Beanstalk and Forgetmenot

[thursday123]

Kay,

Okay, so there is no hand or table. Only experience which thought is labelling as sensation and colour. So can there be an experiencer of experience? Is there a ‘me’ that is experiencing some ‘thing’?

When I looked at this the attention immediately went to the area around the 'head', as if there is a me located somewhere there that is experiencing the experience, and thoughts arose about how the me located there was the thing that 'processed' the experience. but nothing could be found other than blackness, sensation and thought, in other words more experience, no experiencer

There is nothing feeling anything else, but only AE of sensation

Yes…so what is it that SEEMS to feel sensations?

There are thought-stories overlaying AE of sensations about a me that is feeling the sensations, that is what makes it seem as though there's a me feeling them. but thought is just more AE, it cannot feel sensations

there is no dividing line between feeling and sensation, there is only sensation and thought-stories about an I/body/hand that is feeling - there is no feeling or feeler to be found in AE

Yes, so when you see this when looking, how does it make your feel?

it feels pretty good as there are accompanying thought-stories about progress being made, but the sensations that accompany the thoughts aren't really strong, so there is not much of a 'feeling' per se. there are also other thought-stories based around doubt, even when I think I'm seeing it, like 'am I looking correctly?', 'is progress being made?', 'how would I know if it is?' etc etc. So overall there are many more accompanying thoughts than there is any kind of 'feeling' present

I don’t know what you mean when you say “soundthoughtsmelltastecoloursensation is just a label and doesn’t get close to the experience itself”. So can you explain this for me please.

I'm just saying that soundthoughtsmelltastecoloursensation in and of itself is also just AE of thought, even though it is one of the labels we say is 'closest' to representing all that this. It is absolutely impossible for a label to ever get close to the lived experience of everything that is

How is soundthoughtsmelltastecoloursensation and different to the label experience/THIS/awareness/knowing/God? They are all pointing to what IS appearing exactly as it is.

it is no different. they are all labels pointing to everything as it is. I'm just saying that ANY label must be at least once removed from what it points to. a pretty basic point I know, not sure why I mentioned it

If you look at a table, and for the sake of this experiment, let’s say it is the colour brown. Now totally ignore the label ‘table’ and you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Totally ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’. Now ignore the label ‘colour’ and what are you left with?

nothing and at the same time everything. the only thing that remains is all that was there to begin with, for which there isn't actually a word because as soon as you call it anything you are moving away from what it actually is. there is only experience exactly as it is

Yes, exactly. There would have to be a someone or a something that is actually moving attention. Can anything be found that is doing this? Can a doer or any sort/description be found anywhere?

To look at this I shifted attention very deliberately from the sensation of one hand on a surface to the other, as its the shifting of attention that appears careful and deliberate I seem to have been having an issue with. I could not find a do-er anywhere, only thoughts about or 'relating to' a doer. These thoughts are difficult to describe - it's as though thought presents a picture of the attention moving and acts as a sense of a separate 'me' - but when I looked at these thoughts and asked 'is THAT the separate self?' it was totally obvious to me they were just thoughts, and a very brief sensation that was a bit like panic came over me, sort of like a split-second 'oh jesus' before it disappeared as quickly as it came. Other than the sensation of 'hand on surface' and these thoughts about a 'me', there is nothing else present

If a doer cannot be found and a thinker cannot be found, there how does free will, choice, decisions and responsibility fit into the picture?

none of that fits into the picture. there's no way for any of those things to exist. all there is, is experience, and experience cannot 'have' free will, choice, decisions or responsibility. it cannot have or possess anything. free will, choice, decisions and responsibility are all just ideas and nothing more

Beautiful. So the idea of a separate self appears…as you have described in this post. Just because it SEEMS like attention is moving and attention now SEEMS to be placed on something called Beanstalk…does it a Beanstalk make?

no, there is no 'me' that owns the attention. There is the belief that attention is somehow attached to, or a part of, a 'me', but who it's attached to or placed on cannot be found because it's not there. In reality nothing is attached to anything because that's just another concept

And when you LOOK and see that Beanstalk does not really exist...how does that you feel...what happens?

there is a mild feeling of calmness. other than that nothing changes. the doubts continue even when I see I don't exist, but they are fine and I leave them be because they are just thoughts. other times there is a moment of what feels like panic as mentioned above, though these moments are rare

Now, whilst doing that…see if you can find an ACTUAL LINK that links the appearing thoughts and the sensation labelled as ‘forehead’, ‘thinking’ and ‘attention’.

I can't find a link, only thought-stories about the sensation, for example that is occurs around the head, and that it's the product of thinking and attention happening, however these are just more thoughts, they have nothing to do with the sensation and in turn the sensation knows nothing of what the thoughts talk about.

