Quest for true happiness

[Florisness]

Hi Tushar, appreciating your openness in this inquiry :-)

Owner of the experience has been created by mind and conditioning. In quietude, there is no owner of the experience, experience is happening

Nice

Body creates an image of inside and outside. But once eyes are closed and it is asked can an inside and outside be distinguished. Nothing is experienced in such a scenario, thus it seems that inside and outside are part of same experience.

Yes, so has been my observations and thinking too.

Mind creates a person. Last night I was tired and when I went to sleep I had this strong realisation that this person- 'Tushar' was not there at all in sleep, but experience still happened. Thus it seems that 'I am' even if person is there or not.
To be honest there is still a question, that there must be some 'entity' to whom this experience is. Because you and I both are experiencing, but your experience and my experience would be different. Having said that, somehow, it doesn't matter whether an answer to this question is found or not.

Nice realisation. What exactly do you mean by Tushar/this person here?
Would this 'entity' have a form or location?
Well this haven't been my own direct insights, and I don't want to write it as if it is, so; It is said that what you call your and mine experience are just crystallisations/individuations/focal points of the same One/Being/Source/God/Mind

It brings the attention back to the silence. If only experience is happening and there is no interpretation by the mind then all of us are just experiencing. Few question comes:-
Why each one of us will have a different unique experience?
A fear comes will I become passive if I immerse in this experience, when the time comes to act will I act or not? Should I act or not?
All the life that I lived till now didn't make a difference?

- see answer above. Also, how would you know there is an 'each of us'? Could the question perhaps also be 'why are there numerous experiences?'?. And that answer I don't know, only what I've heard which is along the lines of 'because God wants to explore/experience itself in all its different manifestations'.
- In my experience, the less self there is, the more openness and joy and aliveness. Don't worry about if you will act when you need to. Things seem to work just fine, so has been my experience anyway. If you look for the controller of actions and thought, what do you find? How have all actions and thoughts happened or come about?
- Did your life make a difference or not.. How to answer, it depends on how you look at it? Does it feel you are losing/lost something 'valuable'? If this is so, this is a quite normal thing for you to experience. That is okay, don't worry, consider it a predecessor for more freedom, clarity and joy.

What is your perspective on the self/person now and how do you feel about that?

Floris

[Tushar]

What exactly do you mean by Tushar/this person here?

When I say Tushar - I mean this personal image/story which we associate with our birth name and we believe to be us. What I meant by mentioning the sleep state was:- that I am certain that in my sleep state there was no Tushar, but I was. Thus believing this personal story to be us definitely seems like a wrong association

Would this 'entity' have a form or location?

This entity is not the human form, neither it is located somewhere. Best location about this entity could be the present moment. This entity is here in the present moment.

Also, how would you know there is an 'each of us'? Could the question perhaps also be 'why are there numerous experiences?'?

I know that I am having an experience. I don't know about your experience. Thus there seems to be my experience different from yours.

If you look for the controller of actions and thought, what do you find? How have all actions and thoughts happened or come about?

There is no controller, mind makes us believe that there is an entity to whom experience is happening. Mind is also part of this experience. All thoughts happen by themselves, there is no controller. But when it comes to actions there is still some doubt that persists. Isn't it the mind which pushes us to act. There are certain involuntary actions that cant be controlled, but some voluntary ones aren't they controlled by our mind. Isn't my mind pushing the body to go in the morning for the 'run'.

Did your life make a difference or not.. How to answer, it depends on how you look at it? Does it feel you are losing/lost something 'valuable'?

To be precise there is a doubt, that I maybe believing in something which maybe absolutely false.There is a doubt that I am believing in it because it is letting me remain passive.

What is your perspective on the self/person now and how do you feel about that?

What I can say till now is that the person is not a separate entity, but a part of the experience. If you silence your mind, there is no person. In deep sleep, there is no person. A person only feels real when there are relationships with 'others'. I can let go of the person.

[Florisness]

When I say Tushar - I mean this personal image/story which we associate with our birth name and we believe to be us. What I meant by mentioning the sleep state was:- that I am certain that in my sleep state there was no Tushar, but I was. Thus believing this personal story to be us definitely seems like a wrong association

And this personal image/story is what? Is it correct that this is just a collection of thoughts with feelings 'attached to it'? And no source or center to them?

