Jens freedom

[Jenisfree]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand intellectually that there is no separate entity of "me". Upon actually seeing this I will be free of the illusion of being run by my emotions, thoughts and will know and be Experience. I understand this does not mean I "disappear" or really do anything different other than be at peace because I am no longer attached to an identity.

What are you looking for at LU?
To be free of being run by my own and other people's perceived emotions and be free to experience Life with no attachments and no aversions, no self. To be living from honesty without fear to just be. To be oneness with the flow of life. To live only right now, from this moment with no attachments to past or future. To remove the blocks to love's awareness and presence, which is that which truly is. I want to be that which I truly am so that I can help others to find this as well. I want to free my heart from its perceived bondage so that I can be the Love/Life that I am part of.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To work with and be guided by one who already has what I want to attain. Assistance with getting past the remaining obstacles that keep me stuck in fear. To be asked questions that I have not been able to ask myself that help me move me into a place of no-self. I expect that the guide will know what questions to ask me from experience and can be a pointer for me. I have had many pointers but not a living one who can help with the right questions to help me find my way through the Gate.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
It's been mostly through reading. I started reading A Course in Miracles in 1993, which has been a great help in seeing past the illusion intellectually. I have shelves of spiritual books from Buddhist traditions, Yoga, Meditation, etc. I've taken a couple of classes in spirituality at a local health and wellness center. Other most helpful readings have been Sri Ramana Maharshi, "Who Am I", The Work by Byron Katie, Peace Pilgrim and listening to many different you tube videos by various teachers. I have found that there is a continuum of "spiritual teachers". I feel that the highest teachings I have encountered are from A Course in Miracles and Sri Ramana Maharshi. They have brought me to a place of "Trust God", which I am seeing as "Trust Life". I feel that I am right there, but need some help to take the final step.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Vivien]

Hi Jen,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self', though I can only point the way. You have to 'see' it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no such entity as a 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is essentially an extension of your own inquiry. It is 'guided' so that specific areas may be examined.
I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions and a video about the Quote function are at the top of the Gate Forum.

Vivien

[Jenisfree]

Hello Vivien,
Thank you very much for offering to be my guide; I am very pleased that you will be guiding me. I have read all of the requested links, and have reviewed the information on using the quote function. Posting daily should not be a problem. However, I will be on a sailboat starting on Wednesday the 17th of April for approximately 3 weeks. I will have complete internet access while I’m on the sailboat, and will be in the US, along the east coast of Florida. However, I may go across to the Bahamas, and then internet access could be tricky. It is hard to give an exact date as to when I would go, or even if, as it is dependent on many factors, mostly weather. I should however, still be able to access the internet even in the Bahamas, but wanted to be sure to tell you this. I am still very eager to get started, and I will be able to post daily for at least the next 10 days.

How will Life change?

It will not change; Life Is. There is ebb and flow, expansion and contraction, but this is just its nature. Movement of energy.

How will you change?

I won’t, really, because there is no “me” to change. There will be awareness, but not as a separate entity of “me”, like I have now. There may also be emotions, problems, things to deal with but no attachment to any of it, or sense that they are attached to me. The only real is change is that I will know this from experience, not just intellectually. But even this is too many words with using “I”. There will be no I/me.

What will be different?

There will be no more identity with an “I”, just infinite existence. There will be freedom; there is a temptation to say “I” will be free. There won’t even be the temptation of an I. Too many words here already.

What is missing?

Trust and honesty are missing. I am scared to death of seeing/of going through the Gate. I have a lot of fear that is keeping me stuck. I am scared to death of losing my identity. I want to trust but don’t know how to do it. Also honesty with myself is missing. If I am really honest, I can say that I am also scared to see because I am afraid I will be “hurting” others, or “letting other people down”. I am afraid that if I go through the Gate that my whole world will turn upside down, and everything will unravel. This scares the living crap out of me. Right now my life is “very nice and comfortable”. I have the feeling that this could be throwing a major monkey wrench into my life as I know it. And, sure, maybe this is exactly what needs to happen. I’m afraid of the unknown, but I feel that I know too much now not to continue. Also courage is missing. I have been lacking courage all these years to really look.
It's morning and there is more missing-focus. I have not been focusing. I will find a thousand reasons to not focus on this. I let other people “run” my life. I am working on all of these emotional issues as well right now, actually with a counselor who was recommended to me by someone who has gone through LU. I’m afraid all of this honesty is making me look unready for this. Did I blow it? Somehow you knew I thought I would be being judged. This last question is making me look hard at me, or what I think is me.
that is getting in the way. I hate being stuck in this same spin of energy. It’s so easy to fall back into the same old crap.
Thank you, Vivien.

[Vivien]

Hi Jen,

How can I call you? Is Jen OK, or would you prefer something else?

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But awakening cannot be found in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

I will be on a sailboat starting… I should however, still be able to access the internet even in the Bahamas, but wanted to be sure to tell you this.

Thank you for letting me know.

There will be awareness, but not as a separate entity of “me”, like I have now.