So what is ‘appearing’ is always here ie soundsensationsmelltastecolourthought…right?

yes that's right

What does the herenow point to?

The herenow points to actual experience - soundsensationsmelltastecolourthought

What I want you to do is to reflect back to before that chaos appeared to how you are now. I want you to note any differences. If life more peaceful, even if only for pockets of moments. Have some thoughts changed and some fallen away. How are emotions these days? Have a close look and let me know what you find. What do you find is different, what percepetion changes have happened?

I would say life is more peaceful than it was then. My belief is that this is due at least in part to improved social skills. I used to overthink and dread social interactions constantly which made life in general very difficult and nowadays I don’t nearly so much and they are generally much smoother experiences. I have OCD and whilst it is still a predominant feature in my life it is not nearly as bad as it used to be, so my thinking patterns must have altered somewhat in that sense, though there has been a gradual improvement in this starting before I read the Jed Mckenna books. Emotions are still very up and down, but I don’t invest in the negative emotions as much as I used to. I accept that life is difficult and the bad is an unavoidable part of it, and that there’s no reason why I should feel happy all the time, or negative emotions are anything to run away from (this has happened more recently). I am more aware of the falseness of the stories I tell myself about how hard life is for me and any ‘poor me’ stories, and any (often subtle) urges to create drama, because sometimes it seems that deep down I’d rather things went awry than smoothly, even though I tell myself I’m desperate for everything to go smoothly. And I’m believing more and more that even though there is no ‘me’, at the same time if we are to pretend there is then ‘I’ am responsible for everything that happens to me. I’m not sure how much I’ve actually changed from the outside because it's very difficult to know, but I would say I am more mature in my outlook on life. But these are all just today's stories and if you asked me the same question tomorrow I might say something different


Beanstalk

[forgetmenot]

Hello Beanstalk,

Okay, so there is no hand or table. Only experience which thought is labelling as sensation and colour. So can there be an experiencer of experience? Is there a ‘me’ that is experiencing some ‘thing’?

When I looked at this the attention immediately went to the area around the 'head', as if there is a me located somewhere there that is experiencing the experience, and thoughts arose about how the me located there was the thing that 'processed' the experience.

Yes, so in that moment the show/dream was appearing about a story about the above. How is that any different to what is written in a book about a character? You were aware of exactly what was appearing in that moment. Seeing that experience and awareness are one and the same, isn't that another way of saying that experience is aware of itself? And if experience is self-aware, and it's obvious that it's *you* that is aware, could you be anything else other than self-aware experience?

but nothing could be found other than blackness, sensation and thought, in other words more experience, no experiencer

Is there such a thing as “more experience”? For there to be “more experience” points to extra experience…more than what normally is. Experience itself (THIS/knowing) is not derived from people and things…they are derived from experience itself.

there is no dividing line between feeling and sensation, there is only sensation and thought-stories about an I/body/hand that is feeling - there is no feeling or feeler to be found in AE

Yes, so when you see this when looking, how does it make your feel?

it feels pretty good as there are accompanying thought-stories about progress being made, but the sensations that accompany the thoughts aren't really strong, so there is not much of a 'feeling' per se.

In this case, what I mean by feeling is like someone asking you how you feel about life. Is there more of a lightness to life and within yourself? Is the head more quiet than it used to be. These are the things I want you to look at and see what has changed. Do you feel generally happier within yourself and so on. Have you noticed that some thoughts no longer appear.

there are also other thought-stories based around doubt, even when I think I'm seeing it, like 'am I looking correctly?', 'is progress being made?', 'how would I know if it is?' etc etc. So overall there are many more accompanying thoughts than there is any kind of 'feeling' present

How can you be anything but present? Where else is there? There is only the present moment and whatever is appearing and whatever is unfolding. Is there some sort of expectation that you will be in the ‘present’ moment when you have had the realisation? What does that even mean?

I want you to break down ‘doubt’ into AE for me, so you can look at ‘doubt’ yourself and other ideas that appear.

If you look at a table, and for the sake of this experiment, let’s say it is the colour brown. Now totally ignore the label ‘table’ and you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Totally ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’. Now ignore the label ‘colour’ and what are you left with?

nothing and at the same time everything. the only thing that remains is all that was there to begin with, for which there isn't actually a word because as soon as you call it anything you are moving away from what it actually is. there is only experience exactly as it is

Yes, lovely. So perhaps start doing this more often…looking to see what IS..as opposed to listening to thought.

Yes, exactly. There would have to be a someone or a something that is actually moving attention. Can anything be found that is doing this? Can a doer or any sort/description be found anywhere?

