Please point me to the truth

[MariaNi]

Hi Michael,

Thank you very much for your help and guidance with this!
I do like this exercise with the thoughts indeed!

Where do thoughts come from?

I don't know. It seems to me that they are floating in the air, like the sounds or the sights and then they are perceived somehow and they are perceived so fast that it's seamless. They give the impression as if I'm managing or producing them, but I'm not. I don't think I can produce a thought.

Where are they going?

They just exist I think. They don't have a destination. If they have, I don't know what that is.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

No way.

Can you choose what to think?

Not really.

Can you choose what not to think?

Nope.

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No.

Are thoughts belonging to a self or just occurring?

They don't belong to anyone, they are just occurring. I was at a meeting today, a person was doing a presentation and then she was asking us for questions. And of course, certain thoughts occurred and one thought was about vision impairments and psychiatric disorders. It was quite a random thought at the time, and I didn't do anything with it, I just noticed its randomness. And then, after the talk, a colleague of mine approached me and started talking to me about how he has found a link between vision and psychiatric disorders! How funny is that? This was not my thought, it was just a thought floating around and somehow got perceived by whoever/whatever 'I' am. I can't explain it otherwise. I can't generate a thought, it exists already and just comes and goes.
I now think it's all about where attention is directed to. For example, now that I'm writing to you, I kind of know what I want to communicate and relevant thoughts are coming while I'm typing. So, I think there is a degree of relevancy when it comes to thoughts. Like if you can't remember where you put something and then you try to remember so it's like looking out for relevant thoughts. You might think of irrelevant stuff too but perhaps the right thought might actually be perceived and you'll find what you've been looking for.

Thanks again Michael,
Maria

[MichaelD]

Hi Maria,

Where do thoughts come from?

I don't know. It seems to me that they are floating in the air, like the sounds or the sights and then they are perceived somehow and they are perceived so fast that it's seamless. They give the impression as if I'm managing or producing them, but I'm not.

Bingo!

Where are they going?

They just exist I think. They don't have a destination. If they have, I don't know what that is.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

No way.

Bingo!

Can you choose what to think?

Not really.

You look at this later.

Can you choose what not to think?

Nope.

Bingo!

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No.

Bingo!

Are thoughts belonging to a self or just occurring?

They don't belong to anyone, they are just occurring. I was at a meeting today, a person was doing a presentation and then she was asking us for questions. And of course, certain thoughts occurred and one thought was about vision impairments and psychiatric disorders. It was quite a random thought at the time, and I didn't do anything with it, I just noticed its randomness. And then, after the talk, a colleague of mine approached me and started talking to me about how he has found a link between vision and psychiatric disorders! How funny is that? This was not my thought, it was just a thought floating around and somehow got perceived by whoever/whatever 'I' am. I can't explain it otherwise. I can't generate a thought, it exists already and just comes and goes.
I now think it's all about where attention is directed to. For example, now that I'm writing to you, I kind of know what I want to communicate and relevant thoughts are coming while I'm typing. So, I think there is a degree of relevancy when it comes to thoughts. Like if you can't remember where you put something and then you try to remember so it's like looking out for relevant thoughts. You might think of irrelevant stuff too but perhaps the right thought might actually be perceived and you'll find what you've been looking for.

Yes, they do seem to be related to attention but can be very random too. Mysterious.

Very well done so here come the more "I" based thought questions:


Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?


Do relax and take your time

You will enjoy these I’m sure!

Michael

[MariaNi]

Hi Michael,

Thank you for the exercise!

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

No.

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

No, I can't find him/her.

Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

It could be, but I find it difficult to say so in my direct experience. It seems to be more than a thought, it is so ingrained in everyday life, I can feel it in the body. I say 'I' and it's sitting in my stomach. Not like an entity, but like a thought together with a feeling.

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

No. Thoughts cannot be controlled.

Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?

No but I wish it was.

Thank you!
Maria

[MichaelD]

Hi Maria,

Gret.

Well done.

So what do these excercises tell you?

Is there a separate self that is not just thought creating an "I" story?

It seems to be more than a thought, it is so ingrained in everyday life, I can feel it in the body.

Really?

Is there anything in the body other than sensation - warm, cold, tingly, tight etc etc?

:-)

Michael

[MariaNi]

Hi Michael,

So what do these exercises tell you? Is there a separate self that is not just thought creating an "I" story?