“there won’t be a separate entity of ‘me’” – this separate entity is not there in this moment either. It’s not just won’t be there in the future after seeing through the illusion of the self, but it’s not present in this moment either. It has never been present. The illusion of it might be there, but no reality behind it.

There may also be emotions, problems, things to deal with but no attachment to any of it, or sense that they are attached to me.

After seeing through the self, attachment still can arise out of habit, out of conditioning. But after looking at it, it can be seen that there is no self behind it, doing it.

“or no sense that they are attached to me” – emotions or problems are not attached to anything. Not even to the illusion of self. Emotions and problems have no power to be able to attach to anything. Rather, thoughts may produce attachment to emotions and problems on behalf of the self. After seeing through the self, these thoughts about attachment can still arise. But upon looking, their grasp can lessen or even wannish.

There will be no more identity with an “I”, just infinite existence.
There won’t even be the temptation of an I.

There are lots of misunderstanding about awakening out there. What you described here, is the final stage (fourth stage) of awakening. In Buddhist terms, it’s the stage of Arahantship, when no more identification or clinging to the self ever happens, and the inner peace cannot be disturbed by anything, no matter what happens. But even with this stage the so called ‘negative’ emotions (like grief, sadness) might arise, but without any attachment, clinging to them, and without any suffering.

In Buddhism, they describe the process of awakening in four stages. Awakening starts with ‘stream entry’. This is the first step in awakening. It’s about seeing through the illusion of the self. This might bring some or lots of relief, and lessening of suffering, but the sense of self after stream entry still can arise (and arises in most cases). But there is a difference between the ‘sense of self’ and believing in the inherent existence of a self. Seeing that the self is just an illusion cannot be taken away. But moments of ‘delusion’ still happen, but after further looking it’s easy to see that there is no self to cling to.

I am scared to death of losing my identity.

Thank you for your honesty. I really appreciate it. It’s normal to have fears, everybody has.
“losing my identity” – this implies that there are two you-s. Two selves. The one, who could lose, and the identity itself. All there is to the self, is the identity. Identity consists of a long list, that I’m this or that (female, nice, ugly, etc). The belief of the collection of this list creates the illusion of a separate self.

So with stream entry the list of identity won’t wannish, but it won’t be taken so seriously. But the ‘sense of self’ still arise mainly as a bodily feeling/sensation.

I am also scared to see because I am afraid I will be “hurting” others, or “letting other people down”.

How could you hurt others by this? Those who gone through the gate, they usually regarded as ‘more pleasant people’ by others, since they are less likely to be triggered and therefore less reactions come from their wounded, neurotic selves.

I am afraid that if I go through the Gate that my whole world will turn upside down, and everything will unravel.

This might or might not happen. For most people, it’s not that dramatic, since we are talking about the first step of awakening and not about a full awakening. That would come gradually and not even everybody gets there.
So really, there is nothing to be afraid of. There is a high chance that after the first glimpse it will be a gradual transition as for many.

I have not been focusing. I will find a thousand reasons to not focus on this.

In order to see through the self, you have to focus. At least while doing the exercise I’ll give to you. It’s essential.

I am working on all of these emotional issues as well right now, actually with a counsellor

It’s very good that you have a councellor. Usually, after seeing through the self, it’s easier to deal with emotional stuff since there is less resistance and clinging to them.

So, what we are going to do is that I’ll give you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this direct experience, or the uninterpreted moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before the mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These exercises can help to see what is ‘real’ and what is not.

But before starting, please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?

So, the first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel, etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?

I will write all questions in blue, please always answer ALL of them. These questions are pointers where to LOOK. Of course, you can also reply to any other parts of my posts if you feel need to.

Vivien

[Jenisfree]

How can I call you? Is Jen OK, or would you prefer something else?

Hi Vivien. Yes, Jen is fine. You’ve asked about resistance to the expectations and I believe I am understanding what you mean by this, with regard to how you responded to my initial answers, so I will go with that in my responses here.
First, yes, there is tons of resistance, so I will address this here below, relative to your comments about the expectations. I see it first off in my response about being on a sailboat (focusing on future and not present-there’s an element of “worry” here), and even in how I always have to “qualify” what I say, (as in above about not being 100 percent sure “I’m “doing this right).

this separate entity is not there in this moment either. It’s not just won’t be there in the future after seeing through the illusion of the self, but it’s not present in this moment either. It has never been present. The illusion of it might be there, but no reality behind it.

There is intellectual understanding of this, but the organism that I experience as my body/mind wants to create a thousand constructs to take my focus from this moment to; either future things I need to do (for the body, for others, plans, etc), or memories of past. You can see I still resist that there is no self to be present either, because I want to say I lose my focus in this moment.

After seeing through the self, attachment still can arise out of habit, out of conditioning. But after looking at it, it can be seen that there is no self behind it, doing it.

emotions or problems are not attached to anything. Not even to the illusion of self. Emotions and problems have no power to be able to attach to anything. Rather, thoughts may produce attachment to emotions and problems on behalf of the self. After seeing through the self, these thoughts about attachment can still arise. But upon looking, their grasp can lessen or even wannish.

