Die before you die

[Vivien]

Hi Rachel,

It's not a constant recognition, as in when I am going about the day, I'm not constantly aware of holding this information. But all I can describe it as, there is more of a sense of relaxation in the body. Often when I am speaking, thinking of doing something the recognition that there is no me 'doing' anything might arise and this feels true, I don't feel doubt. It's not that I don't feel a sensation of a 'me' or that I don't use the words me or 'i', they have lost the feeling of the 'personal'.

Yes, this is normal. The sense of me or the sense of doer doesn’t have to absent all the time. It’s enough to see them for what they are.

I’d like to ask you to look at all the questions again regarding the body, not just the unanswered ones.
So, do the whole exercise again, and write new replies. I’ll reply to them then.

Vivien

[Rachszk]

Hi yes I'm going to start from the beginning.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Sorry I am struggling with some of these questions, I'm not sure I understand them. Can it be known how tall the body is? No. Does the body have weight/volume? No.

Does the body have a shape or form? No.

Is there a boundary between body/clothing, body/chair?. Yes there is the feeling of my body part and clothes covering it. There is a feeling of the body or part of the body in contact with my bed and I am sitting in my bed, so my body ends and the bed begins. I can feel this boundary or division.

Is there an inside/outside? Sorry, I don't know. When I look, I just feel unsure .

The outside of what exactly? I just don't seem to be able to answer this question without using the mind.

What does the word/label 'body' refer to? A combination of blood, bones, muscle , brain, and organs, put together in a certain way, with skin on the outside.


What is the actual experience of the body? It's sensations, direct experience of the body is very difficult! The mind quickly creates a picture when I focus on the body. As focus shifts to different parts I can see these Parts in my minds eye.The best I can answer is there are different sensation, generally where one body part is in contact with another or an object.All sensations, like my heart beating, or my hand tapping this screen are felt or known. I notice that I only feel certain parts of the body, like where there is pressure or a sensation. Sometimes I can see there is no separation between awarenesss/knowing and the body.

[Vivien]

Hi Rachel,

V: Is there a boundary between body/clothing, body/chair?

R: Yes there is the feeling of my body part and clothes covering it. There is a feeling of the body or part of the body in contact with my bed and I am sitting in my bed, so my body ends and the bed begins. I can feel this boundary or division.

Let’s look at this closely.

“There is the feeling of my body part and clothes covering it”

So thee a sensation labelled as ‘body part’.
There is another sensation labelled ‘the feeling of clothes covering the body part’.
So there are two sensations present with different labels. But they are just sensations. Only thoughts suggest that one is coming from a body part, and the other is from the contact of clothes.

Also, there might be mental images arising with the content of a body part being covered with clothes.
But that is not the actual experience of ‘a body part being covered with clothes’, but the actual experience of a mental image. Is this clear?

So, in actual experience (AE), there are:
- two sensations
- two mental labels “body part” and “feeling of clothes”
- mental image

But concentrate only on the sensations, and try to ignore the labels and the mental image.

Does the sensation itself (labelled ‘body part’), suggest in any way that it’s a ‘body part’ or ‘it’s coming from a body part’?

Does the sensation itself (labelled ‘contact with clothes’), suggest in any way that there is a clothes touching the body part or the skin?
Are there two sensations present, a sensation (of clothes) and a sensation (of skin or body part)?

There is a feeling of the body or part of the body in contact with my bed and I am sitting in my bed

Again, there might be a mental image arising about the body being in bed. That’s just a mental image. Look at the pure sensation itself.
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a ‘bed’?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a ‘body part’?

Now try to focus to the suppose contact area. Does the sensation suggest in any way that there are two things (bed and body part) contacting? How many sensations are there?

so my body ends and the bed begins

You say that there are 2 sensations present.
- the sensation of the body
- and the sensation of the bed

You say you can feel where the bed begins. Can this be really felt? Or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Focus on the pure sensation labelled ‘here is where the bed begins’. Does the sensation suggest in any way that there is a bed at all? Or is there only ONE SINGLE SENSATION?

