RiverRock

[Drumps]

Hi Kay,

Just briefly, just wanted to let you know I've not run away.

I've had some issues I've been dealing with for the last week or so and just wanted to clear those out the way. I'll come back to so soon and certainly by the weekend.

love, John

[forgetmenot]

Hey John,

Nice to hear from you. I am happy that you didn't run away...though I profess to thinking you had. :) I look forward to your next post.

Love, Kay

[Drumps]

I profess to thinking you had

I think you know me better than that. ;-)

[Drumps]

Hi Kay,

I've been thinking about what you said in your last post as well as going over the FAQ's that we looked at at the beginning of the exercise. And it is clear to me that you are right. It is just about expectations. What I have tried to tell you over the most recent posts is that I do clearly see there is no self (as well as other things) and that there is more peace here generally because of that. But then I get lost again and tend to think I am being a hoax. But whatever changes in the way of looking have happened here are real, I think. It's just when I read previously about the fairly euphoric way that all other people seem to be when they have seen, that's not really how I feel at all, or not much.

The fear as you described it about the questions is real and I think that is maybe because I don't think my answers would be typical of what I have read others write. But no problem why don't you shoot them to me and I'll give them my best shot. I remember a general gist of what they are but I haven't been doing too much reading recently and can't remember them all exactly.

And yes I honestly did think that the separate I wasn't appearing to you in the same way as I experience it but having given it some thought that is probably where I have been going wrong and where the unrealistic expectations were getting the better of me. Why would it be any different?

To you there has to be a definitive end...and there isn't one. The realisation deepens and other beliefs start to fall away. Are you thinking that all your baggage etc should just drop off because you have seen? It doesn't work that way and wishing that it did, isn't going to change it. We all have to work through our baggage before it starts to drop away and become less sticky.

I find those words strangely comforting. I think you've nailed me in terms of where I've been going wrong but the prospect that where I am at is just a starting point (and that's the way it normally is) is encouraging and I'm up for whatever deepening needs to be worked on from here.

Over to you.

Love, John

[forgetmenot]

Hi John,

What I have tried to tell you over the most recent posts is that I do clearly see there is no self (as well as other things) and that there is more peace here generally because of that. But then I get lost again and tend to think I am being a hoax. But whatever changes in the way of looking have happened here are real, I think. It's just when I read previously about the fairly euphoric way that all other people seem to be when they have seen, that's not really how I feel at all, or not much.

Yes, doubt is normal. Many years of habiting yourself to be a separate self, does not unhabit itself overnight. It is how you feel that is the litmus test, and not what thoughts appear. Thought will continue to appear saying all sorts of things...but it's to see if they are actually point to reality or pointing to story. The so called journeyless journey, paradoxically does have a journey to it! When doubt sets in, see if you can find that which is doubting! :)

I find those words strangely comforting. I think you've nailed me in terms of where I've been going wrong but the prospect that where I am at is just a starting point (and that's the way it normally is) is encouraging and I'm up for whatever deepening needs to be worked on from here.

Once you have answered the following questions and everything is clear, you will be invited to the LU FB groups. You can ask questions there and you will have opportunities to deepen the investigation as well.

Would you be able to answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Sending love,
Kay

[Drumps]

Thanks Kay,

Apologies for the late reply. Life. I had actually started this after I got your message then saved a draft and then things caught up.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There are thoughts of me and often a sense of me but none of those constitute a me. And when investigation into that me takes place it is seen that there is nothing behind it. And that what I had thought was me all along as the center of my being, the controlling entity, the doer, the thinker, it totally and utterly empty. Thoughts and feelings exist without a me they are happening to. Experience just is. As we have discussed, I do not feel radically different because of this and the same, thoughts worries, emotions happen, feelings happen, so experientially not much has changed, but this is underpinned by an absolute certainty that everything is just arising of its own accord. No me, just what is happening, to no one. And it has always been this way but I am also less interested in the way things were in a supposed past. I'm interested in what is now. Investigation has also shown me clearly and in very tangible ways that all the thought stories happen after events and not before. When you look hard you can see that and sometimes things almost seem to slow down to let you see the sequence. Further evidence, lest it be needed, that the apparent thinking/doing me is well behind the curve. Or put another way that the me doesn't exist and the thoughts floating about, cause nothing and are fairly random waves trying to comment on, and often claim doership for, events. No me, never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is just a thought, nothing more. And a learned concept. Basically taught firstly by parents and then wider society. Drummed in time and time again until the belief in the illusory self becomes rock solid. We know its not there at the beginning of life. And part of the reason we know that is, throughout the rest of life at moments during our waking day we experience moments regularly when the illusion of self IS NOT THERE, at all. It comes and goes, peaks and troughs. And generally seems to be heightened when supposed survival issues are perceived, or strong desires, or strong resistance. What I mean by this is I don't think most of us can remember being a one year old baby, but there is enough of what I imagine that experience to be, in most of our daily lives, in quiet moments.
As far as I see it now, and since we started our inquiry, the times when the illusory self is there is much diminished. Much more time when its not there at all. And when it does rear it's head, and seems to grab me, particularly when thought patterns seem to run away with themselves in times of stress or anxiety, it lasts not so long and I can step back from it and see that it is just thought patterns arising.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Hmmm. This is where I have to be careful. Not the way I thought it would. Not really a whole realignment of the tectonic planes and, alas, constant peace and contentment. Far from it. But it gives me a place to go to. To ground myself in an understanding of what's true and real, and whats not, and to be very certain of that. When things are challenging, or even when they are not, I can rest in what is, not what thought says about things (nothing is what thought says it is and that's quite funny to me when you grasp it). And that is really a solid foundation to be on, very far from the choppy waters of most of the rest of my supposed life. And to spend less time looking for reason and meaning in things. Just rest with what is. And as I have said to you before the sitting in what is in a headless way is very liberating, and in a very tangible way all separation drops and no division between seer and seen because there is no seer and you just exist withing, and as, the seen. And in this way how it feels to see this is indeed fun, but only when I focus on it and normally not on its own.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Well I think it was you who dragged me over by pointing out that I was already over, somehow.

