How does one still live without self?

[iknownothing]

Having fun? Isn't it obvious now that you SEE? 

I don't know that I would call this fun, but it's definitely more obvious. It's more illuminating then fun...in a oh my kind of way :-) 

Are you asking me or telling me? :)

Both I think :-)

Can you find any boundary to this moment?

No, there is no boundary.

Okay, this may be the last one. I'd be happy to share some others & point you to a couple of books with pointers. but you've got this.

Okay, I think the bigger thing I'm struggling with is staying in the awareness of no self during my day-to-day living. It's super easy to fall back into old habits. And while I had a deep felt sense that this awakening wouldn't magically make life easier, I have a lot of life stress that very often drives me back into suffering.

Memory Exercise

Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly?

A thought

What is the memory ‘made of’?

A thought

WHEN does the memory appear?

Whenever it does?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

Nothing

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

There is no way of knowing

Then, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

A thought

WHEN does the future thought appear?

Whenever it does

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

Nothing

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

There is no way to know

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

There is no difference

How's the emotional roller coaster going?  

I wrote a bit above - life is stressful and I know that's a lie but I guess I'm getting really hammered with unpleasant sensations and it's hard not to delve back into stories. The desire to make the stories real is so strong, and I know it gets to your point about "what are you afraid of" and the sensations around the loss of control (that I never had) for some reason are relentless.

I'm still really struggling with the question "now what" which I know is silly because the only "now" that exists is right now. I've always been such a planner, type A, goals, accomplishments, get things done kind of person. And when I realized that all of that is a silly story, a dream of sorts and it ain't real and never has been, I feel a little unhinged ;-) I see myself wandering around collecting all the pieces and questioning myself as to why I'm doing that?

I think the biggest piece that's really tugging on me is all of it together around death. Someone important in my life died a few months ago. The death kind of kicked this process off for me and working through the ideas of memories and time, and direct experience... well it really means the person is gone, gone. And it's like all I have are the memories and pictures that remain, and those concepts aren't real. 

I guess the sensations I have when I look at their picture are real? I know the content of my thoughts about them aren't, the memory of them. I want the person to still be "alive" and I know that's silly now.. it's the same longing I have when I leave my currently, actually alive dog and I expect him to still be alive when I get back. It's not real.

So that's the current tug, the current emotional roller coaster.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Catherine,

I just want you to know I've seen your replies. Remember, there will be lots to do after this. That's why there are support groups on Facebook. And you can also ask me questions as needed.

Has your knowing ever left you since you "saw?" Or is it still there, even when your stress & doubts come up?

I want to address your questions on the content of thought about death. I'll have to do that a little later or tomorrow.

In the meantime, consider something Byron Katie says, "No two people have ever met." Can you see that? All we ever meet is the content of our thoughts - our stories, expectations, fears - never the "person," who isn't AE anyway, right?

Meditate on that a bit and I'll reply some more soon.

Loving,

[iknownothing]

Has your knowing ever left you since you "saw?" Or is it still there, even when your stress & doubts come up?  

Has my knowing in terms of knowing that I'm not real? Yeah, that awareness takes effort and I have to catch myself frequently falling into the traps of stories. Once I do the exercises you've had me to - the find the "actual experience", things tend to reset and I re-awake (come back into awareness). It's a dance still. The sensations trigger thoughts, and then I find myself in thought content. I think it's harder too because the contents of my thoughts for so long have "saved" me from a very, very, very harsh reality. They have been a very welcome distraction. But that distraction no longer serves me and I think too much of the me that isn't real believes that the thoughts that once were merely distractions are actually real. 

Anyways, this isn't making sense to me anymore, so I imagine it doesn't make much sense to you.

In the meantime, consider something Byron Katie says, "No two people have ever met." Can you see that? All we ever meet is the content of our thoughts - our stories, expectations, fears - never the "person," who isn't AE anyway, right? 

I hear you, and I see what you are saying, but that doesn't make it any easier :-) Yes, I am aware this real, actual person never really existed and there isn't a "me" to mourn their loss. And I know the other quote you like (which has been helpful)," if it hurts you are lying" also applies here. In a way I see that this kind of mourning and grief is self-inflicted. The sensations are still there though. Being aware of all of that doesn't make it hurt less?

I just really keep coming back to this really deep place of "if there's nothing left of me, then what am I" and the word "nothing" doesn't resonate. Once again label, stories, wash, rinse, repeat. It's this cycle of thought content that just carries on. The awareness is there but it's hard to stop before it starts. I guess I just need more mental conditioning.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Catherine

Remember, I use the word Awareness to indicate that which is aware of AE in this moment. Some people use "consciousness, " but that has been used so much in advertising and labels on food and things that I'm tired of seeing it.