V: Is there an inside/outside?

R: Sorry, I don't know. When I look, I just feel unsure .

Focus only on the pure sensations that are present right now (with closed eyes), and ignore all mental images about the body.

Does the pure sensation itself suggest and inside or an outside?
Is there an AE of inside or outside?

V: What does the word/label 'body' refer to?

R: A combination of blood, bones, muscle , brain, and organs, put together in a certain way, with skin on the outside.

This is an intellectual description. It’s a learned knowledge. But what does AE shows?

All sensations, like my heart beating, or my hand tapping this screen are felt or known.

“heart beating” - How is it know that the sensation is the heart beating?
Does the sensation itself suggest any way that there is a heart at all?
Let alone a beating heart?

Vivien

[Rachszk]

Hi,

Also, there might be mental images arising with the content of a body part being covered with clothes.
But that is not the actual experience of ‘a body part being covered with clothes’, but the actual experience of a mental image. Is this clear?

Yes

. Does the sensation itself (labelled ‘body part’), suggest in any way that it’s a ‘body part’ or ‘it’s coming from a body part’?

Does the sensation itself (labelled ‘contact with clothes’), suggest in any way that there is a clothes touching the body part or the skin?
Are there two sensations present, a sensation (of clothes) and a sensation (of skin or body part)?

No the sensation does not suggest it is coming from a body part, that is the label my mind gives it.

The sensation 'contact with clothes' again no this label comes from the mind.

There are not two sensations, only one.

. Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a ‘bed’?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a ‘body part’?

No and no.

. Now try to focus to the suppose contact area. Does the sensation suggest in any way that there are two things (bed and body part) contacting? How many sensations are there?

Ok, I've looked at this several times today, there is only one sensation. There is a feeling of pressure so I know that my body or leg is pressing against something.

. You say you can feel where the bed begins. Can this be really felt? Or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Focus on the pure sensation labelled ‘here is where the bed begins’. Does the sensation suggest in any way that there is a bed at all? Or is there only ONE SINGLE SENSATION?

No I cannot feel where the bed begins. I'm not sure what you mean by the following question, Does the sensation suggest there is a bed? No, but it suggests my legs are pressed against something as I can feel the pressure. And yes there is only one sensation.

.
Does the pure sensation itself suggest and inside or an outside?
Is there an AE of inside or outside

No there is just sensation.

. “heart beating” - How is it know that the sensation is the heart beating?
Does the sensation itself suggest any way that there is a heart at all?
Let alone a beating heart?

I know the heart is beating because I have been taught that the pounding in my chest is my heart, and I can feel if it beats faster. The sensation of direct feeling does not tell me anything other than the feeling.

That's the best I can do with these questions, I've sat with them on and off all day, I've spent sometime meditating and focusing directly on bodily sensation. , But I'm not sure exactly what your pointing at? Thanks Rachel

[Vivien]

Hi Rachel,

I've spent sometime meditating and focusing directly on bodily sensation. , But I'm not sure exactly what your pointing at?

What I’m pointing at that the word ‘body’ points to nothing else than sensations!
In reality, there is no such thing as body. Body is just another mental construct.
There might be thoughts and mental images ABOUT a ‘body’, but those cannot be found in actual experience.

Let’s look at the hand. What is it that is really present?
- there is a sensation, which is the AE of sensation, but not of a hand.
- there is a mental label ‘hand’, but it’s the AE of a thought.
- there is a mental image ABOUT a hand, but that is just the AE of a mental image, not the AE of a hand.
- there might be a ‘visual image’ of a hand, but that is the AE of a visual sight, not the AE of a hand.

No matter where we look, we just cannot find a hand as such. This is the same with every body parts, and the whole body itself.

Investigate the above sentences. Let me know how it goes.

