Help me to find out

[Aleks72]

Hi Kay,

Great…so does a thought cause a sensation? Does a sensation cause a thought? Or it is only thought that suggests one causes another?

It is the thoughts which connect the different sensations and thoughts in the causal effect perspective.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close the eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

Looking for the gap is a way to slow the thoughts, as the objective of this exercise is to observe each and every thought as it arises and subsides.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts.
Looking how they come and go.
And observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

It is very difficult/impossible for me to stay with closed eyes for more than 30 seconds. The only way I discovered to stay longer is when experiencing the AE of the sensations of the body. But then there are no thoughts.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Let me know how you go.

This is a very, very difficult exercise. I have never imagined that it is such a flow of thoughts floating around. Actually, I am living in my thoughts. The body can not make a difference what is imaginary and what is real - real I mean the constructed image from the input of the senses. Actually, what is the AE of thought? The reaction of the body?
In the first days, it was impossible to notice/look at the thoughts. From yesterday I succeeded sometimes to see/feel the gap. I need much more time to practice.

Can a thinker of thought be found between the gaps?

No, I can not find a thinker.

Aleks

[forgetmenot]

Hey Aleks,

You don't need to put my questions in blue text. I use blue text so you know what I want you to LOOK at, and answer from that looking. But you can just use black text and use the quote function like you have been.

Okay...many find it difficult to just observe their thoughts. So, I will give you the following exercise to help you with this. It' still longer than 30 seconds...but you can try with 5 minutes at first and then extend it to 10 minutes.

Sit for 5-10 minutes, once in the morning and once at night for several days. Take in a couple of deep breaths to let the dust settle. Close your eyes and just observe 'your inner world’ by letting whatever thoughts appear come to your awareness; each to be noticed for a moment, and then replaced by the next. Try not to establish any kind of hierarchy among them, as no thought is more important than another. Watch them come and go as dispassionately as possible. Don't focus on any one thought in particular, but try to let the stream move on evenly and calmly, without any special investment on your part. If you find that you have followed a thought and are no longer just observing them, gently bring your attention back to ‘your inner world’ and start again.

Let me know how you go.

Love, Kay

[Aleks72]

Hi Kay

Okay...many find it difficult to just observe their thoughts. So, I will give you the following exercise to help you with this. It' still longer than 30 seconds...but you can try with 5 minutes at first and then extend it to 10 minutes.

After I realized that it is big problem that I can't stay with closed eyes, I visited three different psychotherapists. They did different alternative treatments/procedures. To sum up there have been some issues/traumas in my childhood and in the family history. Now it is fixed. I can stay still with closed eyes for long periods.
In the last days I did the exercise many times. I can see how the thoughts arise and flow away. Usually after four or five thoughts I get caught and need to go back.
In the day I observe how the thoughts are arising around several topics- me, the work, the family, the house..
Thank you, Kay. Without you I wouldn't pay attention to my problem. Now everything is so peaceful.


Aleks

[forgetmenot]

Hello Aleks,

Being able to observe thoughts is an important component of realising that there is no separate self because by observing thoughts you get to see that they are simply stories about a 'me', but when LOOKING happens, no 'me' is found.

First, since there has been such large time periods between posts....I would like you to go back to the beginning of your thread and reread your thread thoroughly and redo the exercises, so that what we have done so far is fresh and clear.

Once you have reread your thread carefully...we will continue looking at the nature of thought...look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Kay

[Aleks72]

Hi Kay,

Where are they coming from and going to?

I can not find a place where the thoughts are coming from or going.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, it is not me to determine which thought to come.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, I explain this in details below.

Can you predict your next thought?

No, I can not do this.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

This is impossible.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, I can not.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I tried a lot. Last evening I tried almost an hour to do it, with closed eyes and in complete peace. It was very clearly impossible. I was amazed. Something in me can not accept this. Today all day I am trying to make a specific thought to appear, but I can not do it.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

This is not possible.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

You are right. In last days several times, I saw very clearly how different groups of thoughts, completely randomly appearing, somehow are grouped by something to form bigger thoughts - work and family for example.
I feel there is something common in all the thoughts, but I can not describe it. Not only to you, but I also can not understand it for myself.

Aleks

[forgetmenot]

Hello Aleks,

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I tried a lot. Last evening I tried almost an hour to do it, with closed eyes and in complete peace. It was very clearly impossible. I was amazed. Something in me can not accept this. Today all day I am trying to make a specific thought to appear, but I can not do it.

What is the AE of “Something in me can not accept this”?

Point to where exactly this “something” is? If you are pointing to the body, where exactly in the body is this ‘something’?

How can you try and make a specific thought appear? You would have know what thought it is you want to appear…and you can only know a thought by its appearance, so you would have already had the thought in that moment…so I don’t quite get how you would be trying to doing this?


If you want to try it out….you can do so with the following exercises.

Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.

Try the same experiment in other ways. Think of cities in Europe or football teams or whatever. Why did you choose those particular ones and not the other available options? How exactly did you go about making these choices? If you are the one making the choices, why don’t you know why you have made that particular choice or how you are making choices at all?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

You are right. In last days several times, I saw very clearly how different groups of thoughts, completely randomly appearing, somehow are grouped by something to form bigger thoughts - work and family for example.
I feel there is something common in all the thoughts, but I can not describe it. Not only to you, but I also can not understand it for myself.

It is simply another thought that infers that thoughts are sequential and ordered. If thoughts were expressed via the tweeting of birds or an unknown language, how would you know what they meant? What meaning is given to thoughts, are only thoughts about thoughts.