To look at this I shifted attention very deliberately from the sensation of one hand on a surface to the other, as its the shifting of attention that appears careful and deliberate I seem to have been having an issue with. I could not find a do-er anywhere, only thoughts about or 'relating to' a doer. These thoughts are difficult to describe - it's as though thought presents a picture of the attention moving and acts as a sense of a separate 'me' - but when I looked at these thoughts and asked 'is THAT the separate self?' it was totally obvious to me they were just thoughts, and a very brief sensation that was a bit like panic came over me, sort of like a split-second 'oh jesus' before it disappeared as quickly as it came. Other than the sensation of 'hand on surface' and these thoughts about a 'me', there is nothing else present

Okay…so I want you to tell me the fears you have about what you think will happen when you see through the separate self? That split second of panic was a good thing to see, because it is fear that is stopping you from just saying to yourself….’there is no Beanstalkself, there is no separate ‘me/I’ in any shape or form”. Actually I would like you to say that out loud to yourself and see what happens in the body…see if fear or panic or whatever appears. Let me know please.

If a doer cannot be found and a thinker cannot be found, there how does free will, choice, decisions and responsibility fit into the picture?

none of that fits into the picture. there's no way for any of those things to exist. all there is, is experience, and experience cannot 'have' free will, choice, decisions or responsibility. it cannot have or possess anything. free will, choice, decisions and responsibility are all just ideas and nothing more

That, to me is a bit of a leap. Experience is appearing as the idea of control, choice, decisions and freewill….so I couldn’t make that leap and say experience itself has none. All I know is that the seeming separate self certainly doesn’t have any of those things….and that I can’t even find a separate self to have those things.

And when you LOOK and see that Beanstalk does not really exist...how does that you feel...what happens?

there is a mild feeling of calmness. other than that nothing changes. the doubts continue even when I see I don't exist, but they are fine and I leave them be because they are just thoughts. other times there is a moment of what feels like panic as mentioned above, though these moments are rare

So when this ‘panic’ arises…what do you do?

Now, whilst doing that…see if you can find an ACTUAL LINK that links the appearing thoughts and the sensation labelled as ‘forehead’, ‘thinking’ and ‘attention’.

I can't find a link, only thought-stories about the sensation, for example that is occurs around the head, and that it's the product of thinking and attention happening, however these are just more thoughts, they have nothing to do with the sensation and in turn the sensation knows nothing of what the thoughts talk about.

Great. So each time this idea appears…what needs to happen is that you need to LOOK to see if you can find a thinker or attention mover! Seeing the absence of anyone/anything that is thinking or moving attention is the key.

What I want you to do is to reflect back to before that chaos appeared to how you are now. I want you to note any differences. If life more peaceful, even if only for pockets of moments. Have some thoughts changed and some fallen away. How are emotions these days? Have a close look and let me know what you find. What do you find is different, what percepetion changes have happened?

I am more aware of the falseness of the stories I tell myself about how hard life is for me and any ‘poor me’ stories, and any (often subtle) urges to create drama, because sometimes it seems that deep down I’d rather things went awry than smoothly, even though I tell myself I’m desperate for everything to go smoothly. And I’m believing more and more that even though there is no ‘me’, at the same time if we are to pretend there is then ‘I’ am responsible for everything that happens to me. I’m not sure how much I’ve actually changed from the outside because it's very difficult to know, but I would say I am more mature in my outlook on life. But these are all just today's stories and if you asked me the same question tomorrow I might say something different

I think perhaps, it is time you and I had a skype chat. Can you send me a PM on Facebook and we will set up a time to get together.

Kay

[thursday123]

Kay,

I want you to break down ‘doubt’ into AE for me, so you can look at ‘doubt’ yourself and other ideas that appear.

In the context of looking for a separate self, 'doubt' is just AE of thought and sometimes, though not always, sensation

Okay…so I want you to tell me the fears you have about what you think will happen when you see through the separate self? That split second of panic was a good thing to see, because it is fear that is stopping you from just saying to yourself….’there is no Beanstalkself, there is no separate ‘me/I’ in any shape or form”.

I fear that turbulence will occur in my life due to changes in 'my' personality or direction. This may arise as conflict with friends or family. I am (probably falsely) expecting to be much less attached to other people when it is seen through, or later on in the process when other beliefs have been seen through, and it is thought that this change is what may cause conflict.
I'm also fearful there will be positive changes in me that will open up new possibilities and opportunities, which I will no longer have excuses not to pursue. I'm scared of not resisting anything that comes my way, and of the potential situations/circumstances that way of living may bring. And also that it will be worse somehow than my life right now, and I will wish to undo it but won't be able to.

Actually I would like you to say that out loud to yourself and see what happens in the body…see if fear or panic or whatever appears. Let me know please.

I felt calm and serene for about 5 seconds as the thought arose 'there's no me in control of any of this', then it faded and some anxiety returned

So when this ‘panic’ arises…what do you do?

