hello, namaste guides,
i watched the bat gap interview today and was guided here.
this forum sounds like i summoned it.
i am somewhat overwhealmed about how to go about "using" it,
as i have never been in any forum.
and here I am, ready to be guided :)
I understand and know non-duality as a concept fully. had one experience where the sense of "I" dissapeared for a few moments, so i can fully relate to what is said in non-duality communication. have been depressed most my life and have been searching, reading, listening watching, contemplating "who am I", doing Byron Katie's work etc.pp., for so many years.
however what i am getting is that there is a world of a difference between understanding and knowing all of this and actually experiencing "truth" or seeing the illusion. tony parsons once answered the question "how do you know you are enlighted?" after he clarified: "YOU don't" , he said:"It hits you like a bus". Lisa Cairns says:" as long as there is a belief in a seperate self, there will always be suffering". Eventhough I know there is no seperate entity here or anywhere, I am still suffering.
the analogy comes to mind of these "paintings" with lots of different colored dots, where when one looks
at them, after a while an object is supposed to be seen clearly in it. many people standing next to me could see these objects, i never managed to, no matter how long or how relaxed i looked.
but once those objects where seen it was impossible not to see them.
the seeking dynamic in me, although having lost serious momentum and i am very bored and do not know what to do with myself. I am mostly just vegging, doing time...and listening or watching satsangs. all i am truely interested in is to wake up from the spellbound of this dream-character-me into truth: in Freedom from this illusion.
whoever (red) feels drawn to guide me...i welcome you warmheartedly and look forward to our communication,
would it be possible to do this over skype? I heard Ilona mention this in the said interview.
love,
liv
who would like to guide me?
Re: who would like to guide me?
Hi Liv
Welcome to Liberation Forum! I'm happy to be your guide if you would like to work via this forum, rather than by Skype. There is a benefit to be gained from working via a daily post on this forum rather than an instant Skype conversation, particularly where you have a lot of knowledge about non-duality. The way to 'getting this' is not by accumulating any more intellectual understanding, but by focusing on the direct experience approach, which is what we do here on LU. And that requires investing time as you go about your day noticing various aspects of your direct experience that I can point you to observe.
So if you're open to looking to see no-self with me, pls let me know, or if you'd prefer to work on Skype, I'll find another guide for you.
with love
Odemira
Welcome to Liberation Forum! I'm happy to be your guide if you would like to work via this forum, rather than by Skype. There is a benefit to be gained from working via a daily post on this forum rather than an instant Skype conversation, particularly where you have a lot of knowledge about non-duality. The way to 'getting this' is not by accumulating any more intellectual understanding, but by focusing on the direct experience approach, which is what we do here on LU. And that requires investing time as you go about your day noticing various aspects of your direct experience that I can point you to observe.
So if you're open to looking to see no-self with me, pls let me know, or if you'd prefer to work on Skype, I'll find another guide for you.
with love
Odemira
Re: who would like to guide me?
thank you Odemira!
i will take your advice about the benefits of communication via written word.
I am open to seeing no-self with you.
i live by stuttgart, germany, central european time zone.
where are your whereabouts? and is odemira your real first name or your alias?
totally fine with me if you prefer to keep it anonymous too.
good night,
liv
i will take your advice about the benefits of communication via written word.
I am open to seeing no-self with you.
i live by stuttgart, germany, central european time zone.
where are your whereabouts? and is odemira your real first name or your alias?
totally fine with me if you prefer to keep it anonymous too.
good night,
liv
Re: who would like to guide me?
hello, namaste guides,
i watched the bat gap interview today and was guided here.
this forum sounds like i summoned it.
i am somewhat overwhealmed about how to go about "using" it,
as i have never been in any forum.
and here I am, ready to be guided :)
I understand and know non-duality as a concept fully. had one experience where the sense of "I" dissapeared for a few moments, so i can fully relate to what is said in non-duality communication. have been depressed most my life and have been searching, reading, listening watching, contemplating "who am I", doing Byron Katie's work etc.pp., for so many years.
however what i am getting is that there is a world of a difference between understanding and knowing all of this and actually experiencing "truth" or seeing the illusion. tony parsons once answered the question "how do you know you are enlighted?" after he clarified: "YOU don't" , he said:"It hits you like a bus". Lisa Cairns says:" as long as there is a belief in a seperate self, there will always be suffering". Eventhough I know there is no seperate entity here or anywhere, I am still suffering.