This entity is not the human form, neither it is located somewhere. Best location about this entity could be the present moment. This entity is here in the present moment.

Yes good. Although the word entity gives me the sense of identification with the body. Would you agree that this 'entity' is then like a uniform field?

There is no controller, mind makes us believe that there is an entity to whom experience is happening. Mind is also part of this experience. All thoughts happen by themselves, there is no controller. But when it comes to actions there is still some doubt that persists. Isn't it the mind which pushes us to act. There are certain involuntary actions that cant be controlled, but some voluntary ones aren't they controlled by our mind. Isn't my mind pushing the body to go in the morning for the 'run'.

Yes good, however let me nitpick here, because these little details can be important:
- "Isn't it the mind which pushes us to act" - What is pushed to act specifically? The personal story (cluster of thoughts and feelings), the present moment, or what? There might be a sense of self that comes up when action happens, perceiving happens, or the like, but is this sense of self actually a self or doing anything?
- What is the difference exactly in your experience between what you call an involuntary action and voluntary action? Is it more then a sense of self or sense of doership? Try this: wiggle your fingers and try to find how this comes about, can something be found that's doing it, that's responsible for it, can something be found that's bringing the wiggling fingers about?

To be precise there is a doubt, that I maybe believing in something which maybe absolutely false.There is a doubt that I am believing in it because it is letting me remain passive.

I see, however there is no need to believe in anything. No need for conclusions. It might be helpful to keep checking/looking for the self/person/tushar so now and then for a while to keep seeing that no-one can be found.

What I can say till now is that the person is not a separate entity, but a part of the experience. If you silence your mind, there is no person. In deep sleep, there is no person. A person only feels real when there are relationships with 'others'. I can let go of the person.

And if you don't silence your mind, is there a person then? Or perhaps only a sense of person? Is a sense of person a real person?

You're doing wonderful, keep it up just a little longer :-) Sometimes I might ask things that seem a little repetitive, but it's good to repeat some things or look at it from just a tiny different angle.

[Tushar]

.And this personal image/story is what? Is it correct that this is just a collection of thoughts with feelings 'attached to it'? And no source or center to them?

This personal story is a collection of memories which is superimposed on this person 'Tushar'. I have no memory of any other experience. And thus this experience creates an illusion of a person. All memories are a summation of thoughts and associated emotions.

.Would you agree that this 'entity' is then like a uniform field?

Yes this is my experience this entity is an energy field which has remained constant and all images and sensations are superimposed on this energy field. How do I experience this energy field without interference of mind, any suggestions?

.Isn't it the mind which pushes us to act" - What is pushed to act specifically? The personal story (cluster of thoughts and feelings), the present moment, or what?

Nice question, there is nobody being pushed. An action happens, but there is no person to whom it happens. It just happens. So Floris does all this attribution of action to person is false. There is just action happening, why are certain person keep on performing a similar sort of action/habit. Is it the mind which forms habit ?

.There might be a sense of self that comes up when action happens, perceiving happens, or the like, but is this sense of self actually a self or doing anything?

Yes there is a sense of self, but you are correct there is no self it is just an attribution by mind to an imaginative self

- What is the difference exactly in your experience between what you call an involuntary action and voluntary action? Is it more then a sense of self or sense of doership?

Involuntary actions happen and there is no sense of self associated with them. Voluntary actions have a strong sense of self. But as we discussed sense of self doesn't mean there is a real self

. Try this: wiggle your fingers and try to find how this comes about, can something be found that's doing it, that's responsible for it, can something be found that's bringing the wiggling fingers about?

This is so funny. Wiggling is just happening. Nothing else can be found

. And if you don't silence your mind, is there a person then? Or perhaps only a sense of person? Is a sense of person a real person?

There is just a sense of self when the mind is active

Sometimes I might ask things that seem a little repetitive, but it's good to repeat some things or look at it from just a tiny different angle.

Absolutely fine Floris, thanks so much.
A baby boy has blessed our lives, that is why I am responding late.

[Florisness]

A baby boy has blessed our lives, that is why I am responding late.

Wow, that's great, I'm happy for you. I hope you enjoy your days a lot!! And respond whenever you want of course.