They do tell me indeed that there is no separate self but that thoughts create the "I", since I can't find "I" anywhere else apart from the domain of thought. The other thing that these exercises tell me, is that I rarely live in the present moment. Especially these past 3-4 days, thoughts are coming all the time and they feel stronger than before. What I mean is that today, for example, I set my timer for 10 minutes to stay in the present but it was very difficult not to identify with the thoughts and just notice them. Most of the time I identified with them and followed whatever path they were showing to me.
I guess this is another example from direct experience showing me that thoughts are un-controllable.

"It seems to be more than a thought, it is so ingrained in everyday life, I can feel it in the body."
Really? Is there anything in the body other than sensation - warm, cold, tingly, tight etc etc?

No, the sensation kind of accompanies the thought of 'I'. Today, for example, I can feel it in my throat somewhere. It feels tight. I don't remember how it felt two days ago.

Thank you Michael!
Maria

[MichaelD]

Hi Maria,

So what do these exercises tell you? Is there a separate self that is not just thought creating an "I" story?

They do tell me indeed that there is no separate self but that thoughts create the "I", since I can't find "I" anywhere else apart from the domain of thought.

Great!

The other thing that these exercises tell me, is that I rarely live in the present moment.

'Er is there anywhere else you can be? (That's if we assume for now that there is such a thing as the present moment).

thoughts are coming all the time and they feel stronger than before. What I mean is that today, for example, I set my timer for 10 minutes to stay in the present but it was very difficult not to identify with the thoughts and just notice them. Most of the time I identified with them and followed whatever path they were showing to me.
I guess this is another example from direct experience showing me that thoughts are un-controllable.

Well spotted! They are uncontrollable.

If you have started sitting in direct experience / meditation / zazen regularly you may find that you may need to sit for longer. Sometimes it may take longer for thoughts to quieten down and lose their insistance.

Please tell me more about the 'link' or association between thought and sensation.

Are they linked?

Can you have sensation without thought?

Can you have thought without sensation?

Can thought know sensation?

Can sensation know thought?

Is a sensation 'the self'?

Is thought 'the self'?


:-)

Michael

[MariaNi]

Hi Michael,

Er is there anywhere else you can be? (That's if we assume for now that there is such a thing as the present moment).

These are some mind-blowing questions. I don't know what to answer!

If you have started sitting in direct experience / meditation / zazen regularly you may find that you may need to sit for longer. Sometimes it may take longer for thoughts to quieten down and lose their insistance.

Good point, thank you. I followed your advice and increased the time in the evenings and helped a lot.

Please tell me more about the 'link' or association between thought and sensation. Are they linked?

Sometimes they are. Sometimes the thought might bring a sensation or the other way around, but not always.

Can you have sensation without thought?

Yes, definitely.

Can you have thought without sensation?

Yes.

Can thought know sensation?

No. It can only make a comment on a sensation.

Can sensation know thought?

No.

Is a sensation 'the self'?

No.

Is thought 'the self'?

Yes. My thought thinks so..

Thank you Michael!
Maria

[MichaelD]

Hi Maria,

So can you find any separate self outside of thoughts about a self?

:-)

Michael

[MariaNi]

Hi Michael,

So can you find any separate self outside of thoughts about a self?

Good question. I can't find a self. But if there's no separate self, then what is there?
There are thoughts coming and going, there are sights, sounds, tastes. there is a body.
And there's also something else, that seems to be the essence of whatever it is I am.
I don't know.

Thanks again!
Maria

[MichaelD]

hi Maria,

I can't find a self. But if there's no separate self, then what is there?

Well done!

So can anything elsa be founf except sensation and thought?

Don't answer 'body' - it can't be found - what we notice 'in the body' is what we are calling 'sensation' in this inquiry.

And there's also something else, that seems to be the essence of whatever it is I am.

Really? What's that?

Enjoy!

Michael

[MariaNi]

Hi Michael,

So can anything else be found except sensation and thought?
Don't answer 'body' - it can't be found - what we notice 'in the body' is what we are calling 'sensation' in this inquiry.

I don't know. I need more time to work on this. I'll get back to you.

"And there's also something else, that seems to be the essence of whatever it is I am." Really? What's that?

I don't know Michael. I find it hard to accept that all that I am is a collection of thoughts and sensations.
I'll get back to you on this too.

Thank you!
Maria

[MichaelD]

Hi Maria,

I don't know Michael. I find it hard to accept that all that I am is a collection of thoughts and sensations.

Remember we are not dealing with belief here (except to see through the belief thast we have a separate self). There is no need to believe anything I say it is just a question of looking squarely and honestly at experience.

