SelfingStrong

[DrWilko]

Hi Lisa,
Can you please let me know if you are still pursuing this investigation at least every couple of days?
How is it all going?
D x

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave,
Sorry for the delay. Things have been very hectic here but I am still pursuing the investigation. I'm just not sure I have any answers yet. The invisible thread appears to be another thought but I am not confident that I know that for sure. I will reply with answers in my next post.
Thanks,
Lisa

[DrWilko]

Ok - great. There is no rush for answers - as I said, take as long as you need.

All I'm asking is that you send even a short post letting me know you are still pursuing the investigation. I don't guide that many people, so if I don't hear from you at all I wonder whether to wait, or to make contact with a new client.

Please, take your time if you are still not sure. It would be better to have full answers that you are as sure as you can be about than something rushed.

All good wishes,
Dave

[DrWilko]

....also - make sure the questions are read carefully. We are now no longer looking for the thread. We cannot find it, it is invisible. The questions are about what leads you to conclude it is there....

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave,

What is the thought label "assumption" labelling? Actual things or just other thoughts?

Just other thoughts.

Is there anything at all different about a thought that is being labelled as an assumption to any other thought?

No, they are all just thoughts.

For example, you say that "I" is assumed - so the thought I appears, as in "I should do this", and "I" is somehow labelled (assumed) to be real, but does either the original thought, or the label "real" either:
happen to a separate entity,

No.

Is created by a separate entity, or

No.

Is itself an entity that has autonomy and makes stuff happen?

No.

Or is it simply another thought arising with no control over when or whether it arises?

It is simply a thought.



So - to our "thread":
When does it arise exactly?
After the sensation.
Well done. This is a key observation.
What thoughts appear when the thread is there?
What am I going to do, I need to do something, what if I do this, or don't do that, etc...

Is there anything these thoughts appear to have in common?

They all reference "I" and are action oriented.


Try to detect it. It must be pretty sneaky. It makes itself known, yet somewhere it is hiding.

What are the clues you notice when the thread is there?

I notice thoughts and often times sensations when it's there.

Look for clues in tasting hearing smelling sensing seeing and thinking.
Every situation is different, yet this thread seems to be there in so many different situations.
How do you know it is there?

There is some sort of "I" thought present.

What fact or clue, however small or however obvious, in any of the areas in which you are looking, tells you this thread is there in all the different situations in which it appears?

When I notice the thread, there is always some sort of reference to "i". Not necessarily the word itself...it could be an image of "me" in some "imagined" scenario but there is always some sort of "I" thought.


Focus on this. Every time the thread appears - detect like Sherlock Holmes.

What evidence is there that it is there?

Again, there's a thought or image of "I".

Does it leave any traces?

Besides the thought itself? Sometimes sensations.

Some clue leads to an assumption that something is there. What is it?

I'm not sure I got what you wanted me to see here. I was starting to get frustrated so I wanted to write some of this out. Going back to the definition of invisible thread, it was something that appears to link the sensation (stress) to something being done about it...or anything that appears to be a result of the sensation. So there is the sensation, then a flurry of thought and activity. The only thing that links them is a thought or image of an "I" "doing something about it". But that thought really has no impact on anything. It's just a label/word/image...a way of speaking but not an actual thing that makes stuff happen. I think what got us started on this was me saying that the past few weeks had been stressful, it felt like it was happening "to me" and that "I" was doing something about it. Based on this most recent exercise, it still feels like a very intellectual understanding that there is no "I" who is "doing" anything in response to the "stress". I feel like I am spinning my wheels here.
Thank you,
Lisa

[DrWilko]

Hi Lisa,

Before I address your replies, it seems important here to address expectations once more.

You have suggested before that you don't expect anything to change necessarily, just that "it will no longer be believed" - as in the notion of a self.

Can I ask - do you believe in self? Please answer, but whether yes or no:

Can you describe what "belief" is. If you say, "just a thought" - what is it that is labeled "belief", and how is that different to any other thought?

If the answer is that it is no different from any other thought, what is it exactly you are expecting to change? Does a thought labelled "real" or "something believed' make any difference to anything?

If no - then it is unclear to me what it is you are looking for here. You may think you have no expectations beyond this, yet this expectation would appear to be getting in the way - the notion of belief (which is nothing more than a thought labelling other thoughts) and that somehow this will disappear.

Is there anything these thoughts appear to have in common?

