is the difference between thought (conceptualizing, intellectualizing) and experience?

Thought doesn't exist in the physical (real) world. Concept exists only in the realm of the imagination.
Experience exists in the real world.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Thought doesn't exist in the physical (real) world. Concept exists only in the realm of the imagination.
Experience exists in the real world.

Yes, exactly. And this is very important distinction.

And because thoughts are just imagination, we cannot rely on thoughts at all. Can you see this clearly?

We are going to look for the self soon. But before we do, it’s essential to see what is just imagination (thought) and what is reality (experience).

So if you want to prove if something really exists (and not just a fiction), like proving there is such thing as chair, what characteristics you have to look for? How would you prove that chairs exist?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Yes, exactly. And this is very important distinction.

At last I got one right - haha

And because thoughts are just imagination, we cannot rely on thoughts at all. Can you see this clearly?

Yes. No resistance to this right now.

We are going to look for the self soon. But before we do, it’s essential to see what is just imagination (thought) and what is reality (experience).

So if you want to prove if something really exists (and not just a fiction), like proving there is such thing as chair, what characteristics you have to look for? How would you prove that chairs exist?

I would look to see if its just a thought...and if it turns out to be a thought, then it can't really be trusted as an actual thing.
Whereas if its something solid in the real world, then it can be said to exist.
I cannot prove that a 'chair' exists...chair is just a word that mind has labelled.
What I see is wooden structure (but wood is a label also - so that cannot be trusted either).

So what I see is....erm, a 'thing'. Some 'thing' exists. But its hard to prove.
It seems I can only prove what it is not. Like a process of elimination.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Whereas if its something solid in the real world, then it can be said to exist.
I cannot prove that a 'chair' exists...chair is just a word that mind has labelled.
What I see is wooden structure (but wood is a label also - so that cannot be trusted either).
So what I see is....erm, a 'thing'. Some 'thing' exists. But its hard to prove.
It seems I can only prove what it is not. Like a process of elimination.

Your reply is still intellectual, by thinking. You are making it more complicated than as it is.
You have to become a clean slate, like a child. It’s as simply that even an 8-year old child can understand it.

It’s not about whether the object/thing called ‘chair’ is just a label. I’m asking something much simpler than this.

Take a chair, and put in front of you.

How do you know that it’s real, and not just imagined?
How is the chair experienced?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien,

It’s not about whether the object/thing called ‘chair’ is just a label. I’m asking something much simpler than this.

Take a chair, and put in front of you.

How do you know that it’s real, and not just imagined?
How is the chair experienced?

I can touch it, see it with my eyes. I can bend down and smell it. Or scrape it along the floor and hear it.
It is real.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

I can touch it, see it with my eyes. I can bend down and smell it. Or scrape it along the floor and hear it.
It is real.

Exactly.

Something is real if it can be experienced with the 5 senses. Is this totally clear, or you have doubts about it?

Can anything be experienced in any other way than with the 5 senses?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Something is real if it can be experienced with the 5 senses. Is this totally clear, or you have doubts about it?

Can anything be experienced in any other way than with the 5 senses?

Yes its clear.

No, nothing can be experienced in any other way than with the 5 senses.

Thoughts come up....but they are not really being 'experienced'. They are floating past the mind, and can seem real, to the mind. But they are not real within experience as they can't be experienced.

Thoughts arise, such as:
"But spirituality is real, isn't it? "
But this is seen to be just thought, and therefore not real.

I don't seem to be experiencing fear, or resistance in the body right now, around something which I had considered 'sacred'.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Thoughts come up....but they are not really being 'experienced'. They are floating past the mind, and can seem real, to the mind. But they are not real within experience as they can't be experienced.

What is not really being experienced? What do you refer to? To thoughts?

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine its shape, size, weight, temperature, color. Now keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

Then, open your eyes:

Is there a spoon here, in real life?

So how did you see that there is no spoon?

What happened to the spoon?

Did it disappear or it never existed?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien,

What is not really being experienced? What do you refer to? To thoughts?

Yes, exactly. I am referring to thoughts.