This personal story is a collection of memories which is superimposed on this person 'Tushar'. I have no memory of any other experience. And thus this experience creates an illusion of a person. All memories are a summation of thoughts and associated emotions.

Yes, although it's not accurate to say that it is superimposed ON a person called Tushar, but that the collection of memories rather IS what most refer to as 'me' 'person' 'self'. These memories or thoughts and the sense of self are just appearing within experience/consciousness just as a sound of a bird chirping, or a cloud passing by, etc. It's not more personal than that, because there isn't a person, to which something could be personal :-)

Yes this is my experience this entity is an energy field which has remained constant and all images and sensations are superimposed on this energy field. How do I experience this energy field without interference of mind, any suggestions?

What do you mean by wanting do experience this energy field? Do you mean awakening?

Nice question, there is nobody being pushed. An action happens, but there is no person to whom it happens. It just happens. So Floris does all this attribution of action to person is false. There is just action happening,

Yes, yes, yes! :-) Where would the actions even be attributed to? Just to a sense of self right, which isn't a real self, just feelings.

why are certain person keep on performing a similar sort of action/habit. Is it the mind which forms habit ?

What is mind in your experience? I don't know exactly how habit forming works, but I don't see how the mind (thought/thinking) is responsible for it.

Yes there is a sense of self, but you are correct there is no self it is just an attribution by mind to an imaginative self

Yes, that's my observation also

Involuntary actions happen and there is no sense of self associated with them. Voluntary actions have a strong sense of self. But as we discussed sense of self doesn't mean there is a real self

Nice yes. And yes, if there was a real self or person, it would have to be here right? If there was a real person/self we are supposed to be it, so it would have to be here, but it's not.

This is so funny. Wiggling is just happening. Nothing else can be found

It is funny, isn't it! Happy you're seeing this.

There is just a sense of self when the mind is active

Could we say then that the (sense of) self, is just an activity rather then an entity?

[Tushar]

What do you mean by wanting do experience this energy field? Do you mean awakening?

Ha ha. Who is there to experience this energy field? No one. This is. A question pops up in my mind " If there is no experiencer, then does that mean this energy field never had any choice? This energy field was just an observer? Is this energy field real or this is another imagination? " " If there is no experiencer, if there is no 'I' then who am I? What is real and what is false?"

What is mind in your experience? I don't know exactly how habit forming works, but I don't see how the mind (thought/thinking) is responsible for it.

Mind behaves based on knowledge, beliefs and memories. I think mind is a brain in action. Smoking is a habit, a non-smoker doesn't become a smoker or vice versa. The associated memories and the chemical change they bring in the body is responsible for habits, what do you think?

Could we say then that the (sense of) self, is just an activity rather then an entity?

Yes this sense of self is an activity. There is no entity I agree. But a question pops up if there is no entity then "Who am I?"

Seeing is more clear Floris, but in moments when interaction happen with others, the 'sense of self' is really strong.

[Florisness]

Ha ha. Who is there to experience this energy field? No one. This is.

:-)

A question pops up in my mind " If there is no experiencer, then does that mean this energy field never had any choice? This energy field was just an observer? Is this energy field real or this is another imagination? "

- Choice in what? And was an observer when? In 'Conversations with God' I read that the energy field (or called 'Soul' in that book) chooses to come into physicality (earthly life), but the choices you make in your day to day life are made by the mind.
- Well if by talking by energy field here you mean experience and imagination as thinking/thought, then you tell me: is there an experiential difference between imagination and other experiences?

"If there is no experiencer, if there is no 'I' then who am I? What is real and what is false?"

Good one. So if you look at an 'object' such as your hand, is there a body or something inside the body found to be aware of that?
I trust that you don't find it. So then, how is the hand known? If there isn't something separate found that is aware of the hand, then how does it work? Could you perhaps say that this space (the space in and outside the body) itself is aware, or selfaware? Does this change your perspective on the question you asked, and if so, how?

Mind behaves based on knowledge, beliefs and memories. I think mind is a brain in action. Smoking is a habit, a non-smoker doesn't become a smoker or vice versa. The associated memories and the chemical change they bring in the body is responsible for habits, what do you think?

