Not insightful enough to think the stories are not about me, but for and about you.
Bye Bye
New here - is a guide available ?
Re: New here - is a guide available ?
Awe - just got to be endlessly - right - and ever the 'teacher' ... just don't see the stories are about - no-one. Got to insist they are about 'me' and NOT 'you! How enlightened.
So the insight of the mind let's you know if your projecting or not - now there's a very reliable source.
Sorry to have to remind you - no one's done anything wrong - and guess what - no one's done anything - right - either - which obviously you - think you are - very very - right. Surely you've come across that bit of wisdom ... guess it didn't sink in too far. Ever so - right - and ever so - above - it all. I just love the high and mighty spiritual folks - pontificating about and to poor - pathethic - seekers.
Too bad to see - still no sense of humor - at least your finally done and can move onto - serious - seekers who will - what - what - oh yes ... appreciate .... being saved from the horrors of themselves. Of course - if they behave - really spiritually - they'll be treated ever so kindly and sensitively - what a great bargain. You know - I've actually come to immensely enjoy whatever this was. Still - just as happy it has - finally - come to an 'end'. Carry on savior John ... .
Goodbye happy helpers club.
Sincerely,
The very exclusive - happily un-helped club :)
So the insight of the mind let's you know if your projecting or not - now there's a very reliable source.
Sorry to have to remind you - no one's done anything wrong - and guess what - no one's done anything - right - either - which obviously you - think you are - very very - right. Surely you've come across that bit of wisdom ... guess it didn't sink in too far. Ever so - right - and ever so - above - it all. I just love the high and mighty spiritual folks - pontificating about and to poor - pathethic - seekers.
Too bad to see - still no sense of humor - at least your finally done and can move onto - serious - seekers who will - what - what - oh yes ... appreciate .... being saved from the horrors of themselves. Of course - if they behave - really spiritually - they'll be treated ever so kindly and sensitively - what a great bargain. You know - I've actually come to immensely enjoy whatever this was. Still - just as happy it has - finally - come to an 'end'. Carry on savior John ... .
Goodbye happy helpers club.
Sincerely,
The very exclusive - happily un-helped club :)
Re: New here - is a guide available ?
Rohit:
Hi
BCL ,
Oops ,I am sorry saw your mail today .
My mistake .I am not hurt by your decision .Only thing I am concerned is don't give up .
Continue with SeeEye ,he resonates with you .The thing is I don't like talking much .
My style of guiding is too direct as you said. Only thing that helps is LOOKING at what really is TRUE without conceptualizing .
BCL:
My mail today ...? Not sure what you're referring to.
No seeeye does - not - resonate with me at all ... though he sure tries. Everyone's got their 'zen' sticks/machettes out - or so it seems. Just a rediculous ping pong match. This is actually the first genuine and honest - e-mail I have received from any guide. I thought there was a PM from you ? I was going to look at it later. Anyway - a long awaited swell is just hitting today = I am out the door to surf - likely with the mobs since it's saturday.
By the way, not talking much is fine - it just would have been helpful to me - to just tell me that content isn't going to be helpful at all in this process - esp/and even so called spiritual experiences etc. as the descriptions are all conceptual.
Anyway, surfs up - gotta run for now.
Thank you for checking in,
Rohit:
I don't check my mails regularly .i saw your mail today .you should
have sent PM .Bridget you do have a burning desire to see what is true
but use it in a proper way .it hardly takes a minute of honest looking
to SEE that there is no-self .Believe me .just look at your expectations for what they are ,see if
they point to something real ? Does santa point to something real
?there are thoughts about santa ?there is an image of santa with white
beard and red robe ?but does it point to something real .similarly
look is there an I ?there are thoughts about I?but is there a thinker
controlling thoughts ?what is the source of thoughts ?trace it .where
does this thinker(I) reside ?LOOK !
BCL:
The - i - can only be dishonest ... because it is a lie - that it exists at all.
Right now as I "LOOK" there is only .... 00 ... it is a feeling of quiet openness - those are descriptive words/concepts - really there is nothing ... also a word - seems closer to experience. "I" is a thought memory - a sound sensation - about nothing.
I find no source of thoughts - they appear out of the same open/nothingness ... there is awareness of thoughts .... awareness sees they are not real ... just memory fragments - words about nothing ... so to speak ....
Is attention different from awareness ( this question/thought just came up?) ... when I look - it is seen to be another thought/concept .... it appears to - function in awareness eg attention can seem to rest on thoughts or 'on' perceptions/sensations ..... actually thoughts about attention come and go .... everything is simply sensed .... Out of memory/habit ... thoughts appear to be triggered in what seems to be experienced as a labeling process ... and can - appear - to override the simple noticing of sensation eg seeing shapes colors/ hearing/ feeling/touch ... and then adding a thought label or series of thoughts eg a story line about the labeled sensation. With looking the experience of a habit is flipped ... in a way ... a sense of emptiness or nothingness is primary with thoughts appearing as another sensation like seeing, touching hearing within - however they are known to be meaningless or nothing. Words/thoughts seem to be sounds .... some kind of memory labeling ocurrance which can be seen to be untrue - not attached in the way previously imagined .... memory sounds ... just sounds. This can't be 'known'.
"Conditioning' can appear until it is looked at ... it may appear as an intense thought,emotion/feeling/story ... that - appears - very 'real' ... until it is looked at and seen through. Just as one might viscerally react in a movie theater ... at some point in - 'time' - one becomes aware again ... that one is simply watching a movie ... and there is a relief and relaxation.
Feels like enough for tonight ... it's fine whenever you get this .... I just started writing here.
Thank you Rohit - goodnight.
Rohit:
Nice:) LOOK ,what is doing all the LOOKING ?
BCL:
Still looking ... 'I' have no idea what is doing all the looking ... it is not thoughts - including thoughts of i ... something - not a thing - is aware ... it feels like a knowing that is not knowable ... it feels like a knowing - without a know-er .... however the word knowing doesn't seem like it either as "knowing" can seem to be related to thought however this is not. It seems 'vast' however I can't find a where to it - location doesn't seem to apply.
I have no idea what is looking. I will keep looking ... there isn't an I or anything that is looking ...like what is aware of looking .... 'it' not being a thing or thoughts ... I am not sure there is a word or thought that could apply to what is aware of the sensing - that seems impossible. 'It' - is not the idea of space ... it feels like a knowing sensing awareness ... like it is somehow alive awareness without labels.
I am so far unable to find a way to know - or to describe - what, who, how this awareness is so. Whatever is looking will keep looking ... it is the looking (not as in sight) = back to being aware of looking/noticing ... .
I just re-read your words ... nothing is - "doing" - all the looking ... the question keeps coming - 'what' - is - aware - of looking - of - being aware - of looking/noticing ... .
Thank you again,
b
rOHIT:
LOOK .awareness is always there .there are thoughts ,there are
emotions ,there is awareness of thoughts and emotions......where are
you ???
You are NOTHING .Not awareness or thoughts .you don't exist at all .
Take a LOOK at this .Really do .
Is it true ?
Is it true ?
Keep asking .
LOOK .when i tell you to close your eyes and imagine a surf board in
your hands with all its qualities .there are thoughts, feelings
,sensations and image of surfboard but do they point to something real
?when you open your eyes , is there a surfboard in your hands ? NO
,nothing .
LOOK .what you assume/imagine to be "I" ,doing anything ?
Keep pushing.
BCL:
Anyway, will continue tomorrow - though I will be back at work. .. what is awareness ? It doesn't feel/seem appear as a thing - of course 'things' aren't things either ... hmmm - too tierd right now. Will continue later.
Rohit:
Ok .will be waiting :)
Rohit:
How is it going BCL ?
BCL:
I'm fine - just been extreamly busy at work as I took a week off and then my supervisor is getting ready to be gone for two weeks = ... busy! I will share on my reflectins from your directions this afternoon.
Thank you for checking in.
BCL:OK - yes when I look - I find nothing - eg not a thing I can call a self - which is a concept. When I hold my surf board - there are sensations - including visual sensations - when I open my eyes ... thoughts say there is a surfboard ... 'you' can say there is nothing ... that is redefining - the way thought/mind identifies it's perceptions. I will keep looking ... or whatever looks - will likely continue looking.
rOHIT:
So ,look if there is no you ?what is thinking ?what is breathing ?what
is controlling your heart beat ?is there a YOU controlling anything in
life ?
BCL:
I can't find a thing/me controlling things ... there are thoughts to do things that then happen - usually - not always ... whatever thought calls life - seems/appears ... to be 'doing' everything - or as everyone says - it's just happening ... and that appears to be the case ... still .... there are thoughts of doubt - eg - having experienced for a time - a complete disappearance of - self and all story - and the tremendous sense of release - it was clear as long as the trance of a self is operant ... there will always be a sense of contraction or seeming to perceive from inside a body and self eferenceing thoughts - taken to be real - even though when one looks - it is seen - yet somehow not believed - or not seen fully - in a way that leaves no doubt. For some it happens for others not - for 'me' it seems to come and go here and there ... still I keep looking and finding nothing ... just more thoughts about the matter - the imaginary matter.
Rohit:
You don't have thoughts of self. There ARE thoughts of self. Thoughts of self are only thoughts. They are not a self, are they? They can't be, you've already said that they are thoughts.
If there is a you having thoughts of self, then those thoughts aren't a self, they are just thoughts, aren't they?
Look at the 'I' that has these thoughts.... that is doing the looking. What is it? Where is it? What is it made of?
Doubts are fine, Bridget. What is having the doubts? Where do the doubts come from?
The reason you carry on the way you did before, is that there was never a you, then or to carry on now.
You don't need to remember no-I, because it isn't a belief.
But, yeah, I know what you mean. There is a sense of self, a feeling, a thought, an idea... and when that is operating, it feels like being caught up in the movement.
