Searching for some answers and a guide.

[JonathanR]

Thanks for the warning Craig.

Yes, I'm well thank you.

. Also, try preventing a thought from appearing....

I think this might be impossible! Every time I tried this, a thought appeared.

IMPORTANT. Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, including the thought 'I'?

All best

Jon

[Orion]

Hi Jon :)

I am back from my hill walking week. I am sorry there was no phone connection at all!
However, the good news is I got a lot of time to reflect and observe the environment.
Thank you for your patience; I am really looking forward to continuing where we left off :)

IMPORTANT. Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, including the thought 'I'?

I am not involved in the thoughts at all. I am not creating them they just appear. There is no thinker that I can find. I cannot prevent thoughts from appearing whatever their content as I am not creating them. First something starts the process, this could be a sight, sound, etc. then the thought appears.

Best wishes,
Craig

[JonathanR]

Hi Craig.

Hill walking sounds lovely. It's great to be out in nature. Right now it's pouring with rain just outside the back of my house.

. I am not involved in the thoughts at all. I am not creating them they just appear. There is no thinker that I can find. I cannot prevent thoughts from appearing whatever their content as I am not creating them. First something starts the process, this could be a sight, sound, etc. then the thought appears.

Yes it does seem to be like this.

Conventionally there is the very widespread unquestioned assumption that 'I think my thoughts', as if there is a 'person' choosing to think thoughts and creating them.

What do you feel about seeing that thoughts cannot be created or prevented from appearing?

If thoughts are not created by a 'me' (yest still appear) where does that leave 'me', exactly?

Love

Jon

[Orion]

Hi Jon,

Rain seems to be the weather of choice at the moment! Hopefully there will be some sun for you soon, just for a change...

What do you feel about seeing that thoughts cannot be created or prevented from appearing?

At first, this was quite a surprising observation and one I was not really expecting. Initially it was also a little disconcerting as I questioned, if I am not my thoughts then who am I? However with passing time, I have become very comfortable with this experience and it has become normal. It has also resulted in a lessening of guilt I had about some past decisions and I also now have less reaction to thoughts that would have previously led to anxieties. I feel somewhat relieved to see the truth about thoughts.

If thoughts are not created by a 'me' (yet still appear) where does that leave 'me', exactly?

'Me' is definitely not the thoughts. 'Me' is also not the sensations (seeing, touch, etc.).

With so much time this week to watch my experiences (with no work etc. in the way), I have also observed my body seems to operate autonomously. At first, I noticed this with breathing as no 'I' is required to ensure breathing continues; it just happens. I have extended this observation to other body movements like reflex movements (blinking etc), but also to things like scratching an itch. The itch is felt and the hand moves to scratch it without any 'me' controlling it. I am therefore going to say from my experience there is no 'I' involved in body movements. I cannot find a 'me' in control of anything. However, the witness of these actions/thoughts does at times feel like 'me'.

All the best,
Craig :)

[JonathanR]

Hi Craig,

. At first, this was quite a surprising observation and one I was not really expecting. Initially it was also a little disconcerting as I questioned, if I am not my thoughts then who am I?

Yes. And actually 'what am I'?

. However with passing time, I have become very comfortable with this experience and it has become normal. It has also resulted in a lessening of guilt I had about some past decisions and I also now have less reaction to thoughts that would have previously led to anxieties. I feel somewhat relieved to see the truth about thoughts.

Wonderful!

. I am therefore going to say from my experience there is no 'I' involved in body movements. I cannot find a 'me' in control of anything. However, the witness of these actions/thoughts does at times feel like 'me'.

This is all good.

What if we just changed one phrase in what you've said from 'the witness' to 'witnessing'?

If it was 'witnessing' instead of 'the witness' would there be a 'me' as a separate entity?

Love

Jon

[Orion]

Hi Jon :)

I hope that the sun has found you...

If it was 'witnessing' instead of 'the witness' would there be a 'me' as a separate entity?

No there would be no separate 'me' :)

My experiences are that the witnessing is not confined to my body; there is witnessing outside it too.
I have looked but I cannot find a boundary/edge to the witnessing. I also cannot find the location of the witnessing, it is just there.

Just this second, something has fallen into place! If seeing and hearing are just there, why not the witnessing?
I cannot control or stop the witnessing, it just happens, just like seeing, etc.! How exciting!

All the best,
Craig x

[JonathanR]

Hi Craig

. Just this second, something has fallen into place! If seeing and hearing are just there, why not the witnessing?
I cannot control or stop the witnessing, it just happens, just like seeing, etc.! How exciting!