Yes, the actions of mind and body seem to sprout out of memory (including knowledge and beliefs as memory here). Even your genetics can be said to be memory no? That creates also behaviors of body and mind.

Yes this sense of self is an activity. There is no entity I agree. But a question pops up if there is no entity then "Who am I?"

I rather don't give you too much answers, as I rather wish for you to get in the habit of deriving them on your own. So I hope your answers and thoughts on my just earlier asked questions help a little.

Seeing is more clear Floris, but in moments when interaction happen with others, the 'sense of self' is really strong.

Nice! Yes that's very normal and does not mean that you haven't realised or seen this whole no-self thing clearly enough. It will take further gradual dissolution for the seperate self/me feelings to leave the body.

Have a nice day, with love,
Floris

[Florisness]

Hi, just wanted to change a part of my responses to this:

Good one. So if you look at an 'object' such as your hand, is there a body or something inside the body found to be aware of that?
I trust that you don't find it. So then, how is the hand known? If there isn't something separate found that is aware of the hand, then how does it work? What does that mean for the distinction which is often made between subject and object? Could we say perhaps that object and subject are one? Would that mean there is only subject present "in your experience"? What do you think about that and does this change your perspective on the question you asked, and if so, how?

[Tushar]

Choice in what? And was an observer when?

When I was talking about Choice, I was talking about freewill.
Observer - always. If energy field is just present then it is an observer of the present moment, nothing else

is there an experiential difference between imagination and other experiences?

Imagination only involves thought, other experiences involve other 5 physical senses as well. Feelings and emotions can be same in both cases

Good one. So if you look at an 'object' such as your hand, is there a body or something inside the body found to be aware of that?
I trust that you don't find it. So then, how is the hand known?

Can't find the body aware of the hand. Don't know how the hand is known. Interpretation from mind happens when hand is observed for some time

If there isn't something separate found that is aware of the hand, then how does it work? What does that mean for the distinction which is often made between subject and object? Could we say perhaps that object and subject are one? Would that mean there is only subject present "in your experience"?

Thanks for pointing this out Floris. This means that there is only subject in experience.

What do you think about that and does this change your perspective on the question you asked, and if so, how?

This makes me think if there is only subject then I am the awareness of the subject. I will be honest this is still more of an interpretation than experiential.

I am trying to spend time in daily life where I can apply these understanding and not get involved in a 'self' . But still I have way to go as it's only in retrospect that I can live this understanding of no-self

[Florisness]

When I was talking about Choice, I was talking about freewill.
Observer - always. If energy field is just present then it is an observer of the present moment, nothing else

I see, about free will.. I don't know! :-)
And yes good, would the energy field and the present moment be 2 things/separate things?
Don't try to only speculate, but verify or compare these ideas to your experience always.

Thanks for pointing this out Floris. This means that there is only subject in experience.

This makes me think if there is only subject then I am the awareness of the subject. I will be honest this is still more of an interpretation than experiential.

That's good, and thank you for telling me. Here are some contemplation or inquiries for you to do. I've putted them in some sort of order that makes sense to me, but use them as you please. You can do this any many times as you feel you are still getting something out of it:

A inquiry to dissolve the remnants of the subject:
Look or listen to an object (sounds, sights) that's 'outside you' and see if there is anything in the body that is seeing/hearing the 'outside' object. You could use these questions: Is there any see'er, or just seeing? Is there any hearer, or just hearing? You could also try, is there any feeler, or just feeling? Is there anything inside the body, cognizing something outside the body? If there isn't something inside the body cognizing or being aware of the 'outside object', could the object you're seeing or listening be 'selfaware', or perhaps more accurate, be made of selfaware stuff?

Dissolve the belief/sense of in and outside:
Take a moment to sit down and close your eyes and listen to the sounds that are going on in what is conventionally called outside of me. Then bring up a sound as thought. Now move your attention between these two points, and see if attention ever passes a point between an inside or an outside. Does attention ever leave the space called inside, and comes in to an outside space? Could it all be the same space/field/awareness in which or as which, experience takes place?