Emotions and problems having no power to be able to attach to anything is liberation to me. My resistance comes in because I forget to look at them and see their nothingness. I forget to see them as nothing, and thus keep the illusion of the self/ego rolling. Control is also the resistance here. I want to control the perceived emotions and problems and fix them.

There are lots of misunderstanding about awakening out there. What you described here, is the final stage (fourth stage) of awakening. In Buddhist terms, it’s the stage of Arahantship, when no more identification or clinging to the self ever happens, and the inner peace cannot be disturbed by anything, no matter what happens. But even with this stage the so called ‘negative’ emotions (like grief, sadness) might arise, but without any attachment, clinging to them, and without any suffering.

My resistance to this is impatience. I want to run before I can walk; skip to the End. I want to be at the end of the process before doing the work. Now I am working on looking at the negative emotions that I cling to with the counselor that keep me stuck. I need to not resist the work. There is fear to do the work because of what it might reveal about the “me”

So with stream entry the list of identity won’t wannish, but it won’t be taken so seriously. But the ‘sense of self’ still arise mainly as a bodily feeling/sensation.

My resistance here is when I forget to laugh at it; I take it too seriously and the delusion gets thicker and thicker. I’ll get headaches, feel “fat” even though I am not overweight and the thoughts of past/present enter in.

How could you hurt others by this? Those who gone through the gate, they usually regarded as ‘more pleasant people’ by others, since they are less likely to be triggered and therefore less reactions come from their wounded, neurotic selves.

This is a big area of resistance. The resistance here is around my unhealthy and false attachments to people – it’s the emotions around unhealthy relationships that I have been in and am in currently that I need to see through/release. I have fears about what detaching from these will look like. Again, here we go with the fear of the future, like I’m “abandoning” people to become free. The counselor is helping much with this.

In order to see through the self, you have to focus. At least while doing the exercise I’ll give to you. It’s essential.

This resistance is dropping dramatically. Since I started this process with you my focus has improved hugely. In fact, I thought about the questions and the answers all day yesterday and was anticipating the next email to continue. Also, I see that I can participate in all of life “doing” all the stuff I have to do while focusing my mind on seeing through the self. I am seeing it all as a classroom. In fact, that is what a lot of my resistance has been about – thinking I have to “go off and meditate”, or be in a “quiet place” to see.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

Yes, the I believes this. But also believes that it could be different.

What does the word 'I' point to?

The bundle of cells, the organism with a mind/body that is called “Jen”. The construct of Jen. It’s an idea of a me. The more I look the less I find “it”. I points to consciousness/awareness of “ Jen”.

What makes this body ‘yours’?

A “fence” around certain physical features; feeling of breath moving in/out. Feeling feet on the floor, eyes looking at a computer screen on the wall in the kitchen. An itch. Desire to drink and taste my coffee. The perceived amount of time this body has been on perceived earth. My mind wants to attach these sensations all these experiences to “my body”.

What makes this body ‘you’?

The mental, physical and emotional patterns that have played out as this “Jen”. My mind attaches all this stuff to a perceived “you”. It’s just ideas that make the body you (me). The attachment to these ideas of what “you” is. I can’t find “you”.

Vivien, thank you so much for helping me. I don't know what gratitude looks like once I have seen the self, but in this moment, I just want to say thank you.
Jen

[Vivien]

Hi Jen,

Emotions and problems having no power to be able to attach to anything is liberation to me. My resistance comes in because I forget to look at them and see their nothingness. I forget to see them as nothing, and thus keep the illusion of the self/ego rolling. Control is also the resistance here. I want to control the perceived emotions and problems and fix them.

We will investigate how control and decision making happens. If it’s needed, we can look at how to investigate emotions later on too.

Now I am working on looking at the negative emotions that I cling to with the counselor that keep me stuck.

What I’d like to ask you is to separate the investigation of the self from the life and relationship related problems. You work on those with the councelor, and with me on the self. Here we don’t try to solve emotional problems, however, we can look at how to see emotions only as thoughts and sensations later on.

My resistance to this is impatience.

If you want to be freer, than you need some patience and diligence. What I mean by diligence is that doing the exercises day by day, paying attention of your experience during day (as you already doing it now), and sticking with the investigation as long as it takes. I have a tendency to guide a bit further than seeing no-self, and have a bit more realization on other aspects as well. But I can only guide you, you are the one who has to do the work and stick with it. But if you stick with it as long as it takes, you cannot ‘fail’. ‘Failing’ only comes from giving up.

My resistance here is when I forget to laugh at it; I take it too seriously and the delusion gets thicker and thicker. I’ll get headaches, feel “fat” even though I am not overweight and the thoughts of past/present enter in.

You’re describing here an everyday human experience. This is how it goes for almost all humans. :)

In fact, that is what a lot of my resistance has been about – thinking I have to “go off and meditate”, or be in a “quiet place” to see.