the analogy comes to mind of these "paintings" with lots of different colored dots, where when one looks
at them, after a while an object is supposed to be seen clearly in it. many people standing next to me could see these objects, i never managed to, no matter how long or how relaxed i looked.
but once those objects where seen it was impossible not to see them.
the seeking dynamic in me, although having lost serious momentum, is still present and i am very bored and do not know what to do with myself. all i am drawn to do other than care for body and do housework is listening to or watching satsangs. all i am truely interested in is to wake up from the spellbound of this dream-character-me into truth: in Freedom from this illusion.
whoever (red) feels drawn to guide me...i welcome you warmheartedly and look forward to our communication,
would it be possible to do this over skype? I heard Ilona mention this in the said interview.
love,
liv
Re: who would like to guide me?
oops sorry, I wanted to correct my grammar mistake and thought this would edit my first post. but i see now that it made a new post at the bottom of the thread instead...i am a total rookie at this.
Re: who would like to guide me?
Hi Liv,
No problem, no worries about posting twice or your grammar, it's all fine here. You might like to read the Using the Quote post at the top of the One on One page, it's very helpful for understanding how to post on the forum.
Let's get started, yes? There are a few 'rules' here which help the process of seeing through the illusion of the self work better and faster:
1. Post here at least once per day, that keeps the momentum going.
2. Be 100% honest in your replies. I want you every time to tell me what you directly experience and not what you know.
3. While we're working together, can you stop watching satsangs, reading etc? It will be a hindrance rather than a help. More knowledge is not going to help here, come with a 'beginner's mind', ok?
4. I'll ask you questions that point you where to look, please look at each in depth and then answer each one.
That's it! If you're happy to accept those, let's move on to the first questions.
1. What are you expecting it to be like when the illusion of the self has been seen through? What will happen for you?
2. Tell me all the places or ways in which you think you as a self exist, and where you already have no doubt that it does not exist. Answer this from your current experience, what you know to be true now for you, and not from what you've been taught.
3. If I say to you 'Liv, you do not exist as a separate self, you NEVER HAVE existed as a separate self', what do you notice happens in your body and mind as you hear that?
I live in the UK, and Odemira is my forum name. But you can call me Annie if you prefer.
with love
Odemira/Annie
No problem, no worries about posting twice or your grammar, it's all fine here. You might like to read the Using the Quote post at the top of the One on One page, it's very helpful for understanding how to post on the forum.
Let's get started, yes? There are a few 'rules' here which help the process of seeing through the illusion of the self work better and faster:
1. Post here at least once per day, that keeps the momentum going.
2. Be 100% honest in your replies. I want you every time to tell me what you directly experience and not what you know.
3. While we're working together, can you stop watching satsangs, reading etc? It will be a hindrance rather than a help. More knowledge is not going to help here, come with a 'beginner's mind', ok?
4. I'll ask you questions that point you where to look, please look at each in depth and then answer each one.
That's it! If you're happy to accept those, let's move on to the first questions.
1. What are you expecting it to be like when the illusion of the self has been seen through? What will happen for you?
2. Tell me all the places or ways in which you think you as a self exist, and where you already have no doubt that it does not exist. Answer this from your current experience, what you know to be true now for you, and not from what you've been taught.
3. If I say to you 'Liv, you do not exist as a separate self, you NEVER HAVE existed as a separate self', what do you notice happens in your body and mind as you hear that?
I live in the UK, and Odemira is my forum name. But you can call me Annie if you prefer.
with love
Odemira/Annie
Re: who would like to guide me?
good morning annie,
so happy to receive your post.
yes i gladly accept these rules that support the process. i am 100% comitted.
i will start with question 1. and then come back to answer the following questions at a later time.
1. what do i expect it to be like when the illusion of the self has been seen through? what do i think will happen for me?
i believe my sadness and suffering will lose ground to stand upon, it will not be able to stick anymore, because there will be a shift in perception. it feels like all the heavyness, that feels like the heavyness of the whole world will be lifted, because i will have realized the truth that there is no liv, nor is there a belief in the idea or image that i have of beloved ones or fellow humans or animals, as being someone, a seperate entity. i will see just life looking through all eyes. and i will see the filter of mind, of thoughts, beliefs, images, imaginations, the work of mind as a unique quality of climate happening in every body mind. that way nothing is personal. feelings of inadequacy, guilt, shame, victimhood, blame, hurt, anger, frustration etc. will no longer be attached to me or projected onto another but will show up as thoughts that are seen and subsequent sensations in the body, that happen like weather in climate zone. they will simply happen, naturally allowed, no resistance, fully seen for what they are. there will be no more belief in a story telling what is happening here. it feels like true freedom. there will be no more fear or anxiety, this also will surface as sesations and weather. it will be fully seen how the body simply reacts to a long repeated thought and this thought having just surfaced in the mind, which is a habit of thoughts/images being thought/imagined. the more these thoughts are naturally and instantly seen, that trigger nagative emotion, the more this habit of thinking this particular thought will seize.