Yes! It is! :-)


And is there any 'separation' found between the witnessing and whatever is witnessed? (other than thoughts / ideas about separation?)

Love

Jon

[Orion]

Hi Jon :)

And is there any 'separation' found between the witnessing and whatever is witnessed? (other than thoughts / ideas about separation?)

I have had a chance to look for this today. I can report back that I can find no separation between the witnessed and the witnessing. There is seeing (or hearing, etc.) and there is witnessing (of these).

All the best,
Craig x

[JonathanR]

Hi Craig

. I have had a chance to look for this today. I can report back that I can find no separation between the witnessed and the witnessing. There is seeing (or hearing, etc.) and there is witnessing (of these).

Wonderful.

How does it feel to notice this.?

Jon

[Orion]

Hi Jon :)

How does it feel to notice this.?

Wow, it came as a bit of a surprise! One second I was so sure that the 'witnessing' was me, then the very next second it seemed so obvious that it could not possibly be the case. It now seems so silly that I considered there was a 'me' hiding somewhere. I definitely feel released from the burden of worry. Worries and anxieties have already started to fall away which has left me feeling much more alive to the future. After all, where is this 'I' that has needed such heavy protection all these years? I am still smiling :)

Craig x

[JonathanR]

Hi Craig

That's wonderful!

It will be very interesting to notice how things pan out over the next days and weeks.

Can you say with a big fat yes that the illusion of 'self' is seen?

If there, are, any doubts about this, or any aspect of your inquiry let me know and we can look at them.

Love

Jon

[Orion]

Hi Jon :)

I hope this mail finds you well :)
I wanted to take a bit of time thinking about your recent question and not rush my answer.

Can you say with a big fat yes that the illusion of 'self' is seen?

Yes I can! It was there hiding in plain sight all the time.

I now observe that knowing the illusion for what it seems to have changed the way the thoughts direct themselves. Where before there would suffering/pain from a thought/emotion (in reaction to something), it is now just not happening. There is no personal connection, no 'I' to protect.

There has also been as shift regarding other people. There is much more compassion towards them knowing that they are just a victim of their own illusion. This has been a rather lovely and surprising side effect x

If there, are, any doubts about this, or any aspect of your inquiry let me know and we can look at them.

No I have no more doubts or inquiries. Thank you so much Jon x

Have a lovely day,
Craig x

[JonathanR]

Hi Craig

I'm so pleased. It's so beautiful. It gives me a lot of joy to read your words.

Now, to be very thorough it's a good idea for me to present you with a set of questions. These are really just to help us to see if there are any stones left unturned. And if there, are we can of course address them. In all there are six questions. Please feel free to answer them two, or three at a time, if it suits you.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Thank you Craig,

Love

Jon

[Orion]

Hi Jon :)

I hope you are well.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There is no ‘self’ no ‘I’ in any form at all. It cannot be found anywhere in any shape or form. There has never been an entity of separate ‘self’ or an ‘I’ it is all just an illusion that has formed over time. Craig is just a story, an illusion, he has never existed and never will.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self seems to begin at an early age. It is initiated and re-enforced in childhood (and into adult life) by others through their language. Perhaps initially, it could be a reasoned for a child’s survival to direct them to protect the self (body) but the notion of a separate ‘self’ is just an illusion. Focusing on the individual (an ‘I’) with language re-enforces this illusion as the child develops. How do ‘you’ feel about that? What do ‘you’ want to do? Are ‘you’ hot? How are ‘you’ feeling?
The illusion is a belief that a person is in control of their senses, thoughts, emotions and awareness. That it is they who decide what they are going to listen to, what they are not going to see, what they are going to think about or what choice they will make. It is this idea of a controller that creates the illusion that these actions are controlled by a separate ‘I’.

Popular science also re-enforces this illusion by describing how ‘you’ decide to look with ‘your’ eyes, these signals are sent to ‘your’ brain where ‘you’ decide what ‘you’ look at and ‘you’ decide whether ‘you’ like what ‘you’ are looking at. In fact, there is just seeing of an object and a set of habits/tendencies/rules/program that decide any thoughts; there is no ‘I’ that controls this process, it just happens. The seeing or thoughts just are, they are not controlled by an ‘I’. Even the witnessing of the seeing and thoughts just happens; it is also not controlled by an ‘I’ (searching confirms there is no ‘I’ to find). This is also true of the body’s actions; there is no ‘I’ that controls breathing or these fingers as they type this response. Looking around the room at objects, the seeing sometimes creates labels (a vase), thoughts (memories, preferences, etc) or sometimes nothing. I have searched and there is no ‘I’ that controls any of these or one that witnesses them happening.