And then, there is a movement to see the truth that there is not an ACTUAL self. And it's recognized again that it IS a thought, a feeling, an idea. That's all.
It's always true that there is no-self. No I. It may not always FEEL like it. But it IS always true. And real.
Have faith. Because something that is true can't ever be untrue
BCL:
"True" there - are - thoughts about being a 'self' .... there - are - thoughts about all sorts of things/concepts etc ...
Yes 'self' referencing thoughts - are just thoughts - being registered/experienced/sensed by ... ???
I can't find an "I" that has these thoughts, doesn't seem to be a what - there is no-where- to 'it' and it feels empty - alive in some way - yet very empty.
Doubts - are just more thoughts - they seem like part of the sense of contraction ... still just thoughts about no one ...
I 'carried on ' - "because" there never was a 'me? I don't understand what you're meaning by that ... ?
What is conditioning - memory clouds ? More fantasy thoughts (?) ... how is it that an ephemeral thought could seem to 'cause' trigger other thoughts/emotions/sensations/body reactions etc. ... ???
I wonder what 'causes' the 'movement to look - again and again ... ?
Thank 'you' - again and again ...
Rohit:
I is a thought ,isnt it? A thought cannot think .this is opposite to
what we have been fed since childhood ,I is not a soul ,it is just a
thought .it is not a being ,it is just a label .
I want you to have a particular thought ,the thought of "I" .SEE .what
is it ?does it point to something in reality ?is it real ?
Close your eyes after reading this paragraph and find that which is
always present .feelings of aliveness ,aware being-ness ,I am ,stay
with the feeling .is it personal ?it feels personal because for all
those years you thought you exist as a separate being .it's a sense
plus labeliing of mind ME .lool at thoughts as the labelling mechanism
.experience happens ,labelling follows .Noticing ,observation
,witnessing happens ,labels pop right after .
Notice body breathing ,LOOK ,is it breathing by itself or is there a
breather ?Label says I breathe .is there an I that does the breathing
?how about when you sleep ?does breathing need a breather ?
Similarly ,LOOk at walking ,eating ,listening to music ,dancing .what
is doing it ?LOOK CLOSER ,is there a walker ?an eater ?a listener ?a
dancer ?
Right now ,reading happens effortlessly and if you just stop for a
second thoughts appear and start labelling .I is one of thoughts .I
read .Really ?can a thought think ?can a thought do anything ?so is
there a Thinker ?is it true ?keep playing with labelling .apply it to
all activities you do .
BCL:
I - is a thought - and there is sometimes just a sensing of being seperate that implies being an "I" without the specific thought "I".
That is interesting ... that a thought cannot think ... . I don't really know what a thought is other than memory labels = I am not even sure what then "thinking" as a verb is ... just some kind of phenomenal experience ... that i don't really know what it is ... other than some kind of 'abstract' play back naming/identifying loop. i can't find a 'thinker' yet a 'priocess' or experience of thinking/wording happens ... .
Doing the exercise ... awareness/beingness - actually doesn't feel pesonal - it does seem to be aware of or registering or expereincing - a sensation we call/label as personal .... in 'my' experience the - awareness of expereinces - did not feel personal ... in this moment.
Awareness/beingness - whatever we call it - is aware of a sensing or assumption of there being a thinker ... however when looking - none is found. The idea of there needing to be an - originator- or activator -doer - of thoughts and actions is an interesting presumption eg - memory programming of thought/mind. However, if a thought can't think - thought streams are like air streams one can feel/experience in 'space' or awareness..
ROHIT:
Use if/then statements :
if there is no me ,there is no me experiencing experience .find out if
this is actually the case .
If there is no me ,then there is no me thinking thoughts ,just
thinking .see if this is true .
If there is no me ,then identification with the human is false ,its
just a thought with no link to an actual self .check it .
If there is no me .then___. Check all the assumptions if they are true .
Stick to what you can see for sure .not awareness ,but experience .the
feeling of "awareness" is yet another part of experience .
You cannot meaninfully say ,this is what I am ?it just makes no sense
.what you point out as 'this' or 'that' ,is it true ?does it point to
something real ?
You observe the heart feeling ,the mind thinking ,the body acting ,the
very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you percieve .
The sense of being an experiencer ,the sense of "I am" ,is it not just
another experience ?
ROHIT:
are you through ?
BCL:
Oh no - very sorry - I was working all day on taxes again ... I am very sorry - I will focus on this a little later today and get back to you.
One thing that comes up for me is - what is "an actual self"? It seems to be a concept like everything else. Concepts/thoughts seem 'real' as experience seems to be being filtered thru this fantasical medium of whatever thought is. Thought seems to be memory labels as said before.
OK - so I can't find a 'me' just a historical presumption of there being such a 'thing' - such a way of referencing 'within' a world. eg the world only exists as related to this 'me' ness sense. When I look I can't find a me - just a memory thought stream of what this might be.
So it appears there is no 'me' experiencing - just sensations/experiencing full of thoughts - seemingly about - this imaginary meness - as within a heavily labeled 'world'. All I find when I look into this is sensory experience and then many thought labels following .... even though it is so immediate. Also, I don't say or think - the thought label - of the experience - there is often an awareness of the implied label without the actual thought occurring.
So - YES - the sense of " being an experiencer " ... the sense of "I am" is another experience ... however it seems to be a VERY prominent feature of the - experience of 'being an experiencer'. I don't know how to move thru the world with the looking being a primary occurrance ... it ssems as thought there is a director of attention - eg the presumed "I" that for now periodicaly 'remembers' to direct attention that way - actually it just seems to happen thruought the day.
So ther is just the registering of experiences of sensations without and identifieable - yet highly presumed - experiencer or something that registers/notices experiences with or without the labeling function/habit which - is experienced as comming and going.
Also, it seems that you check this at what is night for me here ... and we may have gotten out of sinc when one morning - was it Sunday - I hadn't seen anything from you in the morning and didn't get back to looking till Monday when I was tied in knots around the taxes project. I work till 11 Friday nights = I notice you write then - however I won't see your response till sat monring etc.. . Monday I had planned to get back to you that night and I was so tierd I just went to bed without doing so. Perhaps we wil be back on track this week. Thank you for participating.
Rohit:
You see what has happened here. Each sentence is "it seems, therefore xyz ..." You're stuck in that. You're stuck there in you're imagination worrying about an imaginary scenario with imaginary versions of your self.
You didn't exist before you were born. It's not as if you existed, and then a body with eyes was handed over to you. They're not your eyes, Bridget. Check out when you came into existence, and then owned those eyes, and then began using or controlling them.
Take a deep look at the illusion. Ask yourself is it true? Look at the ins and outs all the different parts, look at what are false assumptions, what is just a thought and what is true in reality. Throw the idea on the fire and let truth be the flames. Look at how you imagine it, what causes you to imagine it. NOT in a general sense. This is a deeply personal experience draw on your own life experiences in this examine instances in your own life question every assumption you built your sense of self on. Burn!!!
Here's what I'm seeing. You're trying to see freedom. You're trying to see what you're trying to realize. Don't do this.
See your keyboard in front of you? Notice how you don't stress to see it? In fact, you couldn't stop seeing it, if you tried. I mean, you could close your eyes, but you cannot willfully see something else. What you seem to be doing is looking, but trying to control what you see. Don't do that. Just look. Passively. If you're not looking in the same passive way as you look at your keyboard, you're not looking at all.
Passively. Look.
bridget lewis
BCL:
My goodness ... It was not my experience that I "worrying" about anything ... just doing my best to report what is noticed in your directive to "LOOK" =looking/seeing.
There is no coming into being ... no begining ... no "i" found - to begin or not begin ... there is just whats happening ... sounds ... sights ... touch/sensation ... and thoughts ... and even interpretations (which are not "true") still experienced ....all just happenings.
"true" ... true for who ... the only 'thing' findable that would be 'true' is so beyond that word ... is completely not describable ... not thinkable ... see-able knowable. Just - not - Knot.
thoughts .. of doubt ... not 'true'. etc.
Rohit:
Go for walk in nature .see how life is flowing? Is there a doer doing
anything ? SEE .do you exist ?
BCL:
Ok - that sounds wonderful ... today no opportunity for that - however over the weekend I will ... see ... what is so.
Thank you Rohit.
ROHIT:
Yep .no issues .let everything unfold and keep investigating .when you
come back write as much as possible ,is there a you living life ? How
does it feel to see this ?
BCL:
Had an interesting night - wrote a lot - just wasn't on the computer - will share some tonight eg later today and see what else is happening. Off to look for some waves before work.
bridget lewis
ROHIT:
I'm just finishing up at work - very tired ...
Last night something seemd to relax and open in a way. I went back to my 'writings' but most I couldn't read as I was writing in mostly darkness late = much was illegible.
Here is a small bit :" It is as though "I" slipped through some invisible crack - I had no idea was 'there' ... of course it became clear there was no crack and no 'I' to slip thru .... I am noticing a sudden visceral body feeling of fear - as if in the sudden recognizing of what feels like an emptiness/ space .... there was a flash 'fear' ... then everything seemed to become very gentle .... and it was like the floor falling away ... like "I" fell off the edge of a horizon .... and all that was left was this beautiful horizon ... "
The usual sense of inside and outside somehow subsided for a while ... everything just felt benevolent ... incredibly intimate ... without self/other ... just being ... all that was occurring ... writing, sensing, breathing, ...
Then today there was noticing some reactivity, self sense ... checking it ... still nothing when looking ... thoughts of wonder, thoughts of doubt ... some fear sensations with the mind saying ... holy shit I have no idea what is happening .... life feeling odd at times ... things occurring ... like loose fitting clothes ... unfamiliar .... evrything just happening yet seen and sensed somehow differently ... everything feels very alive yet spaciously empty ... sometimes something feels missing ... self sense - no self ... seem to be odd constructs ... in a way - not very relevant.
Will continue sitting with whatever is happening ... .
Thank you.