there will no longer be a feeling of pride, of being good or being better than others and vice versa. when others judge me a thought and bodily sensation of being attacked might surface, but again it will be seen as for what it is, it will not be able to stick and be taken personally and simplay work its way through the body like a cloud appearing and passing in the sky.
there will be a deep sense of peace and a feeling of being home. there will be a realization that i only believed that i had lost total well being and this being at home naturally, because i am that.
all this will no longer be known intellectually but all encompassingly. it will not be that i know, i am looking through a filter of habitual thought and subconscious beliefs but the mind will be so open and will have apparently slowed down to a degree where i can actually realize it's working. i will be able to see it, as if it where a voice clearly speaking into my ear describing what is going on. this voice will be realized as my own and yet i am listening to it as if coming from an outer source. at the same time the voice will be inside me.
the image and idea that i have been having of me as long as i can remember, as liv, as my story attached to this body-mind, will dissolve and become a memory, of : this was what i was thinking for all these years.
the sense of time will change and i will always feel this is always now. i will realize how time is an impression of mind.
the movement of mind into past memory and future imagination, will naturally seize.
i will be much more present than now and increasingly more present. i will increasingly feel more alive.
as the static of mind dissipates and the mind opens and relaxes, the naturall weather of this climate zone will happen more and more. the co-system will come back to balance and through this peace and clarity the true inclinations of this body-mind will come forth. i will be inspired and will freely express what i love to do. there will be a surfacing of my true talents and i will experience great joy in experiencing them freely unfold.
through this opennes, stillness and peace it is possible that a great power might surface, that has been supressed under the static of mind and the contraction of body for a long time. but there will no longer be any attachment to whatever this body-mind does. if it should continue to do nothing and have no interest in anything in the world other than sitting on a bench and watching dragonflys play midair than this is just as well and deep satisfying joy will be seen in this as this joy is naturally what is and is not dependant on the weather or climate zone of the body mind which is but a vantage point of the perception happening.
it will be realized, seen, felt and intuitively, consciously known that what i am is not the perception but what is percieving and this cannot be anything or discribed but only experienced, known realized.
so far for question 1.
i loved answering this and i never have put it into words so clearly.
thank you annie.
now i must go and will return as soon as i can.
but i think perhaps not today as my sister is coming to visit.
so happy to receive your post.
yes i gladly accept these rules that support the process. i am 100% comitted.
i will start with question 1. and then come back to answer the following questions at a later time.
1. what do i expect it to be like when the illusion of the self has been seen through? what do i think will happen for me?
i believe my sadness and suffering will lose ground to stand upon, it will not be able to stick anymore, because there will be a shift in perception. it feels like all the heavyness, that feels like the heavyness of the whole world will be lifted, because i will have realized the truth that there is no liv, nor is there a belief in the idea or image that i have of beloved ones or fellow humans or animals, as being someone, a seperate entity. i will see just life looking through all eyes. and i will see the filter of mind, of thoughts, beliefs, images, imaginations, the work of mind as a unique quality of climate happening in every body mind. that way nothing is personal. feelings of inadequacy, guilt, shame, victimhood, blame, hurt, anger, frustration etc. will no longer be attached to me or projected onto another but will show up as thoughts that are seen and subsequent sensations in the body, that happen like weather in climate zone. they will simply happen, naturally allowed, no resistance, fully seen for what they are. there will be no more belief in a story telling what is happening here. it feels like true freedom. there will be no more fear or anxiety, this also will surface as sesations and weather. it will be fully seen how the body simply reacts to a long repeated thought and this thought having just surfaced in the mind, which is a habit of thoughts/images being thought/imagined. the more these thoughts are naturally and instantly seen, that trigger nagative emotion, the more this habit of thinking this particular thought will seize.