Aware/in story will be a dance likely for some time.

Do you ever actually un - SEE? Or is some awareness of no- self always present?

So, what's missing? What more do you still seek? Anything?

a very, very, very harsh reality.

Not to disrespect your experience, but can you see that this is more content of thought? When you look at Actual Experience of Seeing, Hearing, Feeling, Tasting, and Smelling where do you find this "very harsh reality?" Is it AE?

You write, "that distraction no longer serves me." Good.

Give me a brief, specific description of a very harsh reality & we can look at it together.


Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Hi again,

WHEN does the future thought appear?
Whenever it does

Yes. But when it does... when is that?

Loving ,

[iknownothing]

Do you ever actually un - SEE? Or is some awareness of no- self always present? 

Very good point, and I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. There is definitely some felt sense/awareness that no-self is always present. So no, I don't ever actually un-See, just become unaware. I feels really expansive to realize this.

So, what's missing? What more do you still seek? Anything?

That question hits deep in my gut. Meaning isn't it, worth maybe? Some connection to God, some kind of proof that I'm "good,"capable of being redeemed. It all sounds SO SILLY now to even write that. The thing is when I really feel into the expansive place like I do above, when I really SEE, all of the questions drop away and there is this felt sense of completeness. There is no yearning, no desire, no label/story crap. It all falls away. 

Is it AE? 

Yes, in terms of really unpleasant sensations. The labeling of the reality is absolutely thought content but I used it to categorize the sensations. And I can see better now how much the labeling of the sensations increases the suffering. Feeling the sting and burn of being hit only lasts but a few seconds but the suffering of "being abused" lasts much longer.

Give me a brief, specific description of a very harsh reality & we can look at it together. 

Let's look at abuse - being hit and overpowered by another human. There is the AE - the burning wrists, the tense muscles, the throat sore from screaming, etc. and then there's that layer over top right, the "meaning making/thought content" - this is abuse, I don't deserve this, why is this person treating me like this, why is God doing this to me?, why is this happening? and then the follow-on of "I survived this so now I'm stronger", "God must have wanted me to become stronger", etc.

None of the stories are real. I see that now. And I see that without all the commentary, the follow-on actions would be the same - people who are hit and don't like it generally leave the person who hits them. I guess boiling things down to the bare bones of AE, loses something for me in these instances.

Maybe it's just me not honoring the positive actual experiences and instead focusing more on the negative.

[iknownothing]

Yes. But when it does... when is that? 

When I don't like the present :-) It's a distraction from AE, from reality. At least for me, thinking about the future gave me the sense that I had control over changing it. It's a way of saying, don't like things now, think about how different things will be in the future! I know now that's false.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Catherine,

Keep it simple. When does a future thought appear? How about ... NOW? :) Can you see this?

So no, I don't ever actually un-See, just become unaware. I feels really expansive to realize this.

GOOD. It IS expansive. Truth is expansive. Lies are contractions. You felt this in your body when you checked. Very simple.

It all sounds SO SILLY now to even write that. The thing is when I really feel into the expansive place like I do above, when I really SEE, all of the questions drop away and there is this felt sense of completeness. There is no yearning, no desire, no label/story crap. It all falls away.

It IS silly in a way. You're right.

Yes, in terms of really unpleasant sensations. The labeling of the reality is absolutely thought content but I used it to categorize the sensations. And I can see better now how much the labeling of the sensations increases the suffering. Feeling the sting and burn of being hit only lasts but a few seconds but the suffering of "being abused" lasts much longer.

Half right. Sensation is AE, yes. But "unpleasant" is content of thought. You are saying this, but not quite clearly.

None of the stories are real. I see that now. And I see that without all the commentary, the follow-on actions would be the same - people who are hit and don't like it generally leave the person who hits them. I guess boiling things down to the bare bones of AE, loses something for me in these instances.

Maybe it's just me not honoring the positive actual experiences and instead focusing more on the negative.

Correct! None of the stories are real. I brought my incest experience down to "man and girl in room." And even "man," "girl: and "room" are content of thought and not AE, but I was doing The Work of Byron Katie and not LU at the time. Even using The Work, those labels are questioned and found to be stories.

Also, this is NOT about "positive" and "negative." That is just more content of thought! Things just are. We are so used to labeling and duality that it takes a lot of practice to SEE even once you become awake.

Let me know when you feel ready to reply to the final questions again. Most of what you're asking now can be dealt with in Aftercare group and through continuing to LOOK at what is AE. It is going to take time to LOOK at all the untruth you used to hang on to.

Loving,

[iknownothing]

[

Keep it simple. When does a future thought appear? How about ... NOW? :) Can you see this?  

Yes. I can see it.