ROHIT:
Good. Keep writing . see if there is no self, does it really matter if
there is a doubt or a fear?
BCL:
It feels like it matters ... as then a further story gets quickly woven as if to reinforce or give 'reason'(?) for the sensations ... however when I look more closely everything like doubt and fear are thoughts and sensations and they are gone into nothing or they may continue but there is a much stronger sense - call it energy/presence whatever - some vibrant nothingness that is somehow uninvolved or unaffected by whatever may appear.
Today I - ha - the body - has been quite sick = a good day for reflection - however at first lot's of depressing thoughts/feelings - then looking etc ... and all that was gone = now body sensations and a quiet sense of 'contentment' for now. Descriptions of anything are funny. However, very little energy available for writing. Will see what else appears today and 'tomorrow'.
Thank you.
ROHIT:
Take rest. when you come back, keep writing. keep looking at what is an assumption and what really is true ?
BCL:
I feel much better today - just resting in the garden ... everything felt very quiet - delicately so .... this will sound strange - the 'quiet' felt so visceral ... sometimes almost 'loud' in a way .... imperceptibly immanent ... .
To write I use words ... then it never feels right. I was going to go to a group in Ojai today and visit with some folks ... so wierd the last few times ... just can't find an impulse to make the drive ... ha - very little drive to do anything ...except surf - and there is NO surf lately - very frustrating says thought (!) ... meanwhile there is just appreciating sitting and drinking this empty openness. Again - words fail. I feel sad though a times with so little drive to do things as I used to ... the mind judges it ... still the quiet remains - uninvolved in the minds little wars - thoughts about thoughts.
Whatever this is - feels very elusive in a way ... certainly to the mind .. it has a misty quality ... really everything is a bit misty like lately. ... though always 'here' ... .
Thank you and goodnight.
ROHIT:
so,is there a you? Is there a doer doing
anything? What is living life?
BCL:
Life is living life ... well ... really life just is happening ... I find no doer when looking - still there is often a presumption of a life story with reactions - as I say that - I notice the belief that this is a problem to be solved - all thoughts = this of course presumes that there is spiritual or preferred behavior etc ...eg that reactions shouldn't happen, suffering is unnecessary - another popular concept which I am not so sure about - eg it feels problematic ... and ... the subject object conception is still apparent ... oddly though ... none of it seems like it shouldn't be so ... eg any of the above ... is life as it is... at the moment this is what is so for this speck ...
So to put a label on 'what' is living life - doesn't feel quite right ... whatever it is is the same 'force/majic/mystery etc ... that beats the heart breathes relaxes and watches life moving along without concern ... .
Not sure I'm getting anywhere - and very not sure there is any 'where' to 'get' ... other than enjoying whatever is drifting endlessly along.
Rohit:
Imagine a child totally immersed in the belief of a tooth fairy. Everybody around her thinks tooth fairies are real. She doesn’t have a chance to discover the truth. Every “sane” child believes there is a real tooth fairy. As soon as she catches the tooth fairy — her mother — in action, the belief disappears. The story is revealed to be a story. The child can’t believe in it anymore, even if she wanted to. Now let’s investigate how much substance is there to self. You just have to catch the “self” in action, that is, observe the processes as they concoct the illusion of self in real time. Then you’ll know the truth.
There is no self. The “I” is made up — have you noticed? Have you looked inside and ever literally found this “I,” this self you have been referring to your whole life? Would you like to take the time to see? It can end the seeing story of this “I,” which will keep you on an endless search for a happiness that is already there — “I need,” “I want,” “I can’t,” “I am not enough” and so on and so on. It could liberate you from the painful story of “I” and all the thoughts that attach to it to protect it and keep it safe. Yet it does not exist.
BCL:
Perhaps a closer analogy might be the belief in - space - can't see it - I'm told that it is an illusion of the mind ... it - seems - to be there - eg it appears to exist - though I can find no real evidence of it ... oddly the belief persists.
So yes - I keep looking and not finding any evidence - except for conditioning - and there are times there is no sense and then if you ask - the mind says there are thoughts of doubt ... just thoughts ... that carry a weight (so to speak) of habit eg presumptions.
The simple fact of awareness - the sense - i am - awareness is aware of everything - and frankly when I sense awareness - it does not share your opinions of there being a problem with - anything - including a sense of self. It seems like you are proposing that awareness (for lack of a better word) has the quality of preferences and whats better. having spent time with no sense of i or story - with no experiencer seperate from experiencing... I know what it is to be free of all that - however - I remain unconvinced that - who and I - can choose to "look" and see what ... nothing is looking and noticing itself as nothing ...meanwhile life goes on with out all the spiritual necessity to state that this moment - should be any different than it is ... whether there is thought, beliefs, in i's or no i ... happiness, sadness suffering or no suffering. Life is.This moment is - well it's already gone as is every moment ... and ... you know what I mean.
it is obvious there is no - i - (fairy) - right along with no tooth fairy ... and as far as - space - is concerned - I doubt the mind will ever be able to wrap itself around that either - this stuff is either intuitively known/seen/ whatever - or not - in any given moment.
If your frustrated that I'm not getting it the way I am supposed to - or in some time frame - I understand - you have given a lot of time and effort - and I sincerely appreciate it - however - I am not going to pretend something that is or isn't so for me. it is up to you if you feel to continue or not. I am fine ... I appreciate the support ... and I'm not sure anything - should be any different than it is.
FYI - my supervisor is gone for two weeks = I'm it in the office - and we were slammed today = I didn't get a chance to take a break and respond till tonight.
BCL:
Oh - no response? Are you leaving - or pausing - or? I hope I didn't say anything to offend you - you have been very kind. I made an attempt to be honest - however e-mails can be challenging as it is hard to 'hear' inflectin etc.
Well ... let me know.
Thank you Rohit.
ROHIT:
I have some work to do. Will be
back in 6hrs.
BCL:
Oh - that's fine ... Well - very good then :)
So you're working too - while I sleep - well we'll keep the world covered in worker bees.
Alright tooth fairy ... I'll be looking under my pillow in the morning for whatever treasures you may have left.
Thank you again,
Rohit:
"Perhaps a closer analogy might be the belief in - space - can't see it - I'm told that it is an illusion of the mind ... it - seems - to be there - eg it appears to exist - though I can find no real evidence of it ... oddly the belief persists.the mind says there are thoughts of doubt ... just thoughts ... that carry a weight (so to speak) of habit eg presumptions.So yes - I keep looking and not finding any evidence - except for conditioning - and there are times there is no sense and then if you ask -"
This requires four seconds of looking, right now. There is no you. There's no you looking for "truth" or "no-self", there's just a body looking for no-self. That's all. You're not going to see something that does not exist. You can't see the absence of something. Stop looking for the fact that you do not exist. It is inherently impossible to see.
What you CAN see is that every time your mind mentions the word "I", or has a thought about "self" or "me", that's all it is. A thought. Seriously. A useless thought. So where are you?
Look at that. See the truth of that. Every time you encounter "you" is through thought. Is that true? Don't take my word for it. Look and confirm it. Seriously. Look. Where is "I" experienced?
Where are you, if every time "you" pops up is through thought? There is something behind your eyes doing the looking?
"The simple fact of awareness - the sense - i am - awareness is aware of everything - and frankly when I sense awareness - it does not share your opinions of there being a problem with - anything - including a sense of self. It seems like you are proposing that awareness (for lack of a better word) has the quality of preferences and whats better."
when you are sleeping, body is alive, mind working, awareness is there .ok. Awareness is always there, if you want it or not .but what is experiencing awareness?
Consider it. The notion of "experiencer" implies that is a divide between experience and experiencer. But experiencer is experienced! So where is the divide?
If there is no divide, what is the experiencer?
BCL:
Am slammed at work and need to get a few waves in after = I will respond much later tonight.
I am looking forward to sitting with your message and seeing what comes up.
BCL:
Hmmmm . a lot to sit with .... is there an experiencing awareness (?) .... or simply awareness?
How could a body be looking for no self - which is a concept? Isn't there just a thought or thoughts - about looking for the concept of no self ... for me - it seems that the body is just sensations in awareness - that thought has labeled - a body -. Is "a body" and different than 'an I' ? eg both are concepts/labels = how could a label look for anything. Besides the sensation of sight can operate free of so called bodily 'location' anyway. = I don't feel clear about a body looking for a concept called 'no self'. or 'self for that matter - which is only a concept.
You said something interesting a while back that I keep ruminating about - that thoughts don't think ... what is thinking ... that sailor bob talks about "cognizing awareness" ... is cognizing a quality of awareness? It still feels like there is this presumptions of a reference point with this story line trailer hovering like a shadow 'everywhere' the body goes. When 'I' look - there is nothing - including no looker - just looking and noticing nothing .. the spacious emptiness - even thought I can't find 'space either.
I AGREE - it is impossible to 'see' the nonxistence of something called a self eg a thought.
I don't even know what a thought is ... nothing is findable - it feels like nothing exists - just sensations and floating thoughts - which I can't really even say are floating ... thoughts just seem to be audible conceptual soundings.
I need to sit with what you have shared here - there is a richness to it.
Time for bed - got some surfing in and an unexpected visitor = I got to this later than planned - so much for plans ... the universe is just one big crack for all plans to eventually fall into.
Thank you Rohit.
ROHIT:
Investigate whether you exist in any way other than as a thought. One way to do this is to examine everything that you think you are in the following way: Am I a body? If so, can a body exist in any way other than as the thought of it? How would I know? Am I a mind? If so, can a mind exist in any way other than as the thought of it? How would I know? Am I a …..? etc. In this way, investigate everything that you imagine yourself to be. keep writing.
BCL:
I sat with this for a while today - will have more time tomorrow .. and there was one moment when I noticed a smell ... and then there was a distinct gap ... before thought showed up to interpret - what the smell was. That doesn;t sound like much - however - it was such a lucid moment of just sensing before - the happening/sensatin of a smell - felt velcroed to thought/abstraction. It was like a moment of simple non-separate and non conceptual experiencing.