They all reference "I"

Again, this is a key observation. Well done. At each stage of this, look at the following questions:

What does the thought "I" actually point to? Have we found an "I" anywhere we have looked, or simply tasting seeing smelling hearing sensing thinking?

Is the thought "I" pointing to some entity outside of tasting seeing smelling hearing sensing thinking?

If so, are you saying that self exists separate to tasting smelling seeing hearing sensing thinking?

Where could that possibly be?

What are the clues you notice when the thread is there?

I notice thoughts and often times sensations when it's there.

Be specific. What thoughts? Now ask/answer the above questions again.

How do you know it is there?

There is some sort of "I" thought present.

Good - accept the implications of your own answers. Ask /answer the questions above again.

What fact or clue, however small or however obvious, in any of the areas in which you are looking, tells you this thread is there in all the different situations in which it appears?

When I notice the thread, there is always some sort of reference to "i". Not necessarily the word itself...it could be an image of "me" in some "imagined" scenario but there is always some sort of "I" thought.

Good! Just look at that thought/image every time it appears. Is that image actual experience, or simply a story created habitually time after time after time (,with the operative word being "after" in this case!)

What evidence is there that it is there?

Again, there's a thought or image of "I".

Is that evidence of an actual thread actually joining sensation to a so called self? Or simply another thought creating a story about a sensation and an imagined entity separate to sensation? Time after time after time...

Some clue leads to an assumption that something is there. What is it?

I'm not sure I got what you wanted me to see here. I was starting to get frustrated

What is the sensation? If you sink into it, and then simply watch the thoughts that arise, is there such a "thing" as frustration? Or are there simply sensations? At what point in the experience is there a story about "I" being frustrated?

so I wanted to write some of this out.

Go back to that sense of "frustration". This is a perfect area to look at. Did this notion of you wanting to do something about a sensation arise before or after an actual impulse to move towards or away from a sensation? Is the sensation actual frustration or simply a sensation labelled pleasant or unpleasant?

Is there actually a thread joing the sensation to an I who is frustrated, and wants to write stuff out, or do those things simply happen and thoughts come along after to create some kind of story about them involving an I who is frustrated and wants stuff?

The only thing that links them is a thought or image of an "I" "doing something about it". But that thought really has no impact on anything. It's just a label/word/image...a way of speaking but not an actual thing that makes stuff happen.

Yes, that is correct.

Based on this most recent exercise, it still feels like a very intellectual understanding

Expectations notwithstanding, have you noticed any changes at all since this investigation started? Please answer fully.

Are you still looking for something? Is there still "seeking energy" - a need to find something that isn't already found?

If so, can you describe how you would know it when whatever it is was found?

Big love x

[EMWBerry]

Thanks Dave...I am working on this...will post shortly..,

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave,

Can I ask - do you believe in self? Please answer, but whether yes or no:

it is much less convincing then it once was but when I ask the question, I’m not able to answer no. I see how the self is just assumed and how language plays a part in that, but it just so convincing and it’s everywhere.

Can you describe what "belief" is. If you say, "just a thought" - what is it that is labeled "belief", and how is that different to any other thought?

A belief does feel much different than a thought to me. I’m not sure I can say why. When I actually look, I can see that it’s a thought...but it just feels more solid and definite. Like it has some weight or substance to it...even though that weight or substance cannot be found.

At each stage of this, look at the following questions:

What does the thought "I" actually point to? Have we found an "I" anywhere we have looked, or simply tasting seeing smelling hearing sensing thinking?

It points to nothing that I can find.

Is the thought "I" pointing to some entity outside of tasting seeing smelling hearing sensing thinking?

No.

I thoughts and often times sensations when it's there.

Be specific. What thoughts? Now ask/answer the above questions again.

Small example...daughter did something and I got angry...this is annoying (I am annoyed), why does she always do that (to me is implied), this is stressful (how am I going to handle this), etc...

Good - accept the implications of your own answers. Ask /answer the questions above again.

Answers are the same.

Good! Just look at that thought/image every time it appears. Is that image actual experience, or simply a story created habitually time after time after time (,with the operative word being "after" in this case!)

It’s a story created habitually time after time.

What evidence is there that it is there?

Again, there's a thought or image of "I".

Is that evidence of an actual thread actually joining sensation to a so called self? Or simply another thought creating a story about a sensation and an imagined entity separate to sensation? Time after time after time...

No, not evidence, just another thought.

I'm not sure I got what you wanted me to see here. I was starting to get frustrated

What is the sensation? If you sink into it, and then simply watch the thoughts that arise, is there such a "thing" as frustration? Or are there simply sensations? At what point in the experience is there a story about "I" being frustrated?