There is a feeling of pressure so I know that my body or leg is pressing against something.

But how do you know this? – the sensation itself doesn’t say anything about ‘pressure’, ‘body’, ‘leg’, ‘pressing’. None of it! There is only sensation.

Does the sensation know about a ‘body’, ‘leg’ or ‘pressing’?
Does the sensation know or suggest any way that ‘it’s the sensation of pressure’?

Does the sensation suggest there is a bed? No, but it suggests my legs are pressed against something as I can feel the pressure.

Are you sure that the sensation suggests that ‘my legs are pressed against something’?

Does the sensation suggests this, or rather it’s just the content of a thought or mental image which is not seen only as a thought or mental image, but rather their contents are taken as reality?

“The sensation suggests my legs are pressed against something as I can feel the pressure.” – where is the FEELER that supposedly feels the pressure?

Vivien

[Rachszk]

Hi Vivian, thanks for the reply. I have spent a little time with the questions and hand exercise but it has been so hectic today. Really sorry, I do feel bad, as I appreciate the time you are putting in to respond and the fact that you reply so quickly but I will need to take some more time with these questions and I will reply to them tomorrow, regards, Rachel.

[Vivien]

Hi Rachel,

No problem. Thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien

[Rachszk]

What I’m pointing at that the word ‘body’ points to nothing else than sensations!
In reality, there is no such thing as body. Body is just another mental construct.

Morning, yes I can see the first sentence. But the second sentence, this image of a body in my mind is very strong. And I find it very difficult to focus on any area of the body without instantly creating a mental image of either that part of the body or a larger chunk of the body. I'm struggling a bit with the second sentence. Do you mean in actual Experience, experience of 'hand' is simply sensations everything is else is mind overlay, the mental image of the hand and the words 'my hand'. If so then I can see that.

Let’s look at the hand. What is it that is really present?
- there is a sensation, which is the AE of sensation, but not of a hand.
- there is a mental label ‘hand’, but it’s the AE of a thought.
- there is a mental image ABOUT a hand, but that is just the AE of a mental image, not the AE of a hand.
- there might be a ‘visual image’ of a hand, but that is the AE of a visual sight, not the AE of a hand.

No matter where we look, we just cannot find a hand as such. This is the same with every body parts, and the whole body itself.

Investigate the above sentences. Let me know how it goes.

'no matter where we look we cannot find a hand as such' - do you mean hand is just a label for a body part and AE of a hand is simply sensations.

.
Does the sensation know about a ‘body’, ‘leg’ or ‘pressing’?
Does the sensation know or suggest any way that ‘it’s the sensation of pressure’?

No the sensation itself is just sensation, the knowledge that this is a feeling of pressure comes from the mind/thought.

.

Does the sensation know about a ‘body’, ‘leg’ or ‘pressing’?
Does the sensation know or suggest any way that ‘it’s the sensation of pressure’?

Are you sure that the sensation suggests that ‘my legs are pressed against something’?

Does the sensation suggests this, or rather it’s just the content of a thought or mental image which is not seen only as a thought or mental image, but rather their contents are taken as reality?

Ok, so the reality right now is I am sat on my bed replying to these questions. My legs are straight out in front of me resting or pressing on the bedd, this is a description of what is happening. If I move attention to the legs, (or attention moves to the legs, no 'i' moving attention) , then there is sensation or physical feeling. Instantly mind creates a mental image of my legs on the bed, which I suppose is a helpful thing for mind to do. So I pull attention back only to the sensation. What says these are legs? What says these are pressed against a bed? When I stay with direct experiencee (which is tricky, mind keeps creating a visual) there is simply feeling, sensation, without reference to past experience I could not say what is happening. I could not say this feeling is legs on a bed, or that this is a feeling of pressure . So I have been trying to stay with direct experience as much as possible (although it's funny to say things like thatsbecause I realise now that I cannot control this process, and how much time I spend focusing on my body is simply what happens. It's like the words coming out my mouth don't actually match what's happening, but I say them any way,it's just description ), but as said, I'll continue to stay with ae of the body, as I think the mental habit of visualising and labelling is very strong.