Usually I try to go back and look at exactly what I was looking at when it happened, in the exact same way, but when I do the panic never occurs again


Beanstalk

[forgetmenot]

Hello Beanstalk,

I would like you to spend some time (several days) with the exercises given in this post.

I want you to break down ‘doubt’ into AE for me, so you can look at ‘doubt’ yourself and other ideas that appear.

In the context of looking for a separate self, 'doubt' is just AE of thought and sometimes, though not always, sensation

The label ‘doubt’ is AE of thought and not AE of doubt
Sensation labelled as ‘doubt’ is AE of sensation and not AE of doubt
Image labelled as ‘me/body’ is AE of colour and not AE of doubt
Thought ABOUT doubt and what it is, who it is happening to etc are AE of thought and not AE of doubt.

So what is actually known is label + sensation + colour + thought. However, is doubt actually known?

So then look….
Does the label ‘doubt’ know anything about doubt?
Does the label in any way suggest that it is doubt or in doubt?
Does the sensation labelled ‘doubt’ know anything about doubt?
Does the sensation in any way suggest that it is doubt or in doubt?
Do the colours labelled ‘me/body’ know anything about doubt?
Does the colours in any way suggest that they are doubt or in doubt?

“I” = thought, sensation + ‘feeling’ which intimates a body which intimates a ‘me’ having an experience of thought, sensations and feelings. So when a thought arises, I claim it by saying ‘my thought’ which then I say ‘created that feeling and those sensations’, which are all localised in ‘me as me’ – so experience, by habituation/conditioning is then limited to a ‘me’ in a body.

Thoughts cannot create, they are just thoughts, so the idea that thoughts create an “I” isn’t quite right. Thoughts are believed in and that is what creates an “I”. I am this or I am that. I am confused, I am happy, I am sad, I am alone, I have, I want, I wish. Only the past is seen! Doubt arises and because doubt has been experienced before then ownership is taken of doubt and doubt becomes an “I” and therefore “I now doubt and am doubt ”. Mind adds extra memories to doubt, of what was felt when doubt happened before (not being able to do something, pass an exam, talk to someone, be something, get drivers licence!), and a whole story of suffering arises with the story that there is a ‘me who doubts’. That doesn’t mean doubt doesn’t or won’t happen, but it’s not happening to ‘me’, it is just arising as an experience in that moment, and if it is seen for what it is and let pass on by, there is no “I” experiencing doubt. Doubt as a thought is just appearing.

Okay…so I want you to tell me the fears you have about what you think will happen when you see through the separate self? That split second of panic was a good thing to see, because it is fear that is stopping you from just saying to yourself….’there is no Beanstalkself, there is no separate ‘me/I’ in any shape or form”.

I fear that turbulence will occur in my life due to changes in 'my' personality or direction. This may arise as conflict with friends or family. I am (probably falsely) expecting to be much less attached to other people when it is seen through, or later on in the process when other beliefs have been seen through, and it is thought that this change is what may cause conflict.

There has never been a separate self ever….and yet it seems that turbulence in life has appeared. Can you find anyone/anything that can control whether or not turbulence happens? And if you look really carefully…can you actually say that there is a ‘you’ who has experienced turbulence in the past? When are those thoughts and sensations appearing exactly?

You need to start to put into practice what we have been looking at in this exploration. Giving me answers saying there is no past…then believing thoughts about a past, doesn’t make sense. You need to question these thoughts and LOOK to see if there is any experiential evidence of a past.

I'm also fearful there will be positive changes in me that will open up new possibilities and opportunities, which I will no longer have excuses not to pursue. I'm scared of not resisting anything that comes my way, and of the potential situations/circumstances that way of living may bring. And also that it will be worse somehow than my life right now, and I will wish to undo it but won't be able to.

Where is this ‘you’ that has choices on whether or not new possibilities and opportunities will be pursued? Did you look to see if you could this “I”? That isn’t fear about losing an “I”…that is fear of living!

Actually I would like you to say that out loud to yourself and see what happens in the body…see if fear or panic or whatever appears. Let me know please.

I felt calm and serene for about 5 seconds as the thought arose 'there's no me in control of any of this', then it faded and some anxiety returned

Okay…so did you look to see what it is exactly that is feeling anxious? As I have said, unless you look constantly and diligently everyday…day in and day out…then not being a separate self will remain a concept. So you ‘decide’ what you want. You either want liberation or you want to remain in a conceptual based idea of safety and limitations and there was no point in you coming to LU!!

So when this ‘panic’ arises…what do you do?

Usually I try to go back and look at exactly what I was looking at when it happened, in the exact same way, but when I do the panic never occurs again

That is not looking.

Here is a comprehensive way of looking at emotions..be it fear, doubt, sadness, anxiety etc.