You don’t have to go off at all, actually it’s quite useful if you can observe the given exercises while doing mundane tasks, like doing the dishes, driving, showering, walking, etc. However, most exercises will require some quite time, 10-30 minutes per day, when you only focus on the given tasks. But those will be interesting to do so. So there is nothing to worry about.
f

eeling of breath moving in/out. Feeling feet on the floor, eyes looking at a computer screen on the wall in the kitchen. An itch. Desire to drink and taste my coffee. The perceived amount of time this body has been on perceived earth. My mind wants to attach these sensations all these experiences to “my body”.

OK. There is breath moving in/out.
There is a feeling feet of the floor.
There are eyes looking at the screen.
There is an itch.
There is a desire to drink and taste coffee.
There is a perceived amount of time.

The question is, is there an entity doing and perceiving all of these? Or these things just happen?
You might cannot see this clearly now, that’s all right. That’s what will investigate in great detail in the future.
(Patience :)

So now, we try to find the ‘owner’ of the body.
We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.

What I want you to do for our examination together, is to try to separate out thoughts from what is ‘real’.

But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.
We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.
In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
Do you see a seer?
Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?

Vivien, thank you so much for helping me. I don't know what gratitude looks like once I have seen the self, but in this moment, I just want to say thank you.

You’re very welcome

Vivien

[Jenisfree]

Good day, Vivien,

We will investigate how control and decision making happens. If it’s needed, we can look at how to investigate emotions later on too.

What I’d like to ask you is to separate the investigation of the self from the life and relationship related problems. You work on those with the councelor, and with me on the self. Here we don’t try to solve emotional problems, however, we can look at how to see emotions only as thoughts and sensations later on.

Understood, and thank you. My focus with you from hereafter will only be on the investigation of the self.

If you want to be freer, than you need some patience and diligence. What I mean by diligence is that doing the exercises day by day, paying attention of your experience during day (as you already doing it now), and sticking with the investigation as long as it takes. I have a tendency to guide a bit further than seeing no-self, and have a bit more realization on other aspects as well. But I can only guide you, you are the one who has to do the work and stick with it. But if you stick with it as long as it takes, you cannot ‘fail’. ‘Failing’ only comes from giving up.

I am 100% committed and will be focused on this process for as long as it takes. Thank you for supporting me in this. I will not give up or quit.

OK. There is breath moving in/out.
There is a feeling feet of the floor.
There are eyes looking at the screen.
There is an itch.
There is a desire to drink and taste coffee.
There is a perceived amount of time.

The question is, is there an entity doing and perceiving all of these? Or these things just happen?
You might cannot see this clearly now, that’s all right. That’s what will investigate in great detail in the future.
(Patience :)

Ok so here is the honest answer. Yes, mostly I perceive it as “me” doing stuff, the “entity”. I still sense there is a doer, but not always that “ I” am the doer/experiencer. I want to give an intellectual interpretation of this, but I know that I cannot BS you. Sometimes I feel a lot less attached to outcomes of the “doing”, and sometimes I too get a sense of, “hey, this is kind of just happening” as I do things, everyday things without really thinking about them at all. They sort of just “happen”, but I’ve never really considered the “how”. Until now, that is. It feels like something much bigger than me is orchestrating it all, but again, not separate from “me”. It’s not the perceived little ‘‘me” making any of this happen like it is.

More this morning: It is possible that this is all happening by itself…? There is nothing controlling any of this? I put questions marks because I believe I am seeing this but not sure I am seeing this. If I put the focus on NOW and plan nothing, think ahead to nothing, I move to action, but am not sure how/what is deciding what I should do. For example, It doesn’t feel like I’m thinking the thought “now I m going to heat up my coffee”. It sort of just happens, when I stay in the moment of NOW. It’s all random yet totally in order. How can that be?

What I want you to do for our examination together, is to try to separate out thoughts from what is ‘real’.

Because you put “real” in quotes it feels like you are pointing to nothing is real. Because there is nothing that I can identify, or prove, at least that I now see, that is 100% real. Nothing. Even the “solid stuff” that I can see, feel , taste, smell, see, it’s only this concept of “me” or “I” that witnesses them in the way I witness them. It’s all one big fat dream, maybe. I think I’m dreaming it, but perhaps I am being dreamed? I’m anticipating you asking me “what is the thing doing the dreaming?” I don’t know. There are a lot of "I"s here, but not sure how else to convey this!

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

It is in my head, as a belief. It’s not possible. There is not, nor was there ever a separate “I”. I is a belief. A belief cannot be found. It is just a thought, the idea of I. But this belief is still there, still clung to. In my head. But I don’t know what is doing the believing. Oh, just now I think I see that nothing is doing the believing.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?