Something exists in an alive way... that experiences ... prior to thought. Still - thoughts themselves are sensed - experienced. The locality aspect feels less certain today eg the locality of experiencing sensations ... the body is like a confined or localized grouping of sensations ... yet that is thought about experieincing sensations. The conceptualization of ' a body' is thought ... and not the identified sensations ... without thought there could be no "body" ... just experieincing of sensations. The thought os "I" is memory ... thought streams.
I don't know what mind is - other than a realm of thoughts ... thought streams or clusters. The visual sensations are the most challenging. Perhaps that is why a gap was experienced with smell - as it is likely my least interpreted of the senses and one i identiy with the least ... whereas sight feels like part of me ... the way a me is cognized ... in the me and objectified world.
Sometimes there is a sense of vastness - not confined to body sensations ... there is sometimes fear with this ... and the mind/thought seems to try to rationalize the feeling back into something manageable ... eg more known/identifieable. At the same time, the locus and space thing often seems to have no size or - place - or whereness ... so the word vast ... is as uncertain as space.
The story and social conditioning of patterned responses/reactions continues here and there ... even though it is mroe obvious nothing can be said of anything that is experienced - except with thought. There is an intuited (energetic?) way of experiencing where concepts don't fit very well ... of self, body or mind ... the concepts and thoughts continue ... even as some non linear sensing is also present - however unnameable - unexplainable.
Something is aware of the self/other thoughts and concpetual way of noticing - and there is more ... there is something that is aware of this ... just as it is of thoughts/sensations .. at the moment there is an odd sense of potency to it ... for lack of a better description ... descriptions feel burdensome at the moment - almost distracting from this potent awareness ... I am begining to resent words - though they are innocent (ha - more thought).
I will continue to be with this tomorrow.
Thank you Rohit.
ROHIT:
LOOK, Thoughts may arise- is there any thinker causing the thoughts to occur, anyone who is thinking the thoughts?
Sensations may arise- is there any sensor sensing these sensations, or just sensations arising?
Emotions may arise- is there a feeler feeling them, or just feelings arising?
Actions may be done- is there an actor doing these, or just actions being done?
BCL:
Hi Rohit:
Very sorry about the absence ... was out late and got up late ... and lots of stuff going on with my twin sister.
Anyway ... there has been much opportunity to notice this person/"character" whatever jumble of conditioning - getting triggered in fun ways and not fun ways .... and there were times of a lot of interpersonal stuff - dynamic conversations and suddenly in the midst of it all this amazing very visceral energetic space wide open and untouched by all the stuff that was going on.
What was most interesting about that - was it was so clear that no one was doing anything to - cause this sense of highly energetic opening in the heart area - right in the midst of folks having a high level debate political conversation. Then after a time - 'i' joined back in the conversation and the sensations and awareness of the opening sense dissipated. So whatever thoughts were occurring and speaking and listening ..... was all just happening .... and the awareness of the prior energetic spaciousness - just occurred as well. it caught my attention.
The troublesome stuff with my sister who is very ill ... was more challenging and seemed to hook conditioning in ways that attention was very mesmerized and upsetting emotions and thoughts were active. Even with awareness noticing it was occurring ... there was little - space ... thoughts etc were prominent .... and emotional discomfort was there. Then there were countering thoughts about wanting to - be peaceful again - it was not easy to remain aware of the awareness - as it were. Then finally late this afternoon ... there was a noticing of another seemingly spontaneous shift of relaxation and openness emotionally and thoughts etc. Nothing circumstantially had changed ... however everything felt different and softened ... which the "i" -mind/thoughts - preferred - eg thoughts - interpretations occurred.
There were thoughts about discouragement about ever 'seeing thru' the "i" ... all thoughts/emotions ... showing up for no one ... except the ongoing thoughts about being a someone. There are thoughts about - if i could just live under my favorite tree and "look" most of the day ... that would somehow be better ... but for who or what? it is a funny dilemma that mind/thought weaves. I keep looking and finding nothing ... mostly sensations ... however with interpersonal challenges... it seems the thoughts about 'my' life situation etc arise .... then the mind declares the un-find-able 'i' is getting no where. It is a thought ... however the complex of thoughts/emotions/ and involvements in the world seem to conspire to entangle rather than release ... right when things seemed to be relaxing around "i" mesmerization.
Certain thoughts are just seen - without emotions - while others seem very sticky and heavily involved in the "I" story ... all of which is obviously thought - emotion stuff - seeming 'real' for a time and then - not. Any suggestions? Thoughts and feelings may be ephemeral - however some register in awareness in a very impactful way = ? Conditioning seems to be thought clouds or streams that a great deal of attention and belief - has been given to - and such thoughts/emotions seem very persistent and repetitive = any suggestions as to how to loosen the seeming grip of conditioning .... other than continue to notice their falseness and that they are simply thoughts and feelings arising ... the 'my life story' things = feels griping and 'real' when conditioning is active.
OK
Thank you Rohit ... that's it for tonight.
ROHIT:
Have you ever experienced Awareness? What is the contradiction in that question?
What is it that is aware of Awareness? Is it a thought or feeling, or neither? Can it be present without thoughts or feelings? Can thoughts or feelings be present without it? Now look around you and see whether "external" objects can exist without your awareness of them. If they cannot, what does that imply about these objects? What does that imply about you?
Do the following exercise with your eyes closed while looking past your thoughts directly at the sensations themselves.
What is your immediate non conceptual experience of the following:
1. There are sounds, but is there something making the sounds?
2. There are sensations of touch and pressure, but is there something causing the sensations?
yeah, I know what you mean. There is a sense of self, a feeling, a thought, an idea... and when that is operating, it feels like being caught up in the movement.
And then, there is a movement to see the truth that there is not an ACTUAL self. And it's recognized again that it IS a thought, a feeling, an idea. That's all.
It's always true that there is no-self. No I. It may not always FEEL like it. But it IS always true. And real.
BCL:
Hi Rohit:
I wish I could separate out and quote you - oh well.
So the contradiction that came up for me was - well if I can't find the I/you .... what is the experiencer? When there has been full unity experiences - being all - no experiencer separate from the experiencing for a time .... then it is lucidly so. However, that is just a memory = it does not even exist - which is very odd - except as a thought/memory.
Thoughts and feelings are not what is aware ... awareness is certainly present with or without thoughts or feelings - however the reverse is not experienced as possible. I don't know if perceived objects can exist without awareness ... there is only awareness when the sensation/experience of perception of them occurrs. Some other 'person' in a room could report objects behind me are 'there' - however - if there is not the perception in awareness... here then the possibility remains conceptual. To speculate about what it means is uncertain ... other than there is no verification of the existence of "I" or objects - which are simply sensations appearing and dissappearing. Like floating in the ocean with ones eyes closed - there are many many sensations - pressures - that seem less differentiated as things - only because we so rarely enter that domain that languaging labels are less familiar .... and the constancy of the changes is obvious ... perhaps due to the environment being less familiar and so less analyzed .... much less memory labels are established in 'mind'. makes a good story anyway. :)
I heard last night about another finding that an atom actually "exists" everywhere - eg is not localized ... until there is an observer = reminiscent of similar findings I've heard of = to "know' these things with thought is postulation ... = the world and most beliefs are postulations or fantasies ... and only experienceable as sensations ... beyond that they are thoughts-labels-interpretations = memories ... of/about the sensations.
No when I do the exercise ... there are only memories learned abstractions about "causes" of sensations ... really they are only experienced. ... And most wierdly - an experiencer can't be found ... only presumed/assumed. Also - with eyes closed - the sense of an experiencer is muted and much less ... when eyes are opened there is such a habituated labeling and spatial eg distance sense - that there is a sense/presumption of something unknown - expereincing the percieved "objects" as seperate from the experiencing. When I sit and look more closely it is less obvious ... still a lingering presumption - however baseless.
I presume - however unwise it is to presume anything - that the more one looks that perhaps the less 'caught/,mesmerized - by the thoughts and feelings that arise as part of what we call conditioning - which is experienced as rapid fire clusters of thoughts/feelings - may subside ??? As the sense of presumed self is - perhaps gradually - and sometimes suddenly - seen/realized to not exist.
ROHIT:
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way,
shape or form? Was there ever? how about
self, is there anything that is separate from
everything else?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of
separate self is, when it starts and how it
works.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in
detail.
4) How would you describe it to somebody
who has never heard about this illusion but is
curious about it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over,
made you look? was there a specific moment
when seeing happened or was it gradual?
what exactly happened?
BCL:
1. No "me" found ... it is a thought/concept .... thoughts and concepts do continue to arise as does conditioning ... doubts .... about the "I" story - however whenever it is looked at nothing is found. ... 'Was there ever' ... I can't speak to that ... ever is - just now - nothing is found ... other than thoughts about time space. could arise - but haven't ... 'Separation' ... there are thoughts about perceptions ...presumptions ... that occur ... if the contents of thoughts were 'true' one might say separation is true ... there are presumptions - thoughts about appearances - however experientially it doesn't 'exist' - only mind could interpret and comment on that.
2. The separate self is a learned hypnotic thought stream ... that if unquestioned seems to operate in time space ... if attention gets mesmerized in thought story - the I thought/presumption appears 'real' - if attention looks - it can't be found - except as a thought ... if thoughts are believed - the I may seem real ... and so does 'other' then from that reference point ... if one is experiencing thoughts as simply one aspect of the - scenery - ... then "I" is taken much less seriously - eg it's as real as snow white ... we may love the story - however it is known to be just a story ... a fantasy ... one might enjoy fantasizing here or there - or not.