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine its shape, size, weight, temperature, color. Now keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

Then, open your eyes:

Is there a spoon here, in real life?

So how did you see that there is no spoon?

What happened to the spoon?

Did it disappear or it never existed?

No spoon here in real life.
I opened my eyes and saw that there is no spoon. And also, even when my eyes were closed I could not feel a spoon between my fingers.
It never existed in real life. It didn't go anywhere because it wasn't really there in the first place.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

It never existed in real life. It didn't go anywhere because it wasn't really there in the first place.

Good. Let’s look at the difference between experience and thought a bit more, since it’s essential to be super clear on this.

In this post there are some simple exercises for you. I would like to ask you to actually do the exercises, and not just think through them. Although they are very simple exercises, but exactly because of the simplicity it’s often overlooked. So please actually do them.

Here is an experiment for you. You will need a chair.

Choose a spot where there is some space both to your left and right.
Put the chair to your right.
Now turn slightly to your left, where there is some empty space.
Not turn back to your right, and investigate the chair thoroughly. Touch it, feel the fabric or the material it’s made of, look at its size, shape, color, texture.

Now turn back to your left to the empty space and try to imagine that there is the same chair you observed on your right. If it helps close your eyes. Imagine its fabric, size, color, shape, texture. Make it as vivid as you can. So you have two chairs, one on your right, and an imagined copy of it on your left.

Now open your eyes, and sit on that imagined chair of your left. Literally sit on it.
Can you do that? Why not?

Now turn to your right, and sit on the chair.
Can you do that? Why?

While sitting on the chair, investigate these:
Can the thought ‘sweet’ be tasted?
Can the thought ‘warm’ be felt?
Can the thought ‘fragrant scent’ be smelled?
Can the thought ‘beautiful sunset’ be seen?
Can the thought of ‘loud noise’ be heard?

Can the thought of drinking water make your thirst away?

Can the thought of ‘walking on a beach’ make your feet wet and sandy?
WHY not?

So what is the difference between real and imagined?

What is the difference between a chair and the THOUGHT OF a chair?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien,

Now open your eyes, and sit on that imagined chair of your left. Literally sit on it.
Can you do that? Why not?

Now turn to your right, and sit on the chair.
Can you do that? Why?

I tried to sit down on the left chair but I fell on my ass.
Because it isn't actually there. It was there in imagination, but not in reality.

I sat down on the right chair with no problem. It supported my weight easily.
Because it is there, and real and solid.

While sitting on the chair, investigate these:
Can the thought ‘sweet’ be tasted?
Can the thought ‘warm’ be felt?
Can the thought ‘fragrant scent’ be smelled?
Can the thought ‘beautiful sunset’ be seen?
Can the thought of ‘loud noise’ be heard?

No, they can't. None of them. But they can be imagined vividly, reall vividly. So vividly, it almost feels real.

Can the thought of drinking water make your thirst away?

No it makes it worse - lol

Can the thought of ‘walking on a beach’ make your feet wet and sandy?
WHY not?

No, because its only imagined. Its only thoughts. And thoughts are not a real experience of walking on a beach.

So what is the difference between real and imagined?

Real means it actually exists in the physical world. Imagined means it only exists in thought form, which isn't real.

What is the difference between a chair and the THOUGHT OF a chair?

A chair is a real, solid thing which exists in the physical world.
The thought of a chair is just a thought - something which resides in the realm of imagination. Imagined things are not real.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Thank you for getting through this exercise.

No, they can't. None of them. But they can be imagined vividly, reall vividly. So vividly, it almost feels real.

This is something very important. That it ALMOST feels real. So the reason I gave you this exercise to help you to learn to distinguish between thoughts and experience.

In our lives, there are many occasions when something happens only in thoughts, but it seems so real, that we react as if it’s actually happening. Like when you had a disagreement with your boss, and you replay the whole scenario in imagination while driving home. It can seem so real, that the body reacts as if was really happening (with faster heartbeat, sweating, etc). But regardless of the bodily reactions, it’s just an imagination.

So I would like to ask you to try to observe this in your everyday life and let me know what you find.