There is nothing to be found because it is here already. I don’t know how to find words to describe it. You say that to prove its existence we must experience it directly with seeing, touching, smelling, tasting, feeling, hearing. “It” is already all of those things. It is everything. IT IS seeing, feeling, tasting, touching, hearing. I got a glimpse of this yesterday while driving in my car; an overwhelming experience of oneness with every single thing around me, in my vision, looking up at the trees, the other cars, the other people the buildings, the birds, EVERYTHING in my range of sight I felt was one and “I” was part of it, but with no separation. It was a feeling of intense elation and tears of joy. This lasted for a couple minutes but then diminished. The “what” that sees them is the “what” that sees everything, IS everything.

OK it’s later this morning and I’m back here again on this same question. With regard to my above answer “it was a feeling of intense elation” I see is pleasant, but still is not seeing the self completely, only a glimpse? (sigh) I don’t know how to get past this.

Code: Select all

Do you see a seer?

I am not sure but I am starting to believe that everything is the Seer. I am seeing expressions of “It”, the seer everywhere. Everything I see is “it”. For that matter everything I see, touch, taste, smell, hear, feel is It. This body/mind of Jen, this expression is all of it too, but not separated from all of It; is part of It. This can be at the height of awareness and experienced briefly, but then it fades again. Feels like waking up a little bit then going back to sleep.

Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?

No it cannot be located because it is everywhere. The “thing” is Everything, but it cannot be found or tracked down to one separate thing. Finding a thing would imply separation. This expression of life called Jen can “see” this but there is no experience of BEING Everything all the time. But there have been very brief glimpses, like when driving the car, of being all of the Thing. I say all this with conviction, but I think where I am is that the belief of this is just developing. It feels like the right track but I am not sure. Can you tell me please? Do you have to believe this before it can be Known?

Thank you Vivien! Looking forward to your response.
Jen

[Vivien]

Hi Jen,

It is possible that this is all happening by itself…? There is nothing controlling any of this?

This is what you have to find out for yourself. From now on, you can pay attention to any mundane activity you do during the day. For example, when doing the dishes, you can observer how the hands move and whether there is a decision being made with each and every little movement. Or when showering, towelling, brushing, dressing, driving, etc.

It is in my head, as a belief. It’s not possible. There is not, nor was there ever a separate “I”. I is a belief. A belief cannot be found. It is just a thought, the idea of I. But this belief is still there, still clung to. In my head.

It’s not clear for me that when you say ‘the self is just a belief’, whether it’s coming from seeing or rather from intellectual understanding. So for the effectiveness of our conversation, I’d like to ask you to write only from the actual experience, and put aside all intellectual understanding.

I got a glimpse of this yesterday while driving in my car; an overwhelming experience of oneness with every single thing around me, in my vision, looking up at the trees, the other cars, the other people the buildings, the birds, EVERYTHING in my range of sight I felt was one and “I” was part of it, but with no separation. It was a feeling of intense elation and tears of joy. This lasted for a couple minutes but then diminished. The “what” that sees them is the “what” that sees everything, IS everything.

OK. This was probably a peak experience, which can come and go. We’re not after having certain experiences over others (although they can happen), but rather clearly seeing the fiction of the self. It does not involve having any special experiences, but rather a deep knowing which coming from seeing it clearly. It’s important to not attach these kind of peak experiences, because they are impermanent. And although they can be pleasant, they are coming and going.

but still is not seeing the self completely, only a glimpse? (sigh) I don’t know how to get past this.

It seems to me that you are too hard on yourself, but correct me if I’m wrong. We’ve just started the investigations, and it seems there is a judgment coming up of ‘not getting it’. Please be patient and gentle on yourself, we have enough time :)

Feels like waking up a little bit then going back to sleep.

Yes, this is how it feels sometimes.

This expression of life called Jen can “see” this but there is no experience of BEING Everything all the time.

The experience of ‘being everything all the time', is just an experience. We are not after impermanent experiences. Rather we are after seeing the self from a different point of view, so to speak. But these experiences certainly can happen, and even be useful, but only to the extend if we don’t cling to them.

I think where I am is that the belief of this is just developing. It feels like the right track but I am not sure. Can you tell me please? Do you have to believe this before it can be Known?

Yes, you’re on the right track. But as I said, we have plenty of time and lots of areas of investigate, so no worries. :)

The whole illusion is created by thoughts. So therefore, we will investigate thoughts and thought labels thoroughly.
So then let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Please go through these questions and answer ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Try to answer them only from direct experience, and leave aside all intellectual interpretation or understanding. Take your time.

Vivien

[Jenisfree]

Good morning, Vivien,
Thank you for yesterday's response to my answers. Yes, I am hard on myself; I think I may be lightening up though! I understand what you are saying about the peak experiences; I've been getting quite a few, but realize this is not the aim, nor should it be a focus. I think my answers below are coming from both direct experience and intellectual understanding, but am not sure. They came to me without much struggle or intense contemplation; it felt kind of like, I just "know" this. Not sure if that points to anything. Anyway, here they are, and thank you again for your support! :)

Where do thoughts come from?

Thoughts are part of the greater whole or Oneness/Energy/Life.

Where are they going?