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

This exercise is to help you see that narrator of the game is no different to the narrator labelled as ‘my thoughts’, and that the game played is no different to life unfolding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in and notice what the actual experience is.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (aka thought) offers lots of know-how and advice about what the players should or shouldn’t be doing and how they should be playing the game - as if thought can somehow influence what is going on - as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary seems to heighten feelings, and calls for loyalty with one team or another, and expounds the importance of this choice, and further expounds the importance of the game and its outcome.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary. Just watch the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Just notice what is happening as actual experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know the commentator is talking about, (and ignore all of your own thoughts as well), and just notice the actual experience of sound.

Let me know how you felt when the sound was turned on. Did you get caught up in the moment with the excitement of the crowd, and/or the excitement of the commentator and his commentary of the game?
How did you feel when the sound was off and there was no commentary at all.

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

And in the same way: is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

Kay

[Aleks72]

Hi Kay,

It is simply another thought that infers that thoughts are sequential and ordered.

After I read this sentence I said to me "Ah ok, now I understood what to do with the thoughts. Just look at them and say "this is simply another thought".

And after that a thought came, I looked at it, said to me "this is simply another thought", and it disappeared.

Another thought came, I looked at it, said to me "this is simply another thought", and it disappeared.

And after that, I looked at myself, at Aleks. Automatically I said, "this is simply another thought". And I saw its dissolution.

Now it is emptiness.

Aleks

[forgetmenot]

Hello Aleks,

It is simply another thought that infers that thoughts are sequential and ordered.

After I read this sentence I said to me "Ah ok, now I understood what to do with the thoughts. Just look at them and say "this is simply another thought".

And after that a thought came, I looked at it, said to me "this is simply another thought", and it disappeared.

Another thought came, I looked at it, said to me "this is simply another thought", and it disappeared.

And after that, I looked at myself, at Aleks. Automatically I said, "this is simply another thought". And I saw its dissolution.

Now it is emptiness.

YES! Brilliant! Nice work seeing through thoughts! Everything you think you think is a thought! Thought A has no idea about thought B, and thought B as no knowledge of thought Z and so on; and thought Z has no knowledge of thought B or A, or any thoughts in between! Thought is not needed to tell you what IS...it is already known. Actual experience (AE) is everything, except the "content" of thought, because thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience. Emptiness is an idea as the KNOWING never shows up "empty", but the inherent 'emptiness' of appearances can be realised. The knowing always only shows up with what is known.

THIS (You but not Aleks) are like a open window. There is nothing in the open window. The open window is just an "emptiness", an openness, but it is the open window that allows the view to take place. It is your openness. You are not something that you can say “I am this”, or “I am that”. You can say that the thought is this, the feeling is this ie a some ‘thing’ – an object, just as sound is an object. But you are the openness that allows all of this to appear just like the open window is the space that allows the view to appear. That openness cannot be overwhelmed or changed in any way by what it appears as.

How does it feel to see/realise this "emptiness"?

Love, Kay

[Aleks72]

Hi Kay,

The first and most dramatic difference is the SILENCE. An overwhelming silence. It came immediately after the dissolution of the self image. It is so intense that I can hear all the time some "ssssss" sound in the background.

The second is the emptiness. Here I do not mean the emptiness of the thoughts, but the feeling of absence of something which has been around all the time. Now I am getting used to it, and it is changing to the openness you describe.

Since yesterday morning some kind of black energy burst happened, it was like a safety valve release, I had extremely strong feelings of rage and jealous combined with very strong headache. I was every sick. Now, this morning everything vanished.

This is what I can say so far.

And my greatest gratitude to you Kay. To you and everyone involved in this incredible project.

Love

Aleks

[forgetmenot]

Hello Aleks,

Thank you for the gift of being a part of your shift into seeing that there is no separate self...it is really such a delight!

Although the shift has happened...I would like for us to continue this exploration, so that we cover all bases where a seeming separate self can hide. What I mean by that, is that the next phase will be the yo-yoing phase, where in one moment there is absolute clarity that there is no separate self...and yet in the next moment, this clarity seems to be muddied and there is doubt and confusion. I would like to continue this exploration...so that you can see...there is no place where a separate self hide. Is this okay with you?

Love, Kay

[Aleks72]

Yes, no problem

[forgetmenot]

Hey Aleks,

Yes, no problem

Great! So let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Kay

[Aleks72]

Hi Kay,

I tried many times not only that exercise, but I searched in other different situations.

How is the movement controlled?

The movement is not controlled.

Does a thought control it?

No, there is no thought that controls it.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No controller can be located.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

There is no any point where a decision is made.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Absolutely not.

Love

Aleks

[forgetmenot]

Hey Aleks,

Nice LOOKING with the palm exercise. The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice, more so than control can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Kay

[Aleks72]

Hi Kay,

I used water and coffee.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities appeared by themselves. The preference arose by itself.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

No, it was not me to switch the two events. It happened in a natural way.

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

I could not detect the process of choosing. Nor I saw such an action.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

I did not find in AE any function or faculty doing the "choosing". There is no chooser too.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

In the beginning of the exercise there was very strong feeling that "I make choices". After that I stopped, and started to look/contemplate that feeling. Slowly a knowing emerged that in my childhood, for a long time I have been forced to make a choice to take the side of my mather or my father. An impossible choice for a child. And that has built a strong feeling of choice.
After I realized that, in the area of the heart it was a movement as if two fluid snakes emerged from the depth, for a couple of seconds moved around each other and merged in one with a soundless click. And the feeling of choosing disappeared. Gone.

Love

Aleks