So as you read this is there anything other than sensation, thought, energy / aliveness, a sense of being aware?

:-)

Michael

[MariaNi]

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your posts. I'm slowly giving up on this.

So as you read this is there anything other than sensation, thought, energy / aliveness, a sense of being aware?

There is sensation. There is thought. But there is also an understanding of the thought. What I mean is, that thoughts appear, yet there some kind of selection over which thoughts to keep thinking and which thoughts not to think further. Same with sight, I can look in front of me, but if I don't like what I see, I can then direct my attention to the left or the right.
When you say a sense of aliveness/energy, I do feel this too, in the sense that I feel my breath. Yes, there is a sense of awareness which is perhaps what is driving the attention. If there was no awareness then I wouldn't be able to understand what you are saying and write back to you.

Thank you!
Maria

[MichaelD]

Hi Maria,

I'm slowly giving up on this.

Why? An expectation that it was going to be easy? A fear that you won't be able to 'get it'.

Why not find out and deal with it.

Code: Select all

There is sensation. There is thought. But there is also an understanding of the thought.

Yes. Pre or post seing no self there is knowingness.

What I mean is, that thoughts appear, yet there some kind of selection over which thoughts to keep thinking and which thoughts not to think further. Same with sight, I can look in front of me, but if I don't like what I see, I can then direct my attention to the left or the right.

There is a deep tendancy to more towards what is pleasurable in our environment and what is unpleasant. This is deeper than self view and is related to survival (it is a good idea to move towards food, or a mate, and away from a sabre toothed tiger!

BUT, Is there a chooser? Is there a director? We believe that we are the conscious chooser and doer, the little manager of this (separate) part of the universe.

But is that true?

It is great that your inquiry has led you to this as it is central / key.

Why not go and sit in the garden or your local park and watch nature. Watch a squirrel, or birds. They are moving towards and away, pairing, nest building, feeding, respondingjust like humans) but are separate selves required for all this?

Have a look.

Yes, there is a sense of awareness which is perhaps what is driving the attention. If there was no awareness then I wouldn't be able to understand what you are saying and write back to you.

Yes. We know what is appearing and we call that a sense of knowing, consciousness, or awareness etc. Best to stick with one label here and follow through ruthlessly. If you prefer awarenes (as I do too) lets stick with that.

Something occurs e.g. the cry of a bird, or the fridge clicks on. Attention goes to it. There is awareness of birdsong.

Same question as ever: Is a separate self present, in that moment, other than the thought story that is doing all the labelling?

Is it true to say "A bird was heard" or "I just heard a bird"

Enjoy the process (rather than give up). After all you want to find truth and freedom so there may well be difficult and confusing moments. So what!!

:-)

Michael

[MariaNi]

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your posts.

Why? An expectation that it was going to be easy? A fear that you won't be able to 'get it'.
Why not find out and deal with it.

Thank you for pointing this out. The answer is both, and they obviously contradict each other since these fears/expectations make no sense.

Yes. Pre or post seeing no self there is knowingness.

Ok.

BUT, Is there a chooser? Is there a director? We believe that we are the conscious chooser and doer, the little manager of this (separate) part of the universe. But is that true?

My roommate has a dog and I observed him for a while. He's been reacting indeed by moving towards pleasure and by avoiding unpleasant stimuli. Although I can't tell what his internal world is like, it seems to me that there's no conscious director or manager of his moves. When I focus my attention towards me, almost everything I do happens automatically. If there's an itch, I'll scratch my head, breathing just happens, thoughts just happen. There's no chooser and no director, which makes me think that the world we live in is so bizarre. Our whole political and economical system is based on this belief.

We know what is appearing and we call that a sense of knowing, consciousness, or awareness etc.

Is this the same as people call 'presence'?

Same question as ever: Is a separate self present, in that moment, other than the thought story that is doing all the labelling?

No, there's no separate self.

Is it true to say "A bird was heard" or "I just heard a bird"

'A bird was heard'. Unless the thought can hear a bird, which I don't think is possible. Or to put it more clearly, it's not thought is possible.

Enjoy the process (rather than give up). After all you want to find truth and freedom so there may well be difficult and confusing moments. So what!!

Thank you Michael. You are right. Things are a bit clearer to me today, thanks to spending a couple of hours meditating and looking at your questions, but during the week, identification with thoughts is stronger and thus confusion is kind of expected.

Thanks again!
Maria