They might be attracted to certain “places”, due to like qualities of energy, but it might be random too.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

“I” cannot stop a thought in the middle because “I” doesn’t exist and you can’t stop the movement of Life.Plus I don't think thoughts have a beginning, middle or end. The thought can be ignored, rejected, or accepted by the perceived “I”, but this is too all just movement of energy.

Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?

No, “I” cannot predict what thought will be next, but “I” can attract certain qualities of thought more so than others (denser vs. lighter energy).

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

“I” can elect to not “entertain” negative thoughts. If “I” continues to attract by way of similar energy similar thoughts, then perhaps “negative or painful” ones will become less, although they are random and part of the energy flow, thus unpredictable.

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

No, because “I” is an illusion of a portal of perception of energy/thoughts.

“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?

As I said above, “I” is an illusion of a portal within the greater field of energy which thinks it thinks.

What is the thinker of thoughts?

Everything. All existence/consciousness.

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

It’s perceived as “you”/”me” but not found, because these are all illusion.

Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Yes

Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?

“I” am being thought; thoughts are being thought.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

It’s not possible to prevent a thought as long as “I” am identified with the I. I think when the I is seen through/known not to exist, then perhaps no thought is the awareness/conciousness but I am not sure.

Thank you Vivien! I look forward to your response.
Jen

[Vivien]

HI Jen,

I think my answers below are coming from both direct experience and intellectual understanding, but am not sure.

Actually, your answers mainly came from an intellectual interpretation rather than from actual experience. What do I mean by that? Actual experience is the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling/toughing) + thought. You might say that these answers came from thought. And yes, they came from thoughts, as the CONTENT of thoughts.

But there is a huge difference between:
- the CONTENT of a thought, what is a thought ABOUT
- and only seeing the thought itself, as a ‘CONTAINER’.

When a thought is seen only as a container, and the content of a thought (what it’s about) is being ignored, is what we call the actual experience of a thought. Do you see the difference?

So, we can say, that in actual experience, the arising of a thought (the container) is real, but what it’s ABOUT, the content, is not. The thought (as container) is there in reality, but the content of a thought is only fictionary, it’s not there. Do you see the difference?
(At this stage it’s OK, if you see it only intellectually. You’ll do exercises to see this clearly.)

They came to me without much struggle or intense contemplation; it felt kind of like, I just "know" this.

Yes, the thoughts came, and you wrote down the CONTENT of the thoughts. These thoughts were present (and real) as thoughts (container), but what they were talking about (the content) is just a theory.

Vivien: Where do thoughts come from?

Jen: Thoughts are part of the greater whole or Oneness/Energy/Life.

Vivien: Where are they going?

Jen: They might be attracted to certain “places”, due to like qualities of energy, but it might be random too.

These answers are not coming from direct looking, not from direct experience. Rather these thoughts appeared and you wrote down their content. This is an intellectual reasoning or interpretation that what might have been going on.
Because, such thing as ‘greater whole’, ‘oneness’, ‘energy’, ‘life’, are just mental labels on the actual experience.

“I” cannot stop a thought in the middle because “I” doesn’t exist

“because ‘I’ doesn’t exist” – is this coming from actually seeing that the ‘I’ doesn’t exists, or rather from a learned knowledge?

So, how do we write answers from actual experience and not only what thoughts say? First, we have to LOOK what is PRIOR TO THOUGHTS, then you describe the experience with the help of words.
If we look what is prior to thoughts, we can see how thoughts arise. How the container itself arise, and then we can see the difference between the container and the content.

We spent almost our whole life being lost in the content of thoughts, in fairy tales. ‘Reality’ is BEFORE thoughts. If you’d like to find out what are you, or rather say find out what you are not, you have to abandon trusting and paying attention to thoughts (what thoughts about, what they say).

Thoughts as arising thoughts are ‘real’, but their contents (what they are ABOUT) are not. Like when you think about Dart Vader. There is an arising thought, it cannot be denied, but its content “Dart Vader” is not real. Sometimes thoughts point to something tangible, like chair, however a thought about a chair is not a chair. A thought about a chair is just a mental concept with an arising mental image of a ‘chair’ but that image is not ‘real’. However, as an arising image is there, it is ‘real’, but not its content (what it’s about).

Certain sensations can be felt in the body that is labelled such and such emotion, like ‘cheerful’. However, ‘cheerful’ is just a mental label on the felt sensation. So the felt sensation is ‘real’, the arising mental label, simply as arising label is ‘real’, but its content ‘cheerful’ is just an idea. Can you see this?

Here is a little exercise.
Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin. Hold it there, sensing it. Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?

Was there an appearing mental image?
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the watermelon) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies.
Can you see this clearly?

Vivien

[Jenisfree]

Hello Vivien,

When a thought is seen only as a container, and the content of a thought (what it’s about) is being ignored, is what we call the actual experience of a thought. Do you see the difference?

Yes, and I think the example of looking at a movie screen (the screen is “real”) and seeing a film or story played out on it (fiction) might be an analogy, if I am following you correctly. The action, the story, the people on the screen are make-believe/are not real, but the screen they are projected on is “real”

“because ‘I’ doesn’t exist” – is this coming from actually seeing that the ‘I’ doesn’t exists, or rather from a learned knowledge?