But really important things for me were anything and everything that involved sitting with sensations in the body. Which remains very important to me. Such supposedly "personal" experience and yet those feelings just sit there, utterly impersonal. And the thought stories that arise about those sensations (pain, sadness, love, fear) are just made up narratives, which when you try, are quite easy to see through.

And obviously any exercises we did which examined doership, ownership of events, or thoughts, when we see that things in actual fact just happen and the reason why we can't control them is there isn't anyone there. At first this realisation is worrying and then, yes, liberating.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Well the easy way to answer that is to say that things just happen, out of nothing, and I and no one else can say why or how. Everything happens as experience.
We think, of course, that we have free will and think up things and make choices but that isn't so. Thoughts just arise out of nothing and thoughts don't make anything happen, as it took me quite a while to see. THoughts are basically retrospective commentary after an apparent event, claiming doershsip (haha). Thoughts happen, actions happen - not related. Nor are thoughts related to other thoughts nor sequential, that is just a thought arising. Cause and effect, which I had problems with earlier because I believed in it so strongly, is actually a false premise. For the simple reason it, by definition, implies separation. Things affecting other things, over time. And that is false because there is only now and what is arising, itself.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

I think this is partly where the freedom that we describe comes from. Without a me, nor "cause and effect" and me making things happen, "I" am clearly not responsible for anything. What I truly am isn't doing anything, or interested in judging anything. So the issue of responsibility just doesn't come into it. And that is immeasurably liberating for someone like me who seems to have grown up with a permanent sense of Catholic guilt as my bedfellow. These typed words are just happening in front of me and I am thinking I have written them. But I haven't. And they aren't words and this isn't a computer and I'm not sat in a hotel room. That's all just a thought arising. All it is, is awareness and the content of awareness, not separate, arising right now.

6) Anything to add?

We talked earlier about expectations, and how I expected the seeing of no self to be different. For me it has been more subtle than that but I would say no less profound for it. Like I said to you for some time now things have been different here and my perspective has certainly changed. I haven't read anything since we started since mid December and I don't know why that is. I just think I have found this inquiry enough. And even in the times when I have gone quiet for a bit, especially recently, the new perspective remains with me. Like I said to you, I've changed. Just not in the way I'd thought I would.

I want to thank you Kay for all of the love and patience you have shown me. I really appreciate it and it's funny not even knowing anything about you or what you even look like. But you have been the best guide I could have hoped for and wherever I'm at is down to you - and a little effort from me too ;-)

Love, John

[forgetmenot]

Hello John,

Thank you for your detailed answers to the questions. I am going to get a couple of other guides to check our thread to make sure I have covered everything and that I am clear in my pointing. Once they have read the thread, they may come back with some further questions. When they have let me know, I will let you know. If everything is clear with my pointing etc, you will be invited to join LU aftercare groups on Facebook, which are a good support for any doubts, confusion or questions that arise.

I want to thank you Kay for all of the love and patience you have shown me. I really appreciate it and it's funny not even knowing anything about you or what you even look like. But you have been the best guide I could have hoped for and wherever I'm at is down to you - and a little effort from me too ;-)

It has been my pleasure guiding you. Thank you for being so willing to look at what was being pointed and for your honesty throughout our journey together to the gateless gate.

Love, Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hey John,

Congratulations, and welcome through the Gateless Gate! There are no further questions for you. As I said in my last post, it has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you and point the way. Thank you for being so open and willing to LOOK!

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you. Your username, on the forum, will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions etc via the forums PM system, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Love, Kay