Let me know when you feel ready to reply to the final questions again. Most of what you're asking now can be dealt with in Aftercare group and through continuing to LOOK at what is AE. It is going to take time to LOOK at all the untruth you used to hang on to. 

Should I repeat the questions on memory?

Thank you for sharing your experiences with me, I'm not sure what to say exactly in response except to share with you that I feel gratitude, more connection and I have more reverence for this process.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Catherine,

To make it easy to find your answers, would you please put all of them in one reply? Be thorough, but concise so that your reply is easy to understand.

You may use some of what you replied before, if it is still true for you.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?


5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Give examples from experience.


5a) What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.


5b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.


6) Anything to add?


Once confirmed, you will receive a PM (top right corner) inviting you to Aftercare Facebook groups, etc.

Loving,
Stacy

[iknownothing]

I wanted to let you know that I am not able to respond to these questions right now as I have limited internet access until Sunday night.

[Anastacia42]

Okay! No hurry.

[iknownothing]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is not a separate "self" and there never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self feels cold and disconnected, cut-off. Realizing that there is no self feels serene, effortless, and warm. The illusion happens when I stop paying attention to actual experiences or what's really happening (reality). Getting lost in the content of thought is how I personally become deluded.

The sensations of peace and liberation return when I refocus on actual experience - what I hear, see, smell, touch, physical body sensations and notice that I have thoughts arise and go. There's so much freedom in focusing on what's really happening.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels liberating to see this. It feels solid, grounded, and in a way complete? To truly not "need" anything - the sense of yearning, desire is there, and I feel it but it's not owning me in a way it once did. And it's very much as described in previous experiences - I have the symphony now. I'm experiencing and aware of multiple senses at once and none are more dominant than the others. It's the whole ACIM - give equal weight to all the things and I struggled with that so much and now I get it.

In terms of what's different, I'm able to have more engaged dialogues (catching myself get defensive, seeing myself pull away from a conversation, there's awareness now where there wasn't before), better able to communicate my needs (I'm sick and usually just dismiss yucky body sensations and push on only to end up sicker, and I didn't last night. I tuned in and felt really sick, went to bed early, drank lots of tea and today I'm feeling better). 

So life is still happening - I haven't won a million dollars, all my challenges and issues still remain, nothing has changed. Yet all of it in a way is okay. This existence for me has been better defined = there is beauty in experiencing everything unfold, 

When you realize that is all that's needed, all that's ever been asked is for you to SEE it all unfold, there is real peace in that.  

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I think all the exercises really worked well together. The symphony one with the different senses and the last one really helped me see - orchestrating. It's been a real belief of mine that that's my job - to be the maestro, to command and control and that last bit, in concert with the other exercises, really helped me SEE that that role I've given myself isn't real. Everything happens regardless of whether I'm orchestrating or not. And that under that belief was something much more profound - that while I'm not directly involved in controlling the symphony of life, I'm able to truly take in all that there is - the moody, broody notes, the high screams of a soprano. It's all there. And while it all might not be enjoyable, it's not my job or role in life to make it stop. It's to accept that things must just be noticed.  

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Give examples from experience.

Decision, intention, free will, choice, and control all imply there is someone to choose, someone to intend something, someone to execute free will, someone to decide between choices and who has control. There is no self so therefore there is no one to decide, intend, choose or who has control.
There are fingers typing letters to form words - this just happens. There is not a self here deciding to write, no self here intending to form words, no self here using her free will to choose to respond. And no one here who has control over whether I write.

5a) What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

Things just happen as they do - I hear the clicking of the keys, I smell the aroma of tea, I feel the rough cushion of the chair on my legs.

5b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I don't think "I'm" responsible for anything except potentially ensuring that I notice when I've become deluded again into thinking there's a separate self. Accepting and seeing that there's no self is effortless but I still sometimes drift back into a separate self when I get lost in the content of my thoughts or stop paying attention to what I'm seeing, smelling, hearing, tasting, touching, sensing.

It's not that I'm responsible for being aware of when I'm separating myself but now that I've experienced seeing life without a self, I'd like to continue living from no self and I still occasionally need to refocus on reality to bring the awareness back on no self.

6) Anything to add? 

Thank you Stacy for being so full of patience and wisdom <3 I have enjoyed this journey and thank you from my heart for helping me wake to reality!

[Anastacia42]

Catherine. that's just beautiful. Your writing is poetic & much calmer.

Thank *you* for your willingness & receptivity. It's a joy to be present as you SEE.

I'll see if there are any further questions. Watch your Private Messages (top right), too.

Loving!

[Anastacia42]

Hi Catherine!

Well done. My name on Facebook is Stacy Ann Clark if you want to connect there.

It's been a joy.

Loving,