Let's look at 'fear'. When ‘fear’ appears, become aware of everything that is happening…ie bodily sensations, thoughts etc and then close the eyes and to the following:-

1) Look at the label/thought ‘fear’ itself. See the label/word F E A R or the thought “I am “scared/fearful” as a typewritten word in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead.

Does the label ‘fear’ know anything about fear, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
Is the label ‘fear’ itself fearful?
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is fearful?

2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘fear’.

Look and see if the sensation itself is the fearful self. If the words ‘yes’ , or ‘yes, this is the self’ appears, go back to Step 1 and see the words across the forehead and repeat step 1.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fear or that it is fearful?
Does the sensation itself know anything about fear?
Can you find anyone/anything in the sensation itself or behind the sensation that is fearful?


If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is fearful, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is fearful as you did in step 1.

3) Look at the mental image/outline labelled body.

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘fear’.
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the colour that knows anything about ‘fear’ or that can be ‘fearful’.

If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is fearful, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is fearful, as you did in step 1.

4) With eyes still closed look everywhere and see if you can find anyone or anything that is fearful.

When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation - and remember to breathe normally – in and out through the nose. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘fear’ or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.

Let me know how you go.

The label ‘fear’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of fear
The sensation labelled ‘fear’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of fear
The colour labelled ‘me/I/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of fear
The thoughts ABOUT fear are AE of thought and not AE of fear

So, is there actual experience of ‘fear’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT fear? Is 'fear' actually known?

Kay

[thursday123]

Kay,


I had some detailed answers to the questions before the last exercise but my laptop crashed and I lost them. Sorry about this. Shall I do them again so I can post the responses? It would perhaps be better than trying to rewrite them from memory. Below are my responses to the last exercise about fear. I'm responding now instead of just doing the exercises again as it's been quite a few days so I feel I should respond.

Does the label ‘fear’ know anything about fear, or is the word just a bunch of letters?

The label knows nothing about fear. Mind also went to the thoughts that are labelled 'fearful', such as 'I'm not sure how I'll manage the next few weeks', and again I couldn't find anything in these thoughts that knew anything about fear. The mind then said 'but thoughts know something about possible outcomes', so I looked at whether this was true and found that again it wasn't. Thoughts do not, and can not, know anything about anything, and they know nothing about each other. Thoughts about 'possible consequences' are just that, they do not actually know anything, because no thought can know anything.

Is the label ‘fear’ itself fearful?

No, it's just a thought, and the thoughts that thought labels as 'fearful' are also not fearful. It is impossible for a thought to be fearful itself.

Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is fearful?

No. Initially thought appeared as the ludicrous suggestion that there's someone looking at thought, the same way there's the assumption that there's someone looking a colour/image through the eyes. But obviously there's no-one doing that, there is just the thought itself. There is no fearful 'me' tied up somewhere in thought

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fear or that it is fearful?

No, it's only thought that labels the sensation as fear, or creates a story about the sensation being a 'me' that is 'fearful'.

Does the sensation itself know anything about fear?

No, there is no way a sensation could know anything about fear, or anything at all for that matter

Can you find anyone/anything in the sensation itself or behind the sensation that is fearful?

No, there is only the sensation itself

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘fear’.

No, it's the same as in step one. The image/outline is just a thought itself and cannot know anything about fear.

And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the colour that knows anything about ‘fear’ or that can be ‘fearful’.

There is no-one/no thing there whatsoever. This is where thought becomes especially crazy, with image after image appearing in mind as soon as the previous one is seen as just a thought, as though desperately throwing them into existence hoping one will stick. But they can only ever be thoughts, no matter how many appear as an image labelled 'me'

With eyes still closed look everywhere and see if you can find anyone or anything that is fearful.

When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation - and remember to breathe normally – in and out through the nose. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘fear’ or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.

Let me know how you go.

No-one could be found that was fearful. Sitting with the sensation was actually quite pleasant, or least more so than trying to run away from it. It's not something that needs to be run away from. It is only thought that labels the sensation 'fear' and creates stories about it being something big and scary that needs to be avoided. Immediately after I finished sitting with it, the sensation was still there but I felt slightly calmer, and the mind was definitely clearer. Then soon afterwards some very strong emotions came over me and I felt quite upset for a while, though still clear in the mind

So, is there actual experience of ‘fear’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT fear? Is 'fear' actually known?

'Fear' is not known. There is only label + sensation + colour + thoughts about fear. It doesn't seem nearly so big or scary when looked a for what it is. Sometimes when doing the other exercises I looked at fear and other emotions and it was difficult to even find a sensation present. Instead there were just thoughts talking about a feeling being present.