Here is something you wrote before:

They [thoughts] are floating past the mind,

Now, please sit for about 15 minutes, and observe as thoughts coming and going.

The presence of a thought is known. It’s there, undoubtedly.

But where is the ‘mind’ that thoughts are floating past by?

Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment you observe it?
What about its shape? Size? Color? Texture?

Can a ‘mind’ as such be experienced?
What is the mind in experience?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien,

This is something very important. That it ALMOST feels real. So the reason I gave you this exercise to help you to learn to distinguish between thoughts and experience.

In our lives, there are many occasions when something happens only in thoughts, but it seems so real, that we react as if it’s actually happening. Like when you had a disagreement with your boss, and you replay the whole scenario in imagination while driving home. It can seem so real, that the body reacts as if was really happening (with faster heartbeat, sweating, etc). But regardless of the bodily reactions, it’s just an imagination.

So I would like to ask you to try to observe this in your everyday life and let me know what you find.

So true. Imagination/thoughts can indeed feel so real. I hoped you'd notice that I'd seen that :) I had the sense that that was what the exercises were all about.

I've noticed for a while now, in my everyday life, how the body reacts to imagined scenarios just like it would with real life experiences. And I'll continue to observe this.

But where is the ‘mind’ that thoughts are floating past by?

Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?

The mind, as an actual 'thing' cant be found. Thoughts just arise and pass - not really 'floating past' anything as such. The thoughts can be seen/observed of course (but by what? ....that which observes the mind cannot be found either).

No I cannot observe 'mind' here and now. Only thoughts that come and go. Not an actual thing called 'mind'.

What is it in the very moment you observe it?
What about its shape? Size? Color? Texture?

I can't say what it is because I cannot observe it (I can't even find it).
No shape, size, colour or texture.

Can a ‘mind’ as such be experienced?
What is the mind in experience?

No, a 'mind' as such can't be found, or experienced.
And one cannot say what the mind is in experience, as it would need to be an actual real 'thing' in order to be experienced.

Right now Vivien, I'm getting the feeling of "this is easy"!
I understand you need to really ram the message home, so to speak. Hence the repetition.
And I get that we're doing lots of looking/seeing.
Feeling positive about this ongoing investigation.
And grateful for your ongoing help :)

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

I hoped you'd notice that I'd seen that :) I had the sense that that was what the exercises were all about.

Yes. So thoughts ‘talk about’ all sorts of things, like “thoughts are floating past the mind”.
And what we do here is to compare what thoughts say with experience, to see if thoughts are telling the truth.
So we are comparing fantasy/fiction/imagination (thoughts) with reality (experience).
That’s all we do here.

I understand you need to really ram the message home, so to speak. Hence the repetition.
And I get that we're doing lots of looking/seeing.

Yes, it’s all about repetition. It’s the constant and repeated looking, looking and more looking what brings about the realization.

So for this reason, I would like to ask you to NEVER rely on the MEMORY of a previous looking, but always look AFRESH again and again with each questions I give you. Can we agree on this?

And also, look as often as you can repeatedly in your daily life.

Feeling positive about this ongoing investigation.
And grateful for your ongoing help :)

You are very welcome :)
I’m glad that you don’t find it threatening. If fear or resistance comes up, then it’s a sure sign that a thought-fantasy is being believed with negative consequences to this investigation.

Right now Vivien, I'm getting the feeling of "this is easy"!

Because it is easy. But many seekers make it into a complicated intellectual thing.

This is very simple. I cannot emphasize the simplicity enough, actually. Have you heard phrases like, "It's right here" or "It's so simple"? It's a good idea to take that very literally.

And one cannot say what the mind is in experience, as it would need to be an actual real 'thing' in order to be experienced.

So what is the mind then?

Is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from 'a mind'?

Please look again with each questions just to make sure that it’s super clear.

The mind, as an actual 'thing' cant be found. Thoughts just arise and pass - not really 'floating past' anything as such. The thoughts can be seen/observed of course (but by what? ....that which observes the mind cannot be found either).

But aren’t you the thinker of thoughts?

Please sit on a chair doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch the thoughts coming and going.
Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?

Please repeat this exercise several times before replying.

Vivien