3. When attention/awareness is noticing this ... I could say there is a soft appreciation .. an energetic quiet ... which at times may seem more or less potent ... that doesn;t matter ... it's just another noticing that mind then describes .. the describing is completely inadequate = .... a resting quiet ... in endless appreciation .... is simply the underlying basis of all this wonder.
4. I'd just sent them to you all ...or to the many others who enjoy sharing such things. Words seem too inadequate ... I'm just enjoying some intuitively felt - energetic quiet ... that is enjoying the show - including the dance of thoughts feelings actions reactions .... the world is fine with or without 'my' input'. And at the moment I don't feel drawn to describe much of anything ... except when it happens like here.
5. Hmmmm ... seeing has always been - except according to the mind ... which could say the same thing again (eg seeing/not seeing blah blah) ... who could say .... there have been many dramatic "shifts" of "seeing" before ...subtler ones since being here ...and ... a "shift" ... a seeing - is just another description of a sensing - or a "knowing" in the awareness ... when is that ever not occurring ?
Ok Rohit - here are "my responses " ... Thank you so much for everything ... wheee .. . quite a ride - says the mind :) ... meanwhile ... tonight - there is the wonderful enjoyment of - quiet appreciation - for so much.
Aloha,
Hi
BCL ,
Oops ,I am sorry saw your mail today .
My mistake .I am not hurt by your decision .Only thing I am concerned is don't give up .
Continue with SeeEye ,he resonates with you .The thing is I don't like talking much .
My style of guiding is too direct as you said. Only thing that helps is LOOKING at what really is TRUE without conceptualizing .
BCL:
My mail today ...? Not sure what you're referring to.
No seeeye does - not - resonate with me at all ... though he sure tries. Everyone's got their 'zen' sticks/machettes out - or so it seems. Just a rediculous ping pong match. This is actually the first genuine and honest - e-mail I have received from any guide. I thought there was a PM from you ? I was going to look at it later. Anyway - a long awaited swell is just hitting today = I am out the door to surf - likely with the mobs since it's saturday.
By the way, not talking much is fine - it just would have been helpful to me - to just tell me that content isn't going to be helpful at all in this process - esp/and even so called spiritual experiences etc. as the descriptions are all conceptual.
Anyway, surfs up - gotta run for now.
Thank you for checking in,
Rohit:
I don't check my mails regularly .i saw your mail today .you should
have sent PM .Bridget you do have a burning desire to see what is true
but use it in a proper way .it hardly takes a minute of honest looking
to SEE that there is no-self .Believe me .just look at your expectations for what they are ,see if
they point to something real ? Does santa point to something real
?there are thoughts about santa ?there is an image of santa with white
beard and red robe ?but does it point to something real .similarly
look is there an I ?there are thoughts about I?but is there a thinker
controlling thoughts ?what is the source of thoughts ?trace it .where
does this thinker(I) reside ?LOOK !
BCL:
The - i - can only be dishonest ... because it is a lie - that it exists at all.
Right now as I "LOOK" there is only .... 00 ... it is a feeling of quiet openness - those are descriptive words/concepts - really there is nothing ... also a word - seems closer to experience. "I" is a thought memory - a sound sensation - about nothing.
I find no source of thoughts - they appear out of the same open/nothingness ... there is awareness of thoughts .... awareness sees they are not real ... just memory fragments - words about nothing ... so to speak ....
Is attention different from awareness ( this question/thought just came up?) ... when I look - it is seen to be another thought/concept .... it appears to - function in awareness eg attention can seem to rest on thoughts or 'on' perceptions/sensations ..... actually thoughts about attention come and go .... everything is simply sensed .... Out of memory/habit ... thoughts appear to be triggered in what seems to be experienced as a labeling process ... and can - appear - to override the simple noticing of sensation eg seeing shapes colors/ hearing/ feeling/touch ... and then adding a thought label or series of thoughts eg a story line about the labeled sensation. With looking the experience of a habit is flipped ... in a way ... a sense of emptiness or nothingness is primary with thoughts appearing as another sensation like seeing, touching hearing within - however they are known to be meaningless or nothing. Words/thoughts seem to be sounds .... some kind of memory labeling ocurrance which can be seen to be untrue - not attached in the way previously imagined .... memory sounds ... just sounds. This can't be 'known'.
"Conditioning' can appear until it is looked at ... it may appear as an intense thought,emotion/feeling/story ... that - appears - very 'real' ... until it is looked at and seen through. Just as one might viscerally react in a movie theater ... at some point in - 'time' - one becomes aware again ... that one is simply watching a movie ... and there is a relief and relaxation.
Feels like enough for tonight ... it's fine whenever you get this .... I just started writing here.
Thank you Rohit - goodnight.
Rohit:
Nice:) LOOK ,what is doing all the LOOKING ?
BCL:
Still looking ... 'I' have no idea what is doing all the looking ... it is not thoughts - including thoughts of i ... something - not a thing - is aware ... it feels like a knowing that is not knowable ... it feels like a knowing - without a know-er .... however the word knowing doesn't seem like it either as "knowing" can seem to be related to thought however this is not. It seems 'vast' however I can't find a where to it - location doesn't seem to apply.
I have no idea what is looking. I will keep looking ... there isn't an I or anything that is looking ...like what is aware of looking .... 'it' not being a thing or thoughts ... I am not sure there is a word or thought that could apply to what is aware of the sensing - that seems impossible. 'It' - is not the idea of space ... it feels like a knowing sensing awareness ... like it is somehow alive awareness without labels.
I am so far unable to find a way to know - or to describe - what, who, how this awareness is so. Whatever is looking will keep looking ... it is the looking (not as in sight) = back to being aware of looking/noticing ... .
I just re-read your words ... nothing is - "doing" - all the looking ... the question keeps coming - 'what' - is - aware - of looking - of - being aware - of looking/noticing ... .
Thank you again,
b
rOHIT:
LOOK .awareness is always there .there are thoughts ,there are
emotions ,there is awareness of thoughts and emotions......where are
you ???
You are NOTHING .Not awareness or thoughts .you don't exist at all .
Take a LOOK at this .Really do .
Is it true ?
Is it true ?
Keep asking .
LOOK .when i tell you to close your eyes and imagine a surf board in
your hands with all its qualities .there are thoughts, feelings
,sensations and image of surfboard but do they point to something real
?when you open your eyes , is there a surfboard in your hands ? NO
,nothing .
LOOK .what you assume/imagine to be "I" ,doing anything ?
Keep pushing.
BCL:
Anyway, will continue tomorrow - though I will be back at work. .. what is awareness ? It doesn't feel/seem appear as a thing - of course 'things' aren't things either ... hmmm - too tierd right now. Will continue later.
Rohit:
Ok .will be waiting :)
Rohit:
How is it going BCL ?
BCL:
I'm fine - just been extreamly busy at work as I took a week off and then my supervisor is getting ready to be gone for two weeks = ... busy! I will share on my reflectins from your directions this afternoon.
Thank you for checking in.
BCL:OK - yes when I look - I find nothing - eg not a thing I can call a self - which is a concept. When I hold my surf board - there are sensations - including visual sensations - when I open my eyes ... thoughts say there is a surfboard ... 'you' can say there is nothing ... that is redefining - the way thought/mind identifies it's perceptions. I will keep looking ... or whatever looks - will likely continue looking.
rOHIT:
So ,look if there is no you ?what is thinking ?what is breathing ?what
is controlling your heart beat ?is there a YOU controlling anything in
life ?
BCL:
I can't find a thing/me controlling things ... there are thoughts to do things that then happen - usually - not always ... whatever thought calls life - seems/appears ... to be 'doing' everything - or as everyone says - it's just happening ... and that appears to be the case ... still .... there are thoughts of doubt - eg - having experienced for a time - a complete disappearance of - self and all story - and the tremendous sense of release - it was clear as long as the trance of a self is operant ... there will always be a sense of contraction or seeming to perceive from inside a body and self eferenceing thoughts - taken to be real - even though when one looks - it is seen - yet somehow not believed - or not seen fully - in a way that leaves no doubt. For some it happens for others not - for 'me' it seems to come and go here and there ... still I keep looking and finding nothing ... just more thoughts about the matter - the imaginary matter.
Rohit:
You don't have thoughts of self. There ARE thoughts of self. Thoughts of self are only thoughts. They are not a self, are they? They can't be, you've already said that they are thoughts.
If there is a you having thoughts of self, then those thoughts aren't a self, they are just thoughts, aren't they?
Look at the 'I' that has these thoughts.... that is doing the looking. What is it? Where is it? What is it made of?
Doubts are fine, Bridget. What is having the doubts? Where do the doubts come from?
The reason you carry on the way you did before, is that there was never a you, then or to carry on now.
You don't need to remember no-I, because it isn't a belief.
But, yeah, I know what you mean. There is a sense of self, a feeling, a thought, an idea... and when that is operating, it feels like being caught up in the movement.
And then, there is a movement to see the truth that there is not an ACTUAL self. And it's recognized again that it IS a thought, a feeling, an idea. That's all.
It's always true that there is no-self. No I. It may not always FEEL like it. But it IS always true. And real.
Have faith. Because something that is true can't ever be untrue
BCL:
"True" there - are - thoughts about being a 'self' .... there - are - thoughts about all sorts of things/concepts etc ...
Yes 'self' referencing thoughts - are just thoughts - being registered/experienced/sensed by ... ???
I can't find an "I" that has these thoughts, doesn't seem to be a what - there is no-where- to 'it' and it feels empty - alive in some way - yet very empty.
Doubts - are just more thoughts - they seem like part of the sense of contraction ... still just thoughts about no one ...
I 'carried on ' - "because" there never was a 'me? I don't understand what you're meaning by that ... ?
What is conditioning - memory clouds ? More fantasy thoughts (?) ... how is it that an ephemeral thought could seem to 'cause' trigger other thoughts/emotions/sensations/body reactions etc. ... ???
I wonder what 'causes' the 'movement to look - again and again ... ?
Thank 'you' - again and again ...