Beanstalk

[forgetmenot]

Hello Beanstalk,

No-one could be found that was fearful. Sitting with the sensation was actually quite pleasant, or least more so than trying to run away from it. It's not something that needs to be run away from. It is only thought that labels the sensation 'fear' and creates stories about it being something big and scary that needs to be avoided. Immediately after I finished sitting with it, the sensation was still there but I felt slightly calmer, and the mind was definitely clearer. Then soon afterwards some very strong emotions came over me and I felt quite upset for a while, though still clear in the mind

NICE! Yes, if you put aside the labels and thoughts about what is appearing…then clarity about it all remains. The more you do this, the easier it gets until eventually a sensation with its story can appear and there is no attachment to it.

So, is there actual experience of ‘fear’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT fear? Is 'fear' actually known?

'Fear' is not known. There is only label + sensation + colour + thoughts about fear. It doesn't seem nearly so big or scary when looked a for what it is. Sometimes when doing the other exercises I looked at fear and other emotions and it was difficult to even find a sensation present. Instead there were just thoughts talking about a feeling being present.

YES EXACTLY! Unless there is an actual sensation…then thoughts are just talking BS. And even if there is a sensation..when you actually investigate it, you can see that it is simply a sensation and nothing more.


If you could answer these questions from my previous post…that would be great.

Okay…so I want you to tell me the fears you have about what you think will happen when you see through the separate self? That split second of panic was a good thing to see, because it is fear that is stopping you from just saying to yourself….’there is no Beanstalkself, there is no separate ‘me/I’ in any shape or form”.

I fear that turbulence will occur in my life due to changes in 'my' personality or direction. This may arise as conflict with friends or family. I am (probably falsely) expecting to be much less attached to other people when it is seen through, or later on in the process when other beliefs have been seen through, and it is thought that this change is what may cause conflict.

There has never been a separate self ever….and yet it seems that turbulence in life has appeared. Can you find anyone/anything that can control whether or not turbulence happens? And if you look really carefully…can you actually say that there is a ‘you’ who has experienced turbulence in the past? When are those thoughts and sensations appearing exactly?

You need to start to put into practice what we have been looking at in this exploration. Giving me answers saying there is no past…then believing thoughts about a past, doesn’t make sense. You need to question these thoughts and LOOK to see if there is any experiential evidence of a past.

Have you been doing this?

I'm also fearful there will be positive changes in me that will open up new possibilities and opportunities, which I will no longer have excuses not to pursue. I'm scared of not resisting anything that comes my way, and of the potential situations/circumstances that way of living may bring. And also that it will be worse somehow than my life right now, and I will wish to undo it but won't be able to.

Where is this ‘you’ that has choices on whether or not new possibilities and opportunities will be pursued? Did you look to see if you could this “I”? That isn’t fear about losing an “I”…that is fear of living!

Kay

[thursday123]

Kay,

Can you find anyone/anything that can control whether or not turbulence happens?

Thought immediately said there is a me within thought that can control turbulence through thought itself. But in order for this to be true there would have to be a thinker, which couldn't be found. Despite having looked for a thinker countless times now, there are still times when I feel I realise on a deeper level that a thinker does not exist. It feels like the absolutely simplicity of this thing is unmasked and it is seen that thought is just happening on its own, not because of some really lofty-sounding 'spiritual' truth, but because there is literally no-one there to do the thinking. The idea also occurred that thought is too dynamic, there's too many 'layers' within it for it to be just happening without a thinker. But there's no layers to it, just thoughts about layers, and thought does not have it own separate controller, it is just happening.

Thought also says there is a me somewhere in the middle of movement itself, but when I look there is just colour, sensation and thoughts about a me doing the moving

And if you look really carefully…can you actually say that there is a ‘you’ who has experienced turbulence in the past?

No, the past doesn't exist, there are just thoughts about a past appearing in the now

When are those thoughts and sensations appearing exactly?

They are appearing in the now

You need to start to put into practice what we have been looking at in this exploration. Giving me answers saying there is no past…then believing thoughts about a past, doesn’t make sense. You need to question these thoughts and LOOK to see if there is any experiential evidence of a past.

Have you been doing this?

Yes, absolutely. And spending time looking at the emotions as you said to, and also sometimes just watching stories as they appear, particularly when 'fear' is present, and asking 'is that true?'. Many of the stories that appear are utterly ridiculous and obviously untrue, particularly those that I hold onto most. For example, when thought says that reassurance is needed, I stop and ask 'is it? what for?' and nothing/no-one can be found that needs reassurance, and no actual purpose behind reassurance itself can be found either

I'm also fearful there will be positive changes in me that will open up new possibilities and opportunities, which I will no longer have excuses not to pursue. I'm scared of not resisting anything that comes my way, and of the potential situations/circumstances that way of living may bring. And also that it will be worse somehow than my life right now, and I will wish to undo it but won't be able to.

Where is this ‘you’ that has choices on whether or not new possibilities and opportunities will be pursued?