Pretty sure mostly learned knowledge, but if actual seeing is something that can morph gradually, rather than a sudden “aha”, then I think I am “seeing” more. I’ve heard it said that “once it is seen it can never be unseen”, and I am definitely not there.

Certain sensations can be felt in the body that is labelled such and such emotion, like ‘cheerful’. However, ‘cheerful’ is just a mental label on the felt sensation. So the felt sensation is ‘real’, the arising mental label, simply as arising label is ‘real’, but its content ‘cheerful’ is just an idea. Can you see this?

Yes, and I am starting to see that seeing has something to do with the present moment, I think.

Here is a little exercise.
Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin. Hold it there, sensing it. Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?

It’s gone.

How about the sensation that was so believable?

It’s gone too.

Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?

No, because it was an idea of a melon. The melon, although a thought, was not tangible., so was never real.

Was there an appearing mental image?

Yes

Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?

No.

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the watermelon) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies.
Can you see this clearly?

Yes, I can see this.

I think I’m beginning to see something. And that is that whatever is being experienced in the moment is reality, in terms of what can be touched, tasted, smelled, heard and seen. My or anyone elses “labels” of those things are fantasies, or fictionary.Plus, any past memories, future worries or anticipations are fictionary as well (ideas with a certain content). This present moment IS reality to “me” (the touching, tasting, seeing, etc). All the other “me’s “ out there have their realities too. But there are really no other “me’s” because they are ideas in “my” mind, and so is the”I”.

Oh, I think I see it, I see something here. “I” is the container (my physical body which can experience touch, taste, smell, hear, feel) but the “contents” of it (my life, personality, memories, history) is fictionary-never really happened because they are all ideas of content!!

So the answer to What am I is – NOTHING.

But reality is this present moment; what is being seen, tasted, touched, heard, right here, right now, but there is no “I”that experiences this . It feels on the verge of this……

More questions are needed!

Thank you Vivien. Have a nice evening (or morning, I think).
Jen

[Vivien]

Hi Jen,

I think the example of looking at a movie screen (the screen is “real”) and seeing a film or story played out on it (fiction) might be an analogy,

Yes.

V: “because ‘I’ doesn’t exist” – is this coming from actually seeing that the ‘I’ doesn’t exists, or rather from a learned knowledge?

Jen: Pretty sure mostly learned knowledge, but if actual seeing is something that can morph gradually, rather than a sudden “aha”, then I think I am “seeing” more.

OK. I’d like to ask you to try to describe your actual experience as precisely as you can, and if it feels like that something is rather only intellectual understanding, then either leave it aside or please mention it. Since I give you my answers based on your comments, I need to be clear on what you can see clearly and what not.

I think I’m beginning to see something. And that is that whatever is being experienced in the moment is reality, in terms of what can be touched, tasted, smelled, heard and seen. My or anyone elses “labels” of those things are fantasies, or fictionary.

Yes. But the label as a label is real, it is there. But what the label suggests, what it’s about, what its content is what is ficitionary. But the label as label is real. Is this clear?

Plus, any past memories, future worries or anticipations are fictionary as well (ideas with a certain content).

Exactly. And one of the reasons why we humans suffer is because these stories about the past, future or worries are not seen only as thoughts coming and going, but rather ‘we’ are lost in their contents. We are spent almost all our waking lives lost in thoughts. We call it daydreaming. But in reality, we are watching a movie ‘in our heads’, usually something unpleasant or frightening, without knowing that it’s just a movie and not reality. We take this inner movie (stories) as reality. When a movie is going on, we believe that whatever is happening in the movie is happening to us right now. And at the same time, we mostly unaware what is really happening all around us, for example that I’m driving my car and not in my friend’s house having a disagreement (story).

From now on, you can try to observe these inner dialogs, stories going on during the day.
Pay attention how it happens. See how these thoughts and mental images trigger certain emotions and bodily sensations.
And when you wake up from the story, observe how your whole perception changes. You suddenly become aware your surroundings, you can hear sounds what you were unaware just a few moments ago, etc.
See how you feel when you wake up from a story.
Try to be aware of this as much as you can during the day, and let me know what you experienced.

This present moment IS reality to “me” (the touching, tasting, seeing, etc). All the other “me’s “ out there have their realities too. But there are really no other “me’s” because they are ideas in “my” mind, and so is the”I”.

Yes. Spot on.

Oh, I think I see it, I see something here. “I” is the container (my physical body which can experience touch, taste, smell, hear, feel) but the “contents” of it (my life, personality, memories, history) is fictionary-never really happened because they are all ideas of content!!

“I” is the container (my physical body which can experience…) – this is still an identification. This statement says that the ‘I’ is the physical body, which is the experiencer. We will examine this later.

More questions are needed!

You’ll get plenty of questions. :) Even when it seems that it’s clear, you’ll get more questions to examine all aspects of the self. We will examine all the possible hiding places.

