Passing through, carrying on

[Vivien]

Hi Sami,

You’re right about the consequences. There is a thought that ”seeing” this should have a consequence in the form of a bodily effect that clearly separates intellectual understanding (no real bodily effect) from experiential understanding (expected to have strong effect).

There has never ever been a chooser. So just by seeing that there has none, what bodily effect should appear?
Does a bodily effect is needed in order to see that there is no chooser?

Even science had discovered that decision and free will are just illusions. Here is a few minutes long youtube video about this. Usually, I don’t like showing this because at the second half of the video the explanation of the self is really off. Scientists discovered that this is just an illusion, but then they try to interpret it through the belief in the self :)

https://vimeo.com/90101368

”I” think this thought is also what makes answering the other questions hard. Is there a way of differentiating ”clear seeing” from mere surface-level intellectual understanding? In the past, ”insights” have been accompanied by some clear changes in sensations - perhaps these experiences are giving rise to expectations.

Yes, this might be a false expectation.

Does seeing that there is no self would require a change in sensation?
Does a change in sensation is needed in order to see that there has never been a self?

There is thought (expectation) that the belief should disappear if one wants to say that ”non-existence of chooser” is clearly seen.

So there is an expectation that the illusion of the chooser will stop appearing? When it appears it will never be taken as real?

I guess there is still some identification with the thought that I exist, even though where this identification exactly happens is not that clear at least for me.

Do you expect that the illusion of the self will never appear again? Or it never will be taken as real?

For many, there is an expectation that the sense of self (or the sense of a chooser) will be gone completely, never asserting itself ever again. But this is not the case. Due to a lifetime of conditioning, self-constructs still arise out of habit. It needs time and lots of further looking for it to gradually dissolve (over many years).

DE: After sensations, sometimes there appear thoughts that contain a label of the sensations. There is thought that this is how sensations are known by thoughts.

In order to thoughts be able to know sensations, thoughts have to be aware. But is this so?
Is the thought label ‘sensation’ aware?

Or is the thought label itself is ‘being awared’?

An image regarding a source of sound arises quite more confidently than a thought labeling some body sensations. So sometimes, yes.

In order to say that the image know about the sound, the image has to be aware. But is this so?
Is the image ‘about the location of the sound’ aware?

Or is the image itself is ‘being awared’?

I notice some difficulty with these does X know Y type of questions, because I’m not sure what is e.g. meant by sensation knowing a thought. There are sensations and there are thoughts. Both appear quite independently. But thought content seems to often contain names for sensations, while sensations are just sensations.

But just because the content of a thought contains the name/word sensation, does this make the thought aware?

V: What would need to happen to say without any doubt that the illusion of the self has seen through?

S: Thought: life should seem as it is happening in autopilot...Everything should feel like ”a flow”...

Thought: there should be no more thoughts about I am/I do...
These are HUGE and UNREALISTIC expectation!

Flow is a state. Seeing through the self is NOT a state. It’s an experiential knowing/understanding that behind the words ‘I’ or self, there is nothing. They don’t point to anything.

But just because the self seen through, it doesn’t mean it will stop appearing. It WON’T!

And the thought of “I am” and “I do” definitely won’t stop appearing at all. Expecting this just would lead to big disappointment. We are not after a special state where there are no more thoughts about me, and everything seems to flow autopilot. This might happen to some for a period of time, but this state will definitely end, and this is not the aim of this investigation. These states are valued a lot by some, but actually they don’t matter to much. Since states come and go. But seeing through the self don’t come and go. However, he illusion still can be taken as a reality (probably more often than one would expect), and the self could seem to be very real. But when it looked at closely, it’s clear that there is nothing there.

Yes, but falling for the illusion can happen much more often than one might expect. It can last for even hours several times during the day. And why? It’s because every time an emotion is triggered (by some circumstances or because of certain thoughts coming up), the self is activated. So whenever there is frustration, wanting or not wanting something, expecting something, having anger, resentment, feeling hurt, disliking something / somebody, etc. the self is there immediately. Since all these emotions are on behalf of the self. And after seeing no-self, all these conditioned issues need to be worked through, otherwise whenever these emotions arise the self comes with them. Humans are very often triggered (many-many times a day) and those triggering reactions can last from minutes to hours or even day or longer, meaning that the self is there and believed to be real for minutes, hours or days while those triggered reactions are functioning.