Rohit:
I is a thought ,isnt it? A thought cannot think .this is opposite to
what we have been fed since childhood ,I is not a soul ,it is just a
thought .it is not a being ,it is just a label .
I want you to have a particular thought ,the thought of "I" .SEE .what
is it ?does it point to something in reality ?is it real ?
Close your eyes after reading this paragraph and find that which is
always present .feelings of aliveness ,aware being-ness ,I am ,stay
with the feeling .is it personal ?it feels personal because for all
those years you thought you exist as a separate being .it's a sense
plus labeliing of mind ME .lool at thoughts as the labelling mechanism
.experience happens ,labelling follows .Noticing ,observation
,witnessing happens ,labels pop right after .
Notice body breathing ,LOOK ,is it breathing by itself or is there a
breather ?Label says I breathe .is there an I that does the breathing
?how about when you sleep ?does breathing need a breather ?
Similarly ,LOOk at walking ,eating ,listening to music ,dancing .what
is doing it ?LOOK CLOSER ,is there a walker ?an eater ?a listener ?a
dancer ?
Right now ,reading happens effortlessly and if you just stop for a
second thoughts appear and start labelling .I is one of thoughts .I
read .Really ?can a thought think ?can a thought do anything ?so is
there a Thinker ?is it true ?keep playing with labelling .apply it to
all activities you do .
BCL:
I - is a thought - and there is sometimes just a sensing of being seperate that implies being an "I" without the specific thought "I".
That is interesting ... that a thought cannot think ... . I don't really know what a thought is other than memory labels = I am not even sure what then "thinking" as a verb is ... just some kind of phenomenal experience ... that i don't really know what it is ... other than some kind of 'abstract' play back naming/identifying loop. i can't find a 'thinker' yet a 'priocess' or experience of thinking/wording happens ... .
Doing the exercise ... awareness/beingness - actually doesn't feel pesonal - it does seem to be aware of or registering or expereincing - a sensation we call/label as personal .... in 'my' experience the - awareness of expereinces - did not feel personal ... in this moment.
Awareness/beingness - whatever we call it - is aware of a sensing or assumption of there being a thinker ... however when looking - none is found. The idea of there needing to be an - originator- or activator -doer - of thoughts and actions is an interesting presumption eg - memory programming of thought/mind. However, if a thought can't think - thought streams are like air streams one can feel/experience in 'space' or awareness..
ROHIT:
Use if/then statements :
if there is no me ,there is no me experiencing experience .find out if
this is actually the case .
If there is no me ,then there is no me thinking thoughts ,just
thinking .see if this is true .
If there is no me ,then identification with the human is false ,its
just a thought with no link to an actual self .check it .
If there is no me .then___. Check all the assumptions if they are true .
Stick to what you can see for sure .not awareness ,but experience .the
feeling of "awareness" is yet another part of experience .
You cannot meaninfully say ,this is what I am ?it just makes no sense
.what you point out as 'this' or 'that' ,is it true ?does it point to
something real ?
You observe the heart feeling ,the mind thinking ,the body acting ,the
very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you percieve .
The sense of being an experiencer ,the sense of "I am" ,is it not just
another experience ?
ROHIT:
are you through ?
BCL:
Oh no - very sorry - I was working all day on taxes again ... I am very sorry - I will focus on this a little later today and get back to you.
One thing that comes up for me is - what is "an actual self"? It seems to be a concept like everything else. Concepts/thoughts seem 'real' as experience seems to be being filtered thru this fantasical medium of whatever thought is. Thought seems to be memory labels as said before.
OK - so I can't find a 'me' just a historical presumption of there being such a 'thing' - such a way of referencing 'within' a world. eg the world only exists as related to this 'me' ness sense. When I look I can't find a me - just a memory thought stream of what this might be.
So it appears there is no 'me' experiencing - just sensations/experiencing full of thoughts - seemingly about - this imaginary meness - as within a heavily labeled 'world'. All I find when I look into this is sensory experience and then many thought labels following .... even though it is so immediate. Also, I don't say or think - the thought label - of the experience - there is often an awareness of the implied label without the actual thought occurring.
So - YES - the sense of " being an experiencer " ... the sense of "I am" is another experience ... however it seems to be a VERY prominent feature of the - experience of 'being an experiencer'. I don't know how to move thru the world with the looking being a primary occurrance ... it ssems as thought there is a director of attention - eg the presumed "I" that for now periodicaly 'remembers' to direct attention that way - actually it just seems to happen thruought the day.
So ther is just the registering of experiences of sensations without and identifieable - yet highly presumed - experiencer or something that registers/notices experiences with or without the labeling function/habit which - is experienced as comming and going.
Also, it seems that you check this at what is night for me here ... and we may have gotten out of sinc when one morning - was it Sunday - I hadn't seen anything from you in the morning and didn't get back to looking till Monday when I was tied in knots around the taxes project. I work till 11 Friday nights = I notice you write then - however I won't see your response till sat monring etc.. . Monday I had planned to get back to you that night and I was so tierd I just went to bed without doing so. Perhaps we wil be back on track this week. Thank you for participating.
Rohit:
You see what has happened here. Each sentence is "it seems, therefore xyz ..." You're stuck in that. You're stuck there in you're imagination worrying about an imaginary scenario with imaginary versions of your self.
You didn't exist before you were born. It's not as if you existed, and then a body with eyes was handed over to you. They're not your eyes, Bridget. Check out when you came into existence, and then owned those eyes, and then began using or controlling them.
Take a deep look at the illusion. Ask yourself is it true? Look at the ins and outs all the different parts, look at what are false assumptions, what is just a thought and what is true in reality. Throw the idea on the fire and let truth be the flames. Look at how you imagine it, what causes you to imagine it. NOT in a general sense. This is a deeply personal experience draw on your own life experiences in this examine instances in your own life question every assumption you built your sense of self on. Burn!!!
Here's what I'm seeing. You're trying to see freedom. You're trying to see what you're trying to realize. Don't do this.
See your keyboard in front of you? Notice how you don't stress to see it? In fact, you couldn't stop seeing it, if you tried. I mean, you could close your eyes, but you cannot willfully see something else. What you seem to be doing is looking, but trying to control what you see. Don't do that. Just look. Passively. If you're not looking in the same passive way as you look at your keyboard, you're not looking at all.
Passively. Look.
bridget lewis
BCL:
My goodness ... It was not my experience that I "worrying" about anything ... just doing my best to report what is noticed in your directive to "LOOK" =looking/seeing.
There is no coming into being ... no begining ... no "i" found - to begin or not begin ... there is just whats happening ... sounds ... sights ... touch/sensation ... and thoughts ... and even interpretations (which are not "true") still experienced ....all just happenings.
"true" ... true for who ... the only 'thing' findable that would be 'true' is so beyond that word ... is completely not describable ... not thinkable ... see-able knowable. Just - not - Knot.
thoughts .. of doubt ... not 'true'. etc.
Rohit:
Go for walk in nature .see how life is flowing? Is there a doer doing
anything ? SEE .do you exist ?
BCL:
Ok - that sounds wonderful ... today no opportunity for that - however over the weekend I will ... see ... what is so.
Thank you Rohit.
ROHIT:
Yep .no issues .let everything unfold and keep investigating .when you
come back write as much as possible ,is there a you living life ? How
does it feel to see this ?
BCL:
Had an interesting night - wrote a lot - just wasn't on the computer - will share some tonight eg later today and see what else is happening. Off to look for some waves before work.
bridget lewis
ROHIT:
I'm just finishing up at work - very tired ...
Last night something seemd to relax and open in a way. I went back to my 'writings' but most I couldn't read as I was writing in mostly darkness late = much was illegible.
Here is a small bit :" It is as though "I" slipped through some invisible crack - I had no idea was 'there' ... of course it became clear there was no crack and no 'I' to slip thru .... I am noticing a sudden visceral body feeling of fear - as if in the sudden recognizing of what feels like an emptiness/ space .... there was a flash 'fear' ... then everything seemed to become very gentle .... and it was like the floor falling away ... like "I" fell off the edge of a horizon .... and all that was left was this beautiful horizon ... "
The usual sense of inside and outside somehow subsided for a while ... everything just felt benevolent ... incredibly intimate ... without self/other ... just being ... all that was occurring ... writing, sensing, breathing, ...
Then today there was noticing some reactivity, self sense ... checking it ... still nothing when looking ... thoughts of wonder, thoughts of doubt ... some fear sensations with the mind saying ... holy shit I have no idea what is happening .... life feeling odd at times ... things occurring ... like loose fitting clothes ... unfamiliar .... evrything just happening yet seen and sensed somehow differently ... everything feels very alive yet spaciously empty ... sometimes something feels missing ... self sense - no self ... seem to be odd constructs ... in a way - not very relevant.
Will continue sitting with whatever is happening ... .
Thank you.
ROHIT:
Good. Keep writing . see if there is no self, does it really matter if
there is a doubt or a fear?
BCL:
It feels like it matters ... as then a further story gets quickly woven as if to reinforce or give 'reason'(?) for the sensations ... however when I look more closely everything like doubt and fear are thoughts and sensations and they are gone into nothing or they may continue but there is a much stronger sense - call it energy/presence whatever - some vibrant nothingness that is somehow uninvolved or unaffected by whatever may appear.
Today I - ha - the body - has been quite sick = a good day for reflection - however at first lot's of depressing thoughts/feelings - then looking etc ... and all that was gone = now body sensations and a quiet sense of 'contentment' for now. Descriptions of anything are funny. However, very little energy available for writing. Will see what else appears today and 'tomorrow'.
Thank you.
ROHIT:
Take rest. when you come back, keep writing. keep looking at what is an assumption and what really is true ?
BCL:
I feel much better today - just resting in the garden ... everything felt very quiet - delicately so .... this will sound strange - the 'quiet' felt so visceral ... sometimes almost 'loud' in a way .... imperceptibly immanent ... .