OK. Now, as you can see and understand better what actual experience is, let’s go back to the same questions about thoughts. Please be very careful, write down only what can be known from the actual experience and not what the content of thoughts might suggest.

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Vivien

[Jenisfree]

Hi Vivien,
I believe I have answered the following from my true, direct experience. Thank you very much!

But the label as label is real. Is this clear?

Yes.

See how you feel when you wake up from a story.
Try to be aware of this as much as you can during the day, and let me know what you experienced.

Yes, I will do this. This is happening already, and especially now since you pointed this out.
.

Where do thoughts come from?

They arise.

Where are they going?

Nowhere. They just are.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

No. The arising of thoughts cannot be controlled. “Middle” implies something that is real and the content of thoughts is fiction, thus there is no middle to stop.

Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?

No, there is no way to predict what thought will arise.

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

“I” cannot choose to not have thoughts, but I can decide not to pay attention to negative ones, since as content of a thought form, they are not real. In fact, no contents of thoughts are real, even the “good” ones.

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

No, I cannot find “I”. This is my direct experience.

“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?

An idea. A fiction. A thought.

What is the thinker of thoughts?

The false “I”

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

No, this is the same as asking if the I can be found.

Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Yes

Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?

I am being thought.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

I believe it is, but I have not turned that corner yet.

Thank you very much Vivien. Have a good day, and looking forward to the next questions.
Jen

[Vivien]

Hi Jen,

You did a very nice looking. :)

V: See how you feel when you wake up from a story.
Try to be aware of this as much as you can during the day, and let me know what you experienced.

J: Yes, I will do this. This is happening already, and especially now since you pointed this out.

So, how it went? What have you noticed?

no contents of thoughts are real, even the “good” ones.

Exactly.

V: “I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?

J: An idea. A fiction. A thought.

V: What is the thinker of thoughts?

J: The false “I”

So if the ‘I’ just a thought, how can it be the thinker of thoughts?
Can a thought think?

So then, what is the thinker of thoughts?
What does generate thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

Using thinking, do you think you'll ever find anything OTHER than thoughts?

I can decide not to pay attention to negative ones

This suggests that there is some sort of a chooser or decider. We will examine this later.
--
There is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t.

Where do labels come from?
How a judgment is made?
Are judgements are true or just judgements (mental labels)?
(You can reply to the above 3 questions any way you like, not just from direct experience.)

Look at these colours with labels.

BLACK GREEN PINK
ORANGE YELLOW
BLUE BROWN GREY
TURQUOISE WHITE
PURPLE RED CYAN

Before you start looking from actual experience, look at each coloured word above one by one. Just quickly look at them, and immediately say out loud what colour you see (the first thought that comes to mind). Then check if the immediate answer was right.

What have you experienced?

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
Is red colour experienced or is green colour experienced as the label suggests it?
Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
Or the labels suggest something else than what is here and now (red colour)?
Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the red colour, or green is just a word layover of experience of the red colour?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, does the redness be affected in any way as the labels suggest it?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’ or the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

What does this exercise show about the self?

Vivien

[Jenisfree]

Hello Vivien,
Getting very busy with the boat, so could only just get to my computer now! Please know any delay in response is just due to logistics. I am still at an 11 for motivation for this, and will find a way to answer you. Thank you!

See how you feel when you wake up from a story.
Try to be aware of this as much as you can during the day, and let me know what you experienced.
So, how it went? What have you noticed?

I feel present, sort of “relieved”. I notice not caring so much, or that outcomes, etc, don’t really matter. I am much more focused on what I am experiencing in a given moment. I feel more alert to my surroundings.

So if the ‘I’ just a thought, how can it be the thinker of thoughts?

It cannot. I is just a label.

Can a thought think?

No

So then, what is the thinker of thoughts?

A label; a fiction.

What does generate thoughts?

Nothing, they arise; they just are, like breathing, seeing, hearing, touching, smelling.

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience?

no

What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

Nothing. Like nothing owns seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling.

Using thinking, do you think you'll ever find anything OTHER than thoughts?

No

Where do labels come from?

The mind of thefalse self.

How a judgment is made?

It is a mistaken belief.

Are judgements are true or just judgements (mental labels)?

They are mistaken beliefs and just mental labels because the content of all thoughts is fiction.

Before you start looking from actual experience, look at each coloured word above one by one. Just quickly look at them, and immediately say out loud what colour you see (the first thought that comes to mind). Then check if the immediate answer was right.

What have you experienced?

A delay in being able to respond, a hesitance to be sure I am choosing the “right” label.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Red

Is red colour experienced or is green colour experienced as the label suggests it?

red

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?

no

Or the labels suggest something else than what is here and now (red colour)?

Yes, it suggests what is here and now.

Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the red colour, or green is just a word layover of experience of the red colour?

Yes, a lay over

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, does the redness be affected in any way as the labels suggest it?

No

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’ or the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The labels have no effect.

What does this exercise show about the self?

It can be influenced about what reality is, and even be mistaken.