A fluttering in the chest. They are the sensations and the story or thoughts about being frustrated come after.

so I wanted to write some of this out.

Go back to that sense of "frustration". This is a perfect area to look at. Did this notion of you wanting to do something about a sensation arise before or after an actual impulse to move towards or away from a sensation? Is the sensation actual frustration or simply a sensation labelled pleasant or unpleasant?

The notion of wanting to do something arose after the impulse to move away from the sensation. It’s a sensation labeled pleasant or unpleasant.

Is there actually a thread joing the sensation to an I who is frustrated, and wants to write stuff out, or do those things simply happen and thoughts come along after to create some kind of story about them involving an I who is frustrated and wants stuff?

These things happen then thoughts come along after.

Based on this most recent exercise, it still feels like a very intellectual understanding

Expectations notwithstanding, have you noticed any changes at all since this investigation started? Please answer fully.

I can’t really say that I’ve noticed any changes since the investigation started, aside from the fact that things have been very, very challenging the last few months. If you go through periods in your life where things sort of move along nicely and then all of sudden they don’t, I’m at a stage where they don’t. Very much in a transitional period and it’s been unsettling. Maybe a little chaotic? I’m not sure how much of it has to do with this or how much of it is life just doing its thing. I have recently thought to myself though, this doesn’t feel like my life or how did I actually get here.

Are you still looking for something? Is there still "seeking energy" - a need to find something that isn't already found?

Yes, there is still seeking energy.

If so, can you describe how you would know it when whatever it is was found?

Well ideally the need to seek would stop. I hope I would just be ok with what’s here, whatever that is.

I hope I got it all. Thanks Dave...

[DrWilko]

Dear Lisa,

Sorry that life has been chaotic for you and that this has coincided with this investigation... Maybe this is making things more difficult than they might otherwise be.

Anyway:
This is where I think we are at right now.

Firstly it is clear that when we began this process that there was what you called a clear intellectual understanding of the lack of self. When we have talked about expectations, as in what do you expect to be the results of going through this process, you said that you didn't necessarily expect anything to change just that you would no longer believe in it.

Feels like we're still back there really.
We have talked about how beliefs and assumptions don't necessarily drop straight away once the illusion of self is seen through. We've also talked about how seeing through the illusion of self doesn't happen by thinking about it, but by looking at direct experience and seeing what can be verified to be true.

However, it seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you are still waiting for some magic moment whereby something will or will not be believed or will or will not be assumed.

For example at the moment I'm asking you to look as closely as possible at something that you have said since the very beginning is invisible. If I asked you what you know to be true from experience I think you would have to agree that whenever you look this invisible sense of self is not actually to be found beyond experience. Beyond experience and beyond a thought saying that such a thing exists and that such a thing must be there. Even though it appears you see this, because (you say) there is still belief or assumption, you cannot be sure the illusion of self is seen through.

When I asked you if there is a separate self in any form whatsoever you have told me that no there isn't. When I asked you is this you speaking from logic or actual experience you then tell me that logically, you see this, but in direct experience you are not sure. From over hear it seems to me it is actually the other way around! Every time you look and answer from direct experience, your answers seem pretty clear and unambiguous - no separate self can be found. However, once you talk about what you logically or intellectually get - it isn't long before the concepts of belief and assumption are mentioned. This is where you seem to keep getting lost.

Belief or assumption are simply labels for other thoughts. "Real" is a label for another thought. Belief is not a thing. Assumption is not a thing. There is no extra special significance to a thought labelled "real" or "assumed" or "believed". It remains simply a thought.

It looks like you're taking actual experience and running it back through thought to see whether it makes sense or not before deciding whether you trust your own answers or your own discoveries. But that isn't really how seeing through the illusion works. How it works is just answering as simply as you can - is there a separate self anywhere at all? What do you find when you look? Is sense of self an actual separate thing? What do you find when you look?

Be absolutely honest, are we waiting for some magic "Aha!" moment where suddenly the world turns upside down and everything that you thought was true is no longer thought to be true? Well I am sorry to tell you this is almost certainly not going to be the case. Something "thought" to be true is simply a thought of something true, not truth itself.

Knowing the illusion of self has been seen through does appear differently to different people, but from what I can tell, fireworks or mystical experiences seem fairly rare.