Further inquiry/contemplation:
At the contemplation or inquiry above you might have started to get the feel that all of experience could be seen as one single field, existing out of the same stuff, and there not being anything else present then this 'stuff' (however we want to call it). Look what labels you can apply or seem applicable to this 'stuff'. Bring up these labels one by one and see if they resonate. I'd suggest that all these words are synonyms, or could more or less be called so.
Scan through your experience, through space and all sort of 'objects', and while doing so, see if you can get a sense with each of these words being applicable to the 'stuff' your scanning through. See if you can get a sense that they are synonyms.
- experience
- experiencing
- awareness
- consciousness
- life
- existence
- reality
- universe
- being (as a noun)
- being (as a verb)
- knowing
- space
- spaciousness
- openness
- now
- here
- subject
- selfawareness

You might find that using verbs feel gentler and better then nouns. You could try turning some of the upper labels into verbs as well and 'apply' them to your experience. Your comments or findings on these contemplation are very welcome.

I am trying to spend time in daily life where I can apply these understanding and not get involved in a 'self' . But still I have way to go as it's only in retrospect that I can live this understanding of no-self

Yes this will take time and it's a good practice to remember to be aware throughout the day. I don't know what you mean with not getting involved in a self, the self is only thought or feelings, being aware of those is often enough. For me, when a sense of me/self arises I get quite excited, as there is something to be with/be aware of and dissolve :-)

[Tushar]

.Is there anything inside the body, cognizing something outside the body? If there isn't something inside the body cognizing or being aware of the 'outside object', could the object you're seeing or listening be 'selfaware', or perhaps more accurate, be made of selfaware stuff?

Hi Floris,

Could not understand what you mean by if there is no one inside the body cognizing outside objects then outside object might itself be 'self-aware'. Can we look into this a little bit deeper.

I can feel that there is nothing inside which is perceiving objects. A seeing happens, A hearing happens, A feeling happens... So i dont know in this experience whether there is an outside or inside, there is just thoughts, sensations, feelings and associated emotions. But how does this mean that outside object is self-aware, how is it made of the same stuff

. Your comments or findings on these contemplation are very welcome.

Thanks for these pointings.
When i try to imagine a sound or hear a sound, it happens in the same space. There is no distinct outside where the 'external' sound is heard which is distinct from the space where the 'imagined' sound is heard.

The same applies for feeling created by a physical sensation or an imagined thought. They are both creating feelings in the same space. The more I contemplate on this more it feels like there is an experience happening and everything be it physical, non-physical, real, imagined etc is happening in the same experience.

.I don't know what you mean with not getting involved in a self, the self is only thought or feelings, being aware of those is often enough. For me, when a sense of me/self arises I get quite excited, as there is something to be with/be aware of and dissolve :-)

By getting involved in the thoughts that there is a self, i meant by getting carried away in the mental field of thoughts of doership, oneself etc.
Can we look into this sense of self a little deeper. Because this sense of self when i experience I feel it so strong that there is no denying it. It is only retrospect when there is silence, i am able to dissolve it.

[Florisness]

Hi Tushar, good hearing from you again.

Could not understand what you mean by if there is no one inside the body cognizing outside objects then outside object might itself be 'self-aware'. Can we look into this a little bit deeper.

I can feel that there is nothing inside which is perceiving objects. A seeing happens, A hearing happens, A feeling happens... So i dont know in this experience whether there is an outside or inside, there is just thoughts, sensations, feelings and associated emotions. But how does this mean that outside object is self-aware, how is it made of the same stuff

I was pointing in this direction to dissolve the sense or concept or subject and object further. This isn't really needed to see through the self/person, but to satisfy your curiosity now, I'll try clarifying it further.
An object is not self aware, because there are no objects. Think of That Which Is (you/consciousness), like transparant self-aware space. This transparant self-aware space is undivided and can color itself into sounds, feelings, sights (what you'd call objects) and so forth. Your experience, is how this undivided transparant self-aware space has now colored itself. Can you match this to your experience, and see if it does or doesn't resonate.

The same applies for feeling created by a physical sensation or an imagined thought. They are both creating feelings in the same space. The more I contemplate on this more it feels like there is an experience happening and everything be it physical, non-physical, real, imagined etc is happening in the same experience.

Yes, exactly! Just like I just tried writing out above.