People can suffer in the illusion of a separate ‘I’ believing that with the right effort or care they can steer their intentions to making the right decision. However, there is no ‘I’ in control of the decision-making process, there are no intentions or free will either. All decision-making is the result of some inputs to a set of rules based on habits/tendencies/past experiences.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Seeing beyond the illusion has been extremely liberating. It is like someone has removed all the concerns about what will happen if this is done or maybe something different. Seeing there is no ‘I’ to protect from the outcome of decisions, or in fact, there is no free will to make a choice anyway has lifted away any anxieties about future actions or choices. It has also removed any guilt about past actions; there is understanding that these things were not decided by any ‘I’ they are the outcome of habits/tendencies/rules/a program; it could have been no other way. The suffering experienced with these outcomes has also lessened even for the unpleasant ones.

There has not been a continuous elation just happiness with an understanding that has brought contentment and peace. I did giggle for a few days at seeing the illusion for what it is and that the answer was so simple; I just needed to look in the right places.

This has also brought an unexpected feeling of compassion towards others which is lovely and has brought more tranquility. Understanding that they too are not controlling their actions has brought an understanding to them which has reduced the intensity of any negative emotions. There is a lot of happiness and contentment at the moment 😊

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

This has been a long journey. It started with my breath and the realization that there was no ‘I’ that controlled it; it just happens. This observation extended to include the other body movements, once again, these are not controlled by a separate ‘I’. Continued investigations to find an ‘I’, added seeing, touching, hearing, smelling, etc. to the list as these are also not controlled and there is no location to find them, they just are there. Next was thoughts. These just happen in reaction to a stimulus (like a sound); there is no ‘I’ creating the thought it just appears as the result of habits/tendencies/rules.
The last possible place for an ‘I’ to be hiding was in awareness; the one witnessing everything that happens. This was a tough one as it previously felt like there was an ‘I’ that was witnessing everything. The illusion started to show itself when there was a realization that the witnessing is not confined by this body; it extends beyond with no edge to it. It also cannot be controlled, switched on or off and is not at the whim of any separate ‘I’. However, the final thing that pushed me over was the realization that the witnessing is no different to seeing, hearing, etc. it just is there; no difference. This put witnessing in the same place as seeing/hearing/etc. and it just felt right. There was no ‘I’ watching no ‘I’ in control; there is just witnessing.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

There is no ‘I’ controlling decision making, intention, free will, choice or control; these are all part of the illusion. A stimulus like the opportunity for me to go to the shops , however the decision to go or not go is not decided by any separate ‘I’. The decision is the result of habits/tendencies/past life experiences, a program of rules that work like a machine. They take in the inputs and output the result with no control by a separate ‘Craig’.
In the past, there has been a lot of suffering debating over making/controlling decisions. Trying to decide the option that will be the best one or harm the least people’s feelings. Knowing freewill is an illusion is so liberating. Knowing there is no-one is in control means it will just happen. This has provided a release from the false condition of making a choice, removing all responsibility of the decision and its associated consequences. My own recent experience has changed so much. I can now relax into these situations and be curious about what outcome will be selected. I feel no anxiety over the decision process as there is no ‘I’ involved. I also felt the removal of guilt over past choices that I thought I had made. I now see there was no ‘I’ making the choice and no ‘I’ that is responsible for the outcomes good or bad.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Nothing. Seeing, hearing, smelling, touching, tasting (all the senses) are not mine to control or be responsible. Thoughts/emotions that may arise are the result of a set of rules for which I am not responsible. Decision making and free will are an illusion that means there is no ‘I’ responsible for these either. I have recently experienced thoughts of frustration or displeasure in response to ‘my’ expectations. Knowing these are just thoughts/labels that are only the output of a set of rules that have processed a set of inputs has brought an inquisitive investigation to the situation. With the knowing that there is no ‘I’ that is responsible has provided space to sit in the situation and watch it unfold.

6) Anything to add?

Just my thanks to LU and especially to Jon for his patience and probing questions. This process has been life changing and there is a thought that this is just the beginning…

With love,
Craig x

[JonathanR]

Hi Craig,


Your answers are wonderful! Thank you.

I'd like to invite other guides to take a look at our conversation to see if they would have more questions. This might take a day or two. They may or may not.

If this conversation mysteriously disappears from the Gate don't be concerned. If that happens look for it in the Archive section of the furum, where we can continue to talk.

Love

Jon