.
Does the sensation suggests this, or rather it’s just the content of a thought or mental image which is not seen only as a thought or mental image, but rather their contents are taken as reality?

Yes I can see this, the mind constructs a picture of what is happening or of body parts and these are taken to be what is happening right now. So actually alot of my 'bodily' experience' is just mind activity.

. “The sensation suggests my legs are pressed against something as I can feel the pressure.” – where is the FEELER that supposedly feels the pressure?

I cannot find a 'feeler' there is just feeling. But I can see my mind seems to hold my body together like glue, formulating a bigger picture in my mind. Saying 'this is my body' and creating a mental image. I think what is actually happening is the mind is saying 'my body' as if there is somehow ownership of the body by some entity. But in ae there is simply sensations and movement. I will continue to stay with this through the day as it come to mind as I am not seeing this clearly yet. If I see anything differently I'll messages again this evening, thank you so much Rachel.

[Vivien]

Hi Rachel,

this image of a body in my mind is very strong. And I find it very difficult to focus on any area of the body without instantly creating a mental image of either that part of the body or a larger chunk of the body.

It’s all right, if an image about the body arises. It’s not a problem. You don’t have to push it away. Actually, the more you try to push it away, the stronger it gets. So let it be there. When you realize that the attention is on the image and not on the sensation, just gently move the attention back to the sensation. Do this as many times as needed.

Do you mean in actual Experience, experience of 'hand' is simply sensations everything is else is mind overlay, the mental image of the hand and the words 'my hand'. If so then I can see that.

Yes, exactly.

'no matter where we look we cannot find a hand as such' - do you mean hand is just a label for a body part and AE of a hand is simply sensations

The ‘hand’ is a label on the sensation. It’s also a label on the mental image. And label on the visual sight.

‘Hand’ as such cannot be found, other than a label. Since in actual experience there is only sensation, mental image, visual image, and the label. But no hand as such. Can you see this?

No the sensation itself is just sensation, the knowledge that this is a feeling of pressure comes from the mind/thought.

And as you've already discovered, the content of a thought is just an idea, a concept, but never the reality.

What says these are legs? What says these are pressed against a bed? When I stay with direct experiencee (which is tricky, mind keeps creating a visual) there is simply feeling, sensation, without reference to past experience I could not say what is happening. I could not say this feeling is legs on a bed, or that this is a feeling of pressure .

Exactly.

Yes I can see this, the mind constructs a picture of what is happening or of body parts and these are taken to be what is happening right now. So actually alot of my 'bodily' experience' is just mind activity.

Close your eyes, and scan through the body. Look for every sensation that is present right now. You will find, that as you scan the body, a mental image ‘shows’ the location of attention, so to speak.

If you look very carefully, you’ll find that there are some parts where the sensations are really strong, but there are other areas where there is hardly any sensation going on, or even nothing. So even the sensations what are labelled as ‘body’ cannot be experienced as a whole. I mean you cannot feel all ‘parts’ of the body at the same time. But the ‘mind’ constructs a mental image and with the label ‘body’, and the belief that the body is a whole unit, always present, always available. But this cannot be further from the truth. Body as such exists only as a construct.
Can you see this?

Vivien

[Rachszk]

Hi

.
‘Hand’ as such cannot be found, other than a label. Since in actual experience there is only sensation, mental image, visual image, and the label. But no hand as such. Can you see this?

Yes that makes sense.

.
If you look very carefully, you’ll find that there are some parts where the sensations are really strong, but there are other areas where there is hardly any sensation going on, or even nothing. So even the sensations what are labelled as ‘body’ cannot be experienced as a whole. I mean you cannot feel all ‘parts’ of the body at the same time. But the ‘mind’ constructs a mental image and with the label ‘body’, and the belief that the body is a whole unit, always present, always available. But this cannot be further from the truth. Body as such exists only as a construct.
Can you see this?