By getting involved in the thoughts that there is a self, i meant by getting carried away in the mental field of thoughts of doership, oneself etc.
Can we look into this sense of self a little deeper. Because this sense of self when i experience I feel it so strong that there is no denying it. It is only retrospect when there is silence, i am able to dissolve it.

Yes, sure. The point of this website, it for you to realise/see/grasp there is no separate self/person/Trushar. This does not mean that all sense of me/self immediately leaves, and that getting carried away in thoughts of doership, oneself, etc, doesn't arise anymore.

What do you mean by, there is no denying it? denying what, that there is a person/self or that there are strong 'me feelings'? do these 'me feelings' make a person or self? Does a person/doer/self come into being or experience when actions or these 'me feelings' arise?

Let me use some terminology already used, i.e. undivided self-aware transparant space (that is you) to make a story which might put things into perspective. Please don't just believe it, but just see if it resonates. Because the story is only attempting to point to how your experience happened.
This self-aware and undivided transparant like space that you are had been told since the birth of the body that it is the body. It was given a name, and was made to believe that other bodies and 'things' are separate from it, i.e. not it. And thus arose in this space the feeling of being separate from other parts of itself from quite an early age. Language such as 'I did this, you do that, I think this, etc' created even stronger sense of individuality, because now the feelings arose of being in control and responsible for the actions of the body and mind. Of course, this space felt like being a body and thus quite cut off from its wholeness, openness and joy and thus relief was sought in all sorts of activities, friendships and fantasies. In the end, of course, all of these activities don't give and cannot give this space the sense of its natural wholeness and oneness, only a return to its natural state can.

Does that resonate a little? What are your thoughts? :-)

[Tushar]

Think of That Which Is (you/consciousness), like transparant self-aware space. This transparant self-aware space is undivided and can color itself into sounds, feelings, sights (what you'd call objects) and so forth. Your experience, is how this undivided transparant self-aware space has now colored itself. Can you match this to your experience, and see if it does or doesn't resonate

It does resonate Floris, that my experience/transparent self-aware space is coloured in this life with various objects.

What do you mean by, there is no denying it? denying what, that there is a person/self or that there are strong 'me feelings'? do these 'me feelings' make a person or self? Does a person/doer/self come into being or experience when actions or these 'me feelings' arise?

There is no denying that there are strong me feelings. There is no denying that these strong me feelings always arise when there is interaction happening with other beings. That these me feelings create a sense of doership, for eg:- I have to take care of family etc. These me feelings create a sense of a person. But when this person is looked for it is not found, it is a story. A story made real by a sense of memory. This fictional person/ Tushar is attributed to this body & mind I have.

Does that resonate a little? What are your thoughts? :-)

This resonates totally. All the relationships sought are to make yourself feel more complete.

Sometimes when I look at my new born kid, it feels that my kid is an adult. He doesn't feel like a kid, because a story of a person has not begun being attributed to him. He looks more silent, more at peace.

[Florisness]

It does resonate Floris, that my experience/transparent self-aware space is coloured in this life with various objects.

Great!

There is no denying that there are strong me feelings. There is no denying that these strong me feelings always arise when there is interaction happening with other beings. That these me feelings create a sense of doership, for eg:- I have to take care of family etc. These me feelings create a sense of a person. But when this person is looked for it is not found, it is a story. A story made real by a sense of memory. This fictional person/ Tushar is attributed to this body & mind I have.

That's very good, very good observations. Would you say it is completely clear, and would you like to ask me the confirmation questions that are usually asked at Liberation Unleashed? Those questions are to see if any 'unclarities' are there.

This resonates totally. All the relationships sought are to make yourself feel more complete.

Sometimes when I look at my new born kid, it feels that my kid is an adult. He doesn't feel like a kid, because a story of a person has not begun being attributed to him. He looks more silent, more at peace.

Yes, in your perception there might feel or seem to be a separate entity, but that would mostly likely not be there for him/her (yet:-) ).

[Tushar]

Would you say it is completely clear, and would you like to ask me the confirmation questions that are usually asked at Liberation Unleashed? Those questions are to see if any 'unclarities' are there.

I don't know if it is completely clear, because in daily living the person keeps on arising. And to be honest I am still learning on how to dissolve the 'me'. Feel free to share any questions Floris, and we can check if there are any unclarities