As with the question above regarding turbulence, thought goes straight to thoughts and 'behaviour' as having the choices/control. Then, when no thinker can be found it says 'thoughts that lead on from each other come from a thinker',but there are no thoughts that lead on from each other - one thought, for example the thought 'I have choices on new possibilities and opportunities' does not know anything about the thought 'the reason is because thoughts lead one from each other'. they are just appearing. And again no 'i' could be found in behaviour, just colour, sensation and thought about a mover

Did you look to see if you could this “I”?

No but I will from now on


Beanstalk

[forgetmenot]

Hello Beanstalk,

Have you ever looked at thought? Really looked at it? Have you noticed that it doesn't have a voice? You can't hear it. You can't see it. You can't feel it. You can't taste it. You can't smell it. You are aware of it, though. In fact, if you try to describe thought, it's quite impossible. Just look for a second. Ask yourself, "If I'm not a person, what am I?" "Does thought know me? Or is it saying stuff and not knowing what it's talking about?" Notice what thought says, and notice what actually is.

Although we say that thought is appearing or arising…that isn’t quite true. It is a pointer, however this pointer then needs to be looked at. Thought doesn’t appear; it is always here. Thought is experience (THIS/knowing) and experience is always here! It is just thought that says thought is something other than experience. It is only thought that says experience is appearing as thought! So, thought never appears it is always here as thought is experience!
Can you see this?

The other thing I would like you to do is when a thought appears saying something eg “I'm also fearful there will be positive changes in me that will open up new possibilities and opportunities, which I will no longer have excuses not to pursue”….try the following.

'Do I actually KNOW this right now?'
That is a question to ask to help in LOOKING.

LOOKING is about seeing what is actually appearing/happening now. This means LOOKING without taking anything ‘from the past’ as knowing anything in this instant.

So, for example, the idea of anxiety seems to be appearing. Close your eyes and ask:-

- 'What do I know right now?'
- 'I’m feeling anxious about driving my car and having an accident’
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No, I am just sitting with my eyes closed and feeling anxious’
- ‘Do I actually KNOW that right now?’
- 'No, I am just feeling anxious’
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No, There is just sensation in the body'
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- ‘No, there is pressure, blackness and vibration’.
- ‘Do I actually KNOW that right now?’

Just keep asking questions until you come to what is actually known. LOOKING isn't hard to do. Just look at what you actually KNOW right now. Let me know how you go.

Kay

[thursday123]

Kay,

Although we say that thought is appearing or arising…that isn’t quite true. It is a pointer, however this pointer then needs to be looked at. Thought doesn’t appear; it is always here. Thought is experience (THIS/knowing) and experience is always here! It is just thought that says thought is something other than experience. It is only thought that says experience is appearing as thought! So, thought never appears it is always here as thought is experience!
Can you see this?

Yes, I think so. Herenow is all there ever is, and that is experience. There are only thoughts about thoughts appearing/arising. Nothing appears or disappears, they are just ideas. All that is here is here right now, not in some process of coming to be/appearing.

Just keep asking questions until you come to what is actually known. LOOKING isn't hard to do. Just look at what you actually KNOW right now. Let me know how you go.

This worked quite well. Everything I appear to know is just a thought about something that doesn't actually exist. It worked particularly well for more emotionally-based beliefs, as some of the most painful and tightly clutched beliefs are actually the most unsubstantiated. For example:
'They don't like me'
Do I actually know that right now?
'No, but they think I'm weird'
Do I actually know that right now?
'No, but I'm not their favourite person they've ever met'
Do I actually know that right now?
'No, but I met them before'
Do I actually know that right now?
'No, but people exist'
Do I actually know that right now?
'No, there is just colour'

No belief can be found to be true in AE. There are just thoughts about things. This is what I meant by placing a thought in AE -looking to see if there is actual evidence for it rather than going to what thoughts talk about.

Beanstalk

[forgetmenot]

Hi Beanstalk,

Just keep asking questions until you come to what is actually known. LOOKING isn't hard to do. Just look at what you actually KNOW right now. Let me know how you go.

This worked quite well. Everything I appear to know is just a thought about something that doesn't actually exist. It worked particularly well for more emotionally-based beliefs, as some of the most painful and tightly clutched beliefs are actually the most unsubstantiated. For example:
'They don't like me'
Do I actually know that right now?
'No, but they think I'm weird'
Do I actually know that right now?
'No, but I'm not their favourite person they've ever met'
Do I actually know that right now?
'No, but I met them before'
Do I actually know that right now?
'No, but people exist'
Do I actually know that right now?
'No, there is just colour'

'No, there is just colour'
Do I actually even know that right now?
No

Nothing is known as in knowledge, it's known because it is THIS/experience, but in regards to knowledge THIS is unknown.

So now try that exercise with "I am a person who is not getting it", or whatever the thought is that says you haven't realised that you are not a person. Tell me what you find.