Again yes this is clear when I close my eyes and focus directly on sensations. There are areas I can feel or sense, and some I cannot. It's not possible to feel all of my body.

. . But the ‘mind’ constructs a mental image and with the label ‘body’, and the belief that the body is a whole unit, always present, always available. Body as such exists only as a construct.

In reality , a body exists because I can see a body, if I look in the mirror or I can look at other people's bodies, so bodies are actual physical mmanifestations, like cups, bricks, dogs etc.. But in actual experience, we only experience sensations, these sensations swap and change according to where attention is placed. There are always areas of the body that we are unaware of, but our mind creates mental images and narratives about the experiencee, it sort of fills in the blanks, to help navigate the body and make sense of what is happening.

Yes I can see this, but it still feels very intellectual so I think ill have to keep looking until I feel like it's clicked.

Cheers Rachel

Thanks Rachel

[Vivien]

Hi Rachel,

In reality , a body exists because I can see a body, if I look in the mirror or I can look at other people's bodies, so bodies are actual physical mmanifestations, like cups, bricks, dogs etc..

We will examine you above comment later, if that is really the case.
But for now let’s see if there is a connection between a visual image and sensations.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand).
But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

You can repeat the exercise with all of body parts. For the head you can use a mirror.

Vivien

[Rachszk]

Hi,

. But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

No I never thought there was a link between sensation and sight. I cant see the bottom of my feet but I can feel sensations on my soles when I walk. So if I'm understanding this correctly there is no connection between sensation and sight. I did the exercise with my hand still but this is pretty clear to me.

Thanks Rachel

[Vivien]

Hi Rachel,

No I never thought there was a link between sensation and sight. I cant see the bottom of my feet but I can feel sensations on my soles when I walk.

All right. So it’s clear that the sensation is not originated from the sight.
And is this similarly clear that if there is a mental image of body showing the location of a sensation, that image is not a ‘reliable source of information’ about sensation?

Do sensations have any locations?

I cant see the bottom of my feet but I can feel sensations on my soles when I walk.

So then how do you know that that those sensations are ‘the soles of the feet’?

Let’s examine the solidity of the head.

Please IGNORE all thoughts and images of ‘head’ and ‘fingers’ and just answer from actual experience. Close your eyes and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and keeping your eyes closed...

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the two pressure points, or are there just thoughts or images ABOUT something being in between them?

Without thought or mental image, how big is the head?
Without thought or mental image, does it have an inside or an outside?
Without thought or mental image, does it have a location?

Vivien

[Rachszk]

.And is this similarly clear that if there is a mental image of body showing the location of a sensation, that image is not a ‘reliable source of information’ about sensation?

Hi,

Not sure I fully understand. But image is an image in the mind. It is not the actual sensation or area where sensations are occurring. An image arises if attention is placed on a sensation. So if I'm walking and my feet are pressing on the ground, then attention to this creates an image of a foot and where the sensation is happening on the foot.

Do sensations have any locations?.

I'm not sure. I've tried to look. But my mind says this sensation is happening on the bottom of your foot, your heel or your toe. But the sensation itself is not knowledge of location .

.Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head?

Just a sensation, my mind says head, finger, pressure, but ae is sensation only.

. Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the two pressure points, or are there just thoughts or images ABOUT something being in between them?

Yes I think I am starting to see this. There is actually no experience of a head. Just my mind creating a picture of my head And the sensations.

. Without thought or mental image, how big is the head?
Without thought or mental image, does it have an inside or an outside?
Without thought or mental image, does it have a location?