Taking the self as real, is also a conditioned habit of thinking. It’s a habit of the ‘mind’. It’s the result of a life-long conditioning. But upon each looking it gets a little bit weaker and weaker.

V: What is missing? Is there anything missing to seeing through the self?

S: Thought: a clear, single moment of knowing this to be true... A way to know/”measure” understanding.

Haven’t this moments of clear seeing happened several times already?

Do you just want this clear seeing be on for 24/7 to the rest of your life?

At the moment, there is a thought that there is often a lot of identification with thoughts and their contents, which makes direct looking hard and distorts it. As if there are expectations of how things should be and then perceptions are tried to be fitted to them.

Yes, exactly. And since these expectations are very high, when what is happening is compared with these expectations, there is a thought conclusion (which is believed by the way), that this is NOT IT.

Is there resistance to reading my comments about expectations?

Or can you accept that the ‘first stage’ of awakening is might not what you expect?

Vivien

[Thirteen]

Hi Vivien,

There has never ever been a chooser. So just by seeing that there has none, what bodily effect should appear?
Does a bodily effect is needed in order to see that there is no chooser?

Does seeing that there is no self would require a change in sensation?
Does a change in sensation is needed in order to see that there has never been a self?

These expectations of bodily effects might have resulted from previous practice, where ”insight” seemed to be often associated with a release of contraction and thus feelings of release. It is an expectation, so a thought.

So there is an expectation that the illusion of the chooser will stop appearing? When it appears it will never be taken as real?

The expectation was the first one... When there is belief in chooser, it is now recognized as a thought. Thanks for the clarification about the conditioning. :)

In order to thoughts be able to know sensations, thoughts have to be aware. But is this so?
Is the thought label ‘sensation’ aware?

Or is the thought label itself is ‘being awared’?

In order to say that the image know about the sound, the image has to be aware. But is this so?
Is the image ‘about the location of the sound’ aware?

Or is the image itself is ‘being awared’?

True, they themselves are not aware, but there is awareness of them.

But just because the content of a thought contains the name/word sensation, does this make the thought aware?

Again, no, the thoughts are not aware.

Haven’t this moments of clear seeing happened several times already?
Do you just want this clear seeing be on for 24/7 to the rest of your life?

Yes, there was the expectation that this should be 24/7.

Is there resistance to reading my comments about expectations?
Or can you accept that the ‘first stage’ of awakening is might not what you expect?

Actually, there was a lot of relief. Especially what you said here: ”However, he illusion still can be taken as a reality (probably more often than one would expect), and the self could seem to be very real. But when it looked at closely, it’s clear that there is nothing there.” This is how it is now. It is also quite clear that the expectations about the first stage were very ”flashy” and unrealistic.

[Vivien]

Hi Sami,

These expectations of bodily effects might have resulted from previous practice, where ”insight” seemed to be often associated with a release of contraction and thus feelings of release. It is an expectation, so a thought.

Insights might or might not followed with the release of contraction. It can happen, but it’s not necessary.

True, they themselves are not aware, but there is awareness of them.

But is it TOTALLY clear that there is neither sensation without the knowing or aware-ing of them, nor knowing / aware-ing without the sensation? So these are not 2 phenomena, but rather one?

Actually, there was a lot of relief. Especially what you said here: ”However, he illusion still can be taken as a reality (probably more often than one would expect), and the self could seem to be very real. But when it looked at closely, it’s clear that there is nothing there.” This is how it is now. It is also quite clear that the expectations about the first stage were very ”flashy” and unrealistic.

All right.

Please look very carefully one-by-one with the following questions. Spend a few minutes with each. Literally scan through the whole body from head to toe, with particular attention on the head. Look behind the eyes, into the forehead, the top of the head, the throat, look everywhere. Also scan through all aspects of experience.

Is there a thinker?
Is there a seer?
Is there a feeler?
Is there a hearer?
Is there a taster?
Is there a smeller?

Is there an experiencER?

Is there anything having the experience of whatever is happening?
Is there anything which the experience is happening TO?

Is there a you?
Has there ever been a you?

Is there any doubt whether the self has seen through?