To write I use words ... then it never feels right. I was going to go to a group in Ojai today and visit with some folks ... so wierd the last few times ... just can't find an impulse to make the drive ... ha - very little drive to do anything ...except surf - and there is NO surf lately - very frustrating says thought (!) ... meanwhile there is just appreciating sitting and drinking this empty openness. Again - words fail. I feel sad though a times with so little drive to do things as I used to ... the mind judges it ... still the quiet remains - uninvolved in the minds little wars - thoughts about thoughts.
Whatever this is - feels very elusive in a way ... certainly to the mind .. it has a misty quality ... really everything is a bit misty like lately. ... though always 'here' ... .
Thank you and goodnight.
ROHIT:
so,is there a you? Is there a doer doing
anything? What is living life?
BCL:
Life is living life ... well ... really life just is happening ... I find no doer when looking - still there is often a presumption of a life story with reactions - as I say that - I notice the belief that this is a problem to be solved - all thoughts = this of course presumes that there is spiritual or preferred behavior etc ...eg that reactions shouldn't happen, suffering is unnecessary - another popular concept which I am not so sure about - eg it feels problematic ... and ... the subject object conception is still apparent ... oddly though ... none of it seems like it shouldn't be so ... eg any of the above ... is life as it is... at the moment this is what is so for this speck ...
So to put a label on 'what' is living life - doesn't feel quite right ... whatever it is is the same 'force/majic/mystery etc ... that beats the heart breathes relaxes and watches life moving along without concern ... .
Not sure I'm getting anywhere - and very not sure there is any 'where' to 'get' ... other than enjoying whatever is drifting endlessly along.
Rohit:
Imagine a child totally immersed in the belief of a tooth fairy. Everybody around her thinks tooth fairies are real. She doesn’t have a chance to discover the truth. Every “sane” child believes there is a real tooth fairy. As soon as she catches the tooth fairy — her mother — in action, the belief disappears. The story is revealed to be a story. The child can’t believe in it anymore, even if she wanted to. Now let’s investigate how much substance is there to self. You just have to catch the “self” in action, that is, observe the processes as they concoct the illusion of self in real time. Then you’ll know the truth.
There is no self. The “I” is made up — have you noticed? Have you looked inside and ever literally found this “I,” this self you have been referring to your whole life? Would you like to take the time to see? It can end the seeing story of this “I,” which will keep you on an endless search for a happiness that is already there — “I need,” “I want,” “I can’t,” “I am not enough” and so on and so on. It could liberate you from the painful story of “I” and all the thoughts that attach to it to protect it and keep it safe. Yet it does not exist.
BCL:
Perhaps a closer analogy might be the belief in - space - can't see it - I'm told that it is an illusion of the mind ... it - seems - to be there - eg it appears to exist - though I can find no real evidence of it ... oddly the belief persists.
So yes - I keep looking and not finding any evidence - except for conditioning - and there are times there is no sense and then if you ask - the mind says there are thoughts of doubt ... just thoughts ... that carry a weight (so to speak) of habit eg presumptions.
The simple fact of awareness - the sense - i am - awareness is aware of everything - and frankly when I sense awareness - it does not share your opinions of there being a problem with - anything - including a sense of self. It seems like you are proposing that awareness (for lack of a better word) has the quality of preferences and whats better. having spent time with no sense of i or story - with no experiencer seperate from experiencing... I know what it is to be free of all that - however - I remain unconvinced that - who and I - can choose to "look" and see what ... nothing is looking and noticing itself as nothing ...meanwhile life goes on with out all the spiritual necessity to state that this moment - should be any different than it is ... whether there is thought, beliefs, in i's or no i ... happiness, sadness suffering or no suffering. Life is.This moment is - well it's already gone as is every moment ... and ... you know what I mean.
it is obvious there is no - i - (fairy) - right along with no tooth fairy ... and as far as - space - is concerned - I doubt the mind will ever be able to wrap itself around that either - this stuff is either intuitively known/seen/ whatever - or not - in any given moment.
If your frustrated that I'm not getting it the way I am supposed to - or in some time frame - I understand - you have given a lot of time and effort - and I sincerely appreciate it - however - I am not going to pretend something that is or isn't so for me. it is up to you if you feel to continue or not. I am fine ... I appreciate the support ... and I'm not sure anything - should be any different than it is.
FYI - my supervisor is gone for two weeks = I'm it in the office - and we were slammed today = I didn't get a chance to take a break and respond till tonight.
BCL:
Oh - no response? Are you leaving - or pausing - or? I hope I didn't say anything to offend you - you have been very kind. I made an attempt to be honest - however e-mails can be challenging as it is hard to 'hear' inflectin etc.
Well ... let me know.
Thank you Rohit.
ROHIT:
I have some work to do. Will be
back in 6hrs.
BCL:
Oh - that's fine ... Well - very good then :)
So you're working too - while I sleep - well we'll keep the world covered in worker bees.
Alright tooth fairy ... I'll be looking under my pillow in the morning for whatever treasures you may have left.
Thank you again,
Rohit:
"Perhaps a closer analogy might be the belief in - space - can't see it - I'm told that it is an illusion of the mind ... it - seems - to be there - eg it appears to exist - though I can find no real evidence of it ... oddly the belief persists.the mind says there are thoughts of doubt ... just thoughts ... that carry a weight (so to speak) of habit eg presumptions.So yes - I keep looking and not finding any evidence - except for conditioning - and there are times there is no sense and then if you ask -"
This requires four seconds of looking, right now. There is no you. There's no you looking for "truth" or "no-self", there's just a body looking for no-self. That's all. You're not going to see something that does not exist. You can't see the absence of something. Stop looking for the fact that you do not exist. It is inherently impossible to see.
What you CAN see is that every time your mind mentions the word "I", or has a thought about "self" or "me", that's all it is. A thought. Seriously. A useless thought. So where are you?
Look at that. See the truth of that. Every time you encounter "you" is through thought. Is that true? Don't take my word for it. Look and confirm it. Seriously. Look. Where is "I" experienced?
Where are you, if every time "you" pops up is through thought? There is something behind your eyes doing the looking?
"The simple fact of awareness - the sense - i am - awareness is aware of everything - and frankly when I sense awareness - it does not share your opinions of there being a problem with - anything - including a sense of self. It seems like you are proposing that awareness (for lack of a better word) has the quality of preferences and whats better."
when you are sleeping, body is alive, mind working, awareness is there .ok. Awareness is always there, if you want it or not .but what is experiencing awareness?
Consider it. The notion of "experiencer" implies that is a divide between experience and experiencer. But experiencer is experienced! So where is the divide?
If there is no divide, what is the experiencer?
BCL:
Am slammed at work and need to get a few waves in after = I will respond much later tonight.
I am looking forward to sitting with your message and seeing what comes up.
BCL:
Hmmmm . a lot to sit with .... is there an experiencing awareness (?) .... or simply awareness?
How could a body be looking for no self - which is a concept? Isn't there just a thought or thoughts - about looking for the concept of no self ... for me - it seems that the body is just sensations in awareness - that thought has labeled - a body -. Is "a body" and different than 'an I' ? eg both are concepts/labels = how could a label look for anything. Besides the sensation of sight can operate free of so called bodily 'location' anyway. = I don't feel clear about a body looking for a concept called 'no self'. or 'self for that matter - which is only a concept.
You said something interesting a while back that I keep ruminating about - that thoughts don't think ... what is thinking ... that sailor bob talks about "cognizing awareness" ... is cognizing a quality of awareness? It still feels like there is this presumptions of a reference point with this story line trailer hovering like a shadow 'everywhere' the body goes. When 'I' look - there is nothing - including no looker - just looking and noticing nothing .. the spacious emptiness - even thought I can't find 'space either.
I AGREE - it is impossible to 'see' the nonxistence of something called a self eg a thought.
I don't even know what a thought is ... nothing is findable - it feels like nothing exists - just sensations and floating thoughts - which I can't really even say are floating ... thoughts just seem to be audible conceptual soundings.
I need to sit with what you have shared here - there is a richness to it.
Time for bed - got some surfing in and an unexpected visitor = I got to this later than planned - so much for plans ... the universe is just one big crack for all plans to eventually fall into.
Thank you Rohit.
ROHIT:
Investigate whether you exist in any way other than as a thought. One way to do this is to examine everything that you think you are in the following way: Am I a body? If so, can a body exist in any way other than as the thought of it? How would I know? Am I a mind? If so, can a mind exist in any way other than as the thought of it? How would I know? Am I a …..? etc. In this way, investigate everything that you imagine yourself to be. keep writing.
BCL:
I sat with this for a while today - will have more time tomorrow .. and there was one moment when I noticed a smell ... and then there was a distinct gap ... before thought showed up to interpret - what the smell was. That doesn;t sound like much - however - it was such a lucid moment of just sensing before - the happening/sensatin of a smell - felt velcroed to thought/abstraction. It was like a moment of simple non-separate and non conceptual experiencing.
Something exists in an alive way... that experiences ... prior to thought. Still - thoughts themselves are sensed - experienced. The locality aspect feels less certain today eg the locality of experiencing sensations ... the body is like a confined or localized grouping of sensations ... yet that is thought about experieincing sensations. The conceptualization of ' a body' is thought ... and not the identified sensations ... without thought there could be no "body" ... just experieincing of sensations. The thought os "I" is memory ... thought streams.
I don't know what mind is - other than a realm of thoughts ... thought streams or clusters. The visual sensations are the most challenging. Perhaps that is why a gap was experienced with smell - as it is likely my least interpreted of the senses and one i identiy with the least ... whereas sight feels like part of me ... the way a me is cognized ... in the me and objectified world.
Sometimes there is a sense of vastness - not confined to body sensations ... there is sometimes fear with this ... and the mind/thought seems to try to rationalize the feeling back into something manageable ... eg more known/identifieable. At the same time, the locus and space thing often seems to have no size or - place - or whereness ... so the word vast ... is as uncertain as space.