You want to know from direct experience that self is an illusion. You want it to make sense intellectually that self is an illusion. You want this nagging feeling that there is something else also to stop. What is the nagging feeling? We've looked at this - what was found is that it is a product of sensation, plus a thought saying that this therefore must equal something that is happening to our self or that a self must do something about it. Where is the self that it's happening to? Where is the self that will do something about it? Well, we have looked and we've not been able to find it anywhere. It appears to be a thought and a thought only. Another thought says this must mean something more.

Just because you continue to think of Santa Claus every Christmas doesn't mean Santa Claus exists anymore than Santa Claus existed when you were a child and you actually believed that he did. But we still continue to think about Santa Claus.

Is this a case of over-intellectualising do you think?

I think there are a couple of ways we could go from here. I am happy to keep guiding you but I think we're going to keep coming up with the same thing. You've looked everywhere and not found a self, yet somehow you continue to think there is. And even though you know from direct experience that it can't be found you're unable to let go of this thought, and to stop adding yet more thought to this that says this must be a  thought about something "real". Until you see that it's not with thought that this is known there isn't really much further we can go or much more I feel I can actually help you with.

This by no means means that it is a lost cause. A break and a review of what you've learned by going back over the thread would definitely be a good idea. Another thing worth considering is just simply a change of approach. Perhaps starting as though from the beginning with a different guide might help. If that is something that you would like to consider, I would be happy to find a guide to continue working with you. This is a relatively common occurrence on this forum and the guides are all in touch with eachother when issues like this arise. It may take a few days or a week or so but I'm sure someone can be found to continue investigating with you, and in the meantime you can be reviewing a (very lengthy by now!) investigation so far.

Let me know how you would like to proceed.

All good wishes,
Dave

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave,
Thanks for all of the feedback. I think your assessment below is pretty accurate. I am a little confused about the fireworks/AHA moment comments though. Are you saying that if I have an expectation of fireworks where everything changes, then that would prevent me from realizing that I've seen through the illusion? Maybe I am totally fooling myself but my only expectation is that I would know for sure that there is no me. If you are saying that sense of self never really drops away and nothing really changes as far as experience goes, then perhaps this is it. Earlier this morning, there was something that came up and I asked, who is this happening to. The answer I get is "me". Where is this me? I look, but I really can't really pinpoint a me. Or..."I need to protect myself is this situation." Where is the me that needs protecting? Same thing. But that sense of self or me being somewhere in the body never really goes away. Like a dog chasing his tail. If that's not going to change, and I've seen what I need to see, or I just need to keep looking in all of these different situations, then I'm not sure we need to go any further. If I haven't really seen through it, then I'd hate to abandon this as it would feel like wasted effort. Maybe I could think about this for a few days, re-read the thread and get back to you on how we should proceed? Let me know if that sounds ok. Thank you for everything Dave. I am so, so grateful.

Lisa

[DrWilko]

Hi Lisa,

Thank you for your responses.

Are you saying that if I have an expectation of fireworks where everything changes, then that would prevent me from realizing that I've seen through the illusion?

Just that whatever it is you are expecting, be prepared for it not necessarily being that way.

Maybe I am totally fooling myself but my only expectation is that I would know for sure that there is no me.

Yes - and what is it to know something from actual experience?

If you are saying that sense of self never really drops away and nothing really changes as far as experience goes, then perhaps this is it.

There are still stories, though the stories are seen to be simply thoughts, not actual things. What you are referring to as "sense of self" is seen to be simply the sum total of experience in the moment, and a purely habitual thought reference appearing when moving towards or away from sensation, which does not in any way operate as a self separate from experience.

Earlier this morning, there was something that came up and I asked, who is this happening to. The answer I get is "me". Where is this me? I look, but I really can't really pinpoint a me.

Keep looking - especially on the level of separation - is there sensation and something/someone separate from sensation experiencing it? Or just sensing? Is the sense that something is happening to someone inherent in the experience itself - or can you see this being added on by thinking this must be the case afterwards?

Maybe I could think about this for a few days, re-read the thread and get back to you on how we should proceed?

Please take as long as you need going through the thread and let me know what you would like to do. As I said, I am happy to continue, or find you another guide - if you are still not clear, a fresh approach might genuinely be a way to help.

Can I ask again you just send a quick post every couple of days up until you have worked out how to proceed?

All good wishes,
Dave

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave...yes, will definitely post every couple of days.

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave - I am still working my way through the thread. Is it ok if I take another couple of days?

[DrWilko]

Take as long as you need Lisa. Just keep me updated. Thank you!

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave - still working on this And going through the exercises. Might have some questions shortly...