Do you feel the need to do more exercises?

Is there anything that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?

Vivien

[Thirteen]

Hi Vivien,

Sorry that I couldn’t reply yesterday, it was quite a hectic day.

But is it TOTALLY clear that there is neither sensation without the knowing or aware-ing of them, nor knowing / aware-ing without the sensation? So these are not 2 phenomena, but rather one?

Yes. Awareness without the sensations cannot be found, and neither sensations without awareness.

Is there a thinker?
Is there a seer?
Is there a feeler?
Is there a hearer?
Is there a taster?
Is there a smeller?

Is there an experiencER?

No. These are all thoughts.

Is there anything having the experience of whatever is happening?
Is there anything which the experience is happening TO?

No. There is only experience, but nothing that could have it or be its subject or object.

Is there a you?
Has there ever been a you?

There is no I except as a content of a thought. There has never been.

Is there any doubt whether the self has seen through?

No. Sometimes a doubt arises, but looking confirms that there is no self.

Do you feel the need to do more exercises?

Not at the moment. Your clarifications very much eroded the grip of the expectations.

Is there anything that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?

Not at the moment.

Vivien, there is much appreciation and gratitude for your patience, thoroughness and encouragement. Thank you.

[Vivien]

Hi Sami,

there is much appreciation and gratitude for your patience, thoroughness and encouragement. Thank you.

You’re very welcome :)

Can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Vivien

[Thirteen]

Hi Vivien,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No. There are only thoughts, colors, sounds and sensations and aware-ing of them. Nothing separate from these. It has always been like this.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is mistaking a thought content to reality - that the content (”I”) ”really” exists. For ”me”, it is especially evident when there is planning, choosing/decision making, anger, shame, and social interactions. In these situations, there is a belief that ”I am influencing” situations and that experiences are happening to ”me”. However, when there is closer looking, it is seen that wants, actions, decisions, sensations, thoughts, sounds, colors come from nowhere and cannot be controlled. There can only be thoughts that they can be influenced by ”self”.

(To clarify: wants, decisions etc. are also thoughts about sensations)

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is more clarity in aware-ing of sensations, thoughts. Less identification and contracting sensations. Looking is happening more often and in more situations. It is also clearly seen in direct experience that the I is a thought.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Cannot think of a single event. However, the identification with thoughts become much weaker after a recent period when there were feelings of frustration. There was more looking at the sensations and thoughts related to ”frustration” instead of identifying with thoughts that ”I am experiencing frustration”. Also, after the discussion on expectations, there has been a more clear seeing of expectations as sensations and thoughts.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Decisions, intentions, free will, choices, and control are thoughts, like ”I”. They don’t ”really” exist. Source of actions, thoughts, sensations, colors, sounds cannot be seen.

Today ”I” went to a shop with a thought to buy muffins. In shop, there was thought that muffins are unhealthy and that ”I” have been making more healthy choices recently and it would be shame to stop. Then there appeared thought to buy sandwhich, which then happened. There was the belief that ”I” had made the choice. However, how these thoughts appeared cannot be seen in direct experience.

Right now, there is aware-ing of thoughts, sensations, sounds, colors. But ”how the choice to write these words” happens cannot be seen. There is only aware-ing of thoughts, sensations, sounds, colors. There is thought that ”the brain converts the colors to letters to words to ideas, that cause a response idea based on past history and current state, that is converted to words that is converted to action of typing”. But this is only a thought about how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

In DE, there is no ”I” that can be responsible for anything. There are thoughts, sensations, sounds, colors and aware-ing of these that happen on their own. ”My responsibilities” is a thought. Today I worked. ”I am responsible for going to work to survive and make a living” is a thought.

6) Anything to add?

It is getting late, so not at the moment. :)

[Vivien]

Hi Sami,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to get other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a day or so. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

If there are no further questions, I will let you know and you will then be invited to the LU FB groups.

Vivien

[Vivien]

Hi Sami,

Other guides have no more questions for you, so our conversation will be moved to Archive section of the forum.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you. Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions etc, via the forums PM system, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Vivien

[Thirteen]

Okay. Once again, thank you very much Vivien for your guidance. :)

[Vivien]

You're very welcome :) It was a pleasure to guide you.