The story and social conditioning of patterned responses/reactions continues here and there ... even though it is mroe obvious nothing can be said of anything that is experienced - except with thought. There is an intuited (energetic?) way of experiencing where concepts don't fit very well ... of self, body or mind ... the concepts and thoughts continue ... even as some non linear sensing is also present - however unnameable - unexplainable.
Something is aware of the self/other thoughts and concpetual way of noticing - and there is more ... there is something that is aware of this ... just as it is of thoughts/sensations .. at the moment there is an odd sense of potency to it ... for lack of a better description ... descriptions feel burdensome at the moment - almost distracting from this potent awareness ... I am begining to resent words - though they are innocent (ha - more thought).
I will continue to be with this tomorrow.
Thank you Rohit.
ROHIT:
LOOK, Thoughts may arise- is there any thinker causing the thoughts to occur, anyone who is thinking the thoughts?
Sensations may arise- is there any sensor sensing these sensations, or just sensations arising?
Emotions may arise- is there a feeler feeling them, or just feelings arising?
Actions may be done- is there an actor doing these, or just actions being done?
BCL:
Hi Rohit:
Very sorry about the absence ... was out late and got up late ... and lots of stuff going on with my twin sister.
Anyway ... there has been much opportunity to notice this person/"character" whatever jumble of conditioning - getting triggered in fun ways and not fun ways .... and there were times of a lot of interpersonal stuff - dynamic conversations and suddenly in the midst of it all this amazing very visceral energetic space wide open and untouched by all the stuff that was going on.
What was most interesting about that - was it was so clear that no one was doing anything to - cause this sense of highly energetic opening in the heart area - right in the midst of folks having a high level debate political conversation. Then after a time - 'i' joined back in the conversation and the sensations and awareness of the opening sense dissipated. So whatever thoughts were occurring and speaking and listening ..... was all just happening .... and the awareness of the prior energetic spaciousness - just occurred as well. it caught my attention.
The troublesome stuff with my sister who is very ill ... was more challenging and seemed to hook conditioning in ways that attention was very mesmerized and upsetting emotions and thoughts were active. Even with awareness noticing it was occurring ... there was little - space ... thoughts etc were prominent .... and emotional discomfort was there. Then there were countering thoughts about wanting to - be peaceful again - it was not easy to remain aware of the awareness - as it were. Then finally late this afternoon ... there was a noticing of another seemingly spontaneous shift of relaxation and openness emotionally and thoughts etc. Nothing circumstantially had changed ... however everything felt different and softened ... which the "i" -mind/thoughts - preferred - eg thoughts - interpretations occurred.
There were thoughts about discouragement about ever 'seeing thru' the "i" ... all thoughts/emotions ... showing up for no one ... except the ongoing thoughts about being a someone. There are thoughts about - if i could just live under my favorite tree and "look" most of the day ... that would somehow be better ... but for who or what? it is a funny dilemma that mind/thought weaves. I keep looking and finding nothing ... mostly sensations ... however with interpersonal challenges... it seems the thoughts about 'my' life situation etc arise .... then the mind declares the un-find-able 'i' is getting no where. It is a thought ... however the complex of thoughts/emotions/ and involvements in the world seem to conspire to entangle rather than release ... right when things seemed to be relaxing around "i" mesmerization.
Certain thoughts are just seen - without emotions - while others seem very sticky and heavily involved in the "I" story ... all of which is obviously thought - emotion stuff - seeming 'real' for a time and then - not. Any suggestions? Thoughts and feelings may be ephemeral - however some register in awareness in a very impactful way = ? Conditioning seems to be thought clouds or streams that a great deal of attention and belief - has been given to - and such thoughts/emotions seem very persistent and repetitive = any suggestions as to how to loosen the seeming grip of conditioning .... other than continue to notice their falseness and that they are simply thoughts and feelings arising ... the 'my life story' things = feels griping and 'real' when conditioning is active.
OK
Thank you Rohit ... that's it for tonight.
ROHIT:
Have you ever experienced Awareness? What is the contradiction in that question?
What is it that is aware of Awareness? Is it a thought or feeling, or neither? Can it be present without thoughts or feelings? Can thoughts or feelings be present without it? Now look around you and see whether "external" objects can exist without your awareness of them. If they cannot, what does that imply about these objects? What does that imply about you?
Do the following exercise with your eyes closed while looking past your thoughts directly at the sensations themselves.
What is your immediate non conceptual experience of the following:
1. There are sounds, but is there something making the sounds?
2. There are sensations of touch and pressure, but is there something causing the sensations?
yeah, I know what you mean. There is a sense of self, a feeling, a thought, an idea... and when that is operating, it feels like being caught up in the movement.
And then, there is a movement to see the truth that there is not an ACTUAL self. And it's recognized again that it IS a thought, a feeling, an idea. That's all.
It's always true that there is no-self. No I. It may not always FEEL like it. But it IS always true. And real.
BCL:
Hi Rohit:
I wish I could separate out and quote you - oh well.
So the contradiction that came up for me was - well if I can't find the I/you .... what is the experiencer? When there has been full unity experiences - being all - no experiencer separate from the experiencing for a time .... then it is lucidly so. However, that is just a memory = it does not even exist - which is very odd - except as a thought/memory.
Thoughts and feelings are not what is aware ... awareness is certainly present with or without thoughts or feelings - however the reverse is not experienced as possible. I don't know if perceived objects can exist without awareness ... there is only awareness when the sensation/experience of perception of them occurrs. Some other 'person' in a room could report objects behind me are 'there' - however - if there is not the perception in awareness... here then the possibility remains conceptual. To speculate about what it means is uncertain ... other than there is no verification of the existence of "I" or objects - which are simply sensations appearing and dissappearing. Like floating in the ocean with ones eyes closed - there are many many sensations - pressures - that seem less differentiated as things - only because we so rarely enter that domain that languaging labels are less familiar .... and the constancy of the changes is obvious ... perhaps due to the environment being less familiar and so less analyzed .... much less memory labels are established in 'mind'. makes a good story anyway. :)
I heard last night about another finding that an atom actually "exists" everywhere - eg is not localized ... until there is an observer = reminiscent of similar findings I've heard of = to "know' these things with thought is postulation ... = the world and most beliefs are postulations or fantasies ... and only experienceable as sensations ... beyond that they are thoughts-labels-interpretations = memories ... of/about the sensations.
No when I do the exercise ... there are only memories learned abstractions about "causes" of sensations ... really they are only experienced. ... And most wierdly - an experiencer can't be found ... only presumed/assumed. Also - with eyes closed - the sense of an experiencer is muted and much less ... when eyes are opened there is such a habituated labeling and spatial eg distance sense - that there is a sense/presumption of something unknown - expereincing the percieved "objects" as seperate from the experiencing. When I sit and look more closely it is less obvious ... still a lingering presumption - however baseless.
I presume - however unwise it is to presume anything - that the more one looks that perhaps the less 'caught/,mesmerized - by the thoughts and feelings that arise as part of what we call conditioning - which is experienced as rapid fire clusters of thoughts/feelings - may subside ??? As the sense of presumed self is - perhaps gradually - and sometimes suddenly - seen/realized to not exist.
ROHIT:
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way,
shape or form? Was there ever? how about
self, is there anything that is separate from
everything else?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of
separate self is, when it starts and how it
works.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in
detail.
4) How would you describe it to somebody
who has never heard about this illusion but is
curious about it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over,
made you look? was there a specific moment
when seeing happened or was it gradual?
what exactly happened?
BCL:
1. No "me" found ... it is a thought/concept .... thoughts and concepts do continue to arise as does conditioning ... doubts .... about the "I" story - however whenever it is looked at nothing is found. ... 'Was there ever' ... I can't speak to that ... ever is - just now - nothing is found ... other than thoughts about time space. could arise - but haven't ... 'Separation' ... there are thoughts about perceptions ...presumptions ... that occur ... if the contents of thoughts were 'true' one might say separation is true ... there are presumptions - thoughts about appearances - however experientially it doesn't 'exist' - only mind could interpret and comment on that.
2. The separate self is a learned hypnotic thought stream ... that if unquestioned seems to operate in time space ... if attention gets mesmerized in thought story - the I thought/presumption appears 'real' - if attention looks - it can't be found - except as a thought ... if thoughts are believed - the I may seem real ... and so does 'other' then from that reference point ... if one is experiencing thoughts as simply one aspect of the - scenery - ... then "I" is taken much less seriously - eg it's as real as snow white ... we may love the story - however it is known to be just a story ... a fantasy ... one might enjoy fantasizing here or there - or not.
3. When attention/awareness is noticing this ... I could say there is a soft appreciation .. an energetic quiet ... which at times may seem more or less potent ... that doesn;t matter ... it's just another noticing that mind then describes .. the describing is completely inadequate = .... a resting quiet ... in endless appreciation .... is simply the underlying basis of all this wonder.
4. I'd just sent them to you all ...or to the many others who enjoy sharing such things. Words seem too inadequate ... I'm just enjoying some intuitively felt - energetic quiet ... that is enjoying the show - including the dance of thoughts feelings actions reactions .... the world is fine with or without 'my' input'. And at the moment I don't feel drawn to describe much of anything ... except when it happens like here.
5. Hmmmm ... seeing has always been - except according to the mind ... which could say the same thing again (eg seeing/not seeing blah blah) ... who could say .... there have been many dramatic "shifts" of "seeing" before ...subtler ones since being here ...and ... a "shift" ... a seeing - is just another description of a sensing - or a "knowing" in the awareness ... when is that ever not occurring ?
Ok Rohit - here are "my responses " ... Thank you so much for everything ... wheee .. . quite a ride - says the mind :) ... meanwhile ... tonight - there is the wonderful enjoyment of - quiet appreciation - for so much.
Aloha,
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