I don't know how big the head is. Does it have inside/outside? Yes I can feel the cold air on parts of my face this is the outside. Does it have a location? You ask me to look without thought or mental image. Do you mean to look as if I didn't understand the words inside/outside and location? Because I'm finding these exercises difficult. I know my body has an inside and an outside and I know where my head is located. Experience and learning have taught my brain to understand if pain is coming from the inside of the body or outside. My head is located at the top of the body. I just can't seperate thinking or knowledge from the experience of my body, not to the degree where I can say I don't know inside or outside.

I can understand that sensation and mental images are not the same. and I can understand that actual experience gives me no information at all other than sensations. My mind tells me what and where I am feeling the sensation. If I did not have a mindd/past experience/or sight I wouldn't know anything about this body other than sensations.

Just not getting it sorry :(.

Thanks Rachel

[Vivien]

Hi Rachel,

Just not getting it sorry :(.

No worries. It will be clear sooner than you might expect. You’re very close. You’re doing very well.

I can understand that sensation and mental images are not the same. and I can understand that actual experience gives me no information at all other than sensations. My mind tells me what and where I am feeling the sensation. If I did not have a mindd/past experience/or sight I wouldn't know anything about this body other than sensations.

“I can understand…” – when you use the word ‘understand’ do you mean that you can see this experientially or you just understand it intellectually?

But image is an image in the mind. It is not the actual sensation or area where sensations are occurring. An image arises if attention is placed on a sensation. So if I'm walking and my feet are pressing on the ground, then attention to this creates an image of a foot and where the sensation is happening on the foot.

Yes. So the only way you know that the sensation is coming from the foot is because there is a mental image showing a foot. But actually, going along only with the sensation, it’s location cannot be known.

The reason why we do these exercises is to see how much of our experience is distorted by thoughts and mental images. In reality, the sensations have no locations at all. But we believe they have, since thoughts and mental images show a location. So they create a conceptual overlay on the actual reality. And from there, we cannot see what is really actually happening, since we see everything through this conceptual overlay. Can you see this?

So the purpose of these exercises to notice that there is a conceptual overlay, which is not the actual reality itself. They distort and colour or perception. And the aim of these exercise is not to stop these overlays from appearing, but rather to see them for what they really are.

Yes I think I am starting to see this. There is actually no experience of a head. Just my mind creating a picture of my head And the sensations.

Exactly! This is what I am pointing at.

Does it have inside/outside? Yes I can feel the cold air on parts of my face this is the outside. Does it have a location? You ask me to look without thought or mental image. Do you mean to look as if I didn't understand the words inside/outside and location? Because I'm finding these exercises difficult.

It’s not just about the words of inside and outside. Not just the words create these illusion, but the mental images too.

I Does it have inside/outside? Yes, I can feel the cold air on parts of my face this is the outside.

What you describe is the overlay what I am talking about. In actual experience there is no such thing as inside or outside of the body.

What is the actual experience of ‘cold air’? Isn’t it just a sensation?
And only thoughts say and mental images show that these sensations are or made by the ‘cold air’?


So what is actually is experienced is the skin being cold, but air as such cannot be experience.
But even this is not true. Since in actual experience there are no two sensations, one for the ‘skin’ and another for the ‘cold’. There is only one sensation, and only thought compare this current sensation with a previous sensation with a conclusion that the current sensation is cooler, so it’s caused by the cold air. Can you see this?

You say there is inside and outside of the body. Let’s ignore for a while all learned intellectual knowledge of the inside of the body.

Choose a sensation which is supposed to be inside the body. Like the sensations of the hands.
Then choose another sensation which is supposed to be outside of the body, like the surface of the skin on the same hand.
Now, alternate the attention between the two sensations. The ‘inside’ of the hand, and the ‘outside’ of the hand.

Compare the two sensations. Is there any difference between those two sensations?
If you completely ignore all thoughts and images, how is it known that one sensation is inside and the other is outside?
Can you even find a border between those sensations?
Can you find where the inside sensation stops and the outside sensations starts?
Can you even locate two distinct sensations?

Vivien