I don’t know who wrote the following…but it is spot on

“Thought says I know what this is because it has happened before. That is what they mean when they say the past has already happened. Not that we are observing the past…although I can see why it is said that way…but it is only thought says this has happened before...that something is already known. Nothing has ever happened before…there is no time. So it seems we are living the same thing over and over. We see colour and immediately say it’s an apple because we know it’s an apple based on the past. Do I KNOW that right now? Do I know an apple? No...I don’t know an apple, never have known an apple, all I know is THIS, exactly as it IS. It is only thought that labels things and say that they are known from a past.

And there is no thing unknown.
Therefore an apple cannot be known.
All that is ever known is THIS

How do I KNOW right now that this is anxiety. I don't. A thought appears saying this is familiar and it is anxiety. That is just not true. Anxiety has never been and is unknown...so it cannot have happened or ever existed.
If I sit and close my eyes and look at anxiety, eg and ask...do I KNOW that right now? No...all I know right now is sensation. I ask...do I KNOW that right now...no, sensation is another concept...all I know is and then words stops...because all there is, is THIS and THIS has no name and is indescribable.
I thought the unknown meant that there was nothing in the world that was unknown...that there was no appearances unknown...if it hadn't been seen then it just didn't exist. But it goes deeper than that. There is nothing unknown because THIS always knows itself.

A thought isn't known because of its appearance or its content...it is known because it is THIS/experience.
A colour isn’t known because it is a colour or that it is an appearance...it is known because it is THIS. I thought I had seen that the content of thought was empty...but I hadn't...not until now.”

Kay

[thursday123]

Kay,

So now try that exercise with "I am a person who is not getting it", or whatever the thought is that says you haven't realised that you are not a person. Tell me what you find.

I am yet to fully realise the non-existence of the separate self
Do I actually know that right now?
No, but the non-existence of the separate self can be realised
This one I got stuck on because the usual way is to notice that whatever says I know it is just a thought that cannot be verified, but this isn't verified through thought, it is verified by looking. Or another way of saying it is that there is nothing that actually needs to be verified here, just looking and seeing what is already there is enough. So there's nothing in the statement that actually needs to be known. What is there to realise other than what's already there, and is being realised right now?
Do I actually know that right now?
I know what is, so yes.The non-existence of the separate self cannot be realiaed through thought, it is realised through beingness/what IS, which is and has been happening all the time anyway, so yes it is known
Even if thought content suggests otherwise, THIS will always be known (including thoughts themselves), so even if I don't think I've realised there's no separate self, it cannot help but be realised right now


Beanstalk

[forgetmenot]

Hi Beanstalk,

I know what is, so yes.The non-existence of the separate self cannot be realiaed through thought, it is realised through beingness/what IS, which is and has been happening all the time anyway, so yes it is known
Even if thought content suggests otherwise, THIS will always be known (including thoughts themselves), so even if I don't think I've realised there's no separate self, it cannot help but be realised right now

Yes...nice. There is no person to realise anything. What is there to realise exactly? What IS, has always been and already IS and will always be. But even when coming to that conclusion, it is good to ask the question "Do I actually know that right now" and wait for the answer to arise to meet the question and not just answer the question from thought based knowledge about it all. The knowing arises from within and it cannot be denied, let alone denied by thought. So, give that a go and see what happens. Just sit patiently and allow the answer to arise from the knowing.

Kay

[thursday123]

Kay,

So, give that a go and see what happens. Just sit patiently and allow the answer to arise from the knowing.

I have yet to fully realise the non-existence of the separate self.
Do I actually know that right now?
No
The non-existence of the separate self can be realised.
Do I actually know that right now?
No. Thoughts arise saying 'yes it can', and thoughts arise saying 'no it can't' - neither are true. behind them there is a stillness which knows what truly is, and what truly is is AE. this stillness becomes much clearer when thoughts are just watched as they arise and subside without investment


Beanstalk

[forgetmenot]

Hey Beanstalk,

So, give that a go and see what happens. Just sit patiently and allow the answer to arise from the knowing.

I have yet to fully realise the non-existence of the separate self.
Do I actually know that right now?
No
The non-existence of the separate self can be realised.
Do I actually know that right now?
No. Thoughts arise saying 'yes it can', and thoughts arise saying 'no it can't' - neither are true. behind them there is a stillness which knows what truly is, and what truly is is AE. this stillness becomes much clearer when thoughts are just watched as they arise and subside without investment

Wonderful! So when you did that....how did it make you feel?

Kay

[thursday123]

Kay,

Wonderful! So when you did that....how did it make you feel?

Free and content. Stories can appear as they do but they are not real and cannot hurt me. I can just watch them as they appear and see them for what they are - thoughts


Beanstalk