there will no longer be a feeling of pride, of being good or being better than others and vice versa. when others judge me a thought and bodily sensation of being attacked might surface, but again it will be seen as for what it is, it will not be able to stick and be taken personally and simplay work its way through the body like a cloud appearing and passing in the sky.
there will be a deep sense of peace and a feeling of being home. there will be a realization that i only believed that i had lost total well being and this being at home naturally, because i am that.
all this will no longer be known intellectually but all encompassingly. it will not be that i know, i am looking through a filter of habitual thought and subconscious beliefs but the mind will be so open and will have apparently slowed down to a degree where i can actually realize it's working. i will be able to see it, as if it where a voice clearly speaking into my ear describing what is going on. this voice will be realized as my own and yet i am listening to it as if coming from an outer source. at the same time the voice will be inside me.
the image and idea that i have been having of me as long as i can remember, as liv, as my story attached to this body-mind, will dissolve and become a memory, of : this was what i was thinking for all these years.
the sense of time will change and i will always feel this is always now. i will realize how time is an impression of mind.
the movement of mind into past memory and future imagination, will naturally seize.
i will be much more present than now and increasingly more present. i will increasingly feel more alive.
as the static of mind dissipates and the mind opens and relaxes, the naturall weather of this climate zone will happen more and more. the co-system will come back to balance and through this peace and clarity the true inclinations of this body-mind will come forth. i will be inspired and will freely express what i love to do. there will be a surfacing of my true talents and i will experience great joy in experiencing them freely unfold.
through this opennes, stillness and peace it is possible that a great power might surface, that has been supressed under the static of mind and the contraction of body for a long time. but there will no longer be any attachment to whatever this body-mind does. if it should continue to do nothing and have no interest in anything in the world other than sitting on a bench and watching dragonflys play midair than this is just as well and deep satisfying joy will be seen in this as this joy is naturally what is and is not dependant on the weather or climate zone of the body mind which is but a vantage point of the perception happening.
it will be realized, seen, felt and intuitively, consciously known that what i am is not the perception but what is percieving and this cannot be anything or discribed but only experienced, known realized.
so far for question 1.
i loved answering this and i never have put it into words so clearly.
thank you annie.
now i must go and will return as soon as i can.
but i think perhaps not today as my sister is coming to visit.
Re: who would like to guide me?
Hi Liv,
Thanks for your post, glad you loved writing it.
Wow, that's a lot of expectations! Can you put them aside for now? Are you willing to explore further even if seeing through the illusion doesn't give you all of those things? Everyone's experience of this is unique.
Looking forward to your answers to the other questions tomorrow,
with love
Annie
Thanks for your post, glad you loved writing it.
Wow, that's a lot of expectations! Can you put them aside for now? Are you willing to explore further even if seeing through the illusion doesn't give you all of those things? Everyone's experience of this is unique.
Looking forward to your answers to the other questions tomorrow,
with love
Annie
Re: who would like to guide me?
oh, ok,
i just had a few more moments to write and was going to ad some further expectations (to question1.) . after i finished my lat post, they kept fludding in and it felt that it was important that i become aware and clarify all my expectations. but now as i read your request of setting them all aside, i am not sure if it is important to bring them onto "paper" furthermore. so i will not add or clarify the list of expectations and i will put them aside. which means, if i notice that these expectations arise as thoughts i will not engage them but put them in an imaginary safe place. i will imagine what it is like not to have any expectations. i will imagine what it would be if i could not even think those thoughts. i will let them go for now, as far as that is possible...
i desire nothing more than to see through the illusion, no matter what the outcome.
i just had a few more moments to write and was going to ad some further expectations (to question1.) . after i finished my lat post, they kept fludding in and it felt that it was important that i become aware and clarify all my expectations. but now as i read your request of setting them all aside, i am not sure if it is important to bring them onto "paper" furthermore. so i will not add or clarify the list of expectations and i will put them aside. which means, if i notice that these expectations arise as thoughts i will not engage them but put them in an imaginary safe place. i will imagine what it is like not to have any expectations. i will imagine what it would be if i could not even think those thoughts. i will let them go for now, as far as that is possible...
i desire nothing more than to see through the illusion, no matter what the outcome.
Re: who would like to guide me?
lovely! Yes, they are just thoughts which appear, like clouds in a sky.i will imagine what it would be if i could not even think those thoughts. i will let them go for now, as far as that is possible...
Looking forward to your answers to the other questions,
with love
Annie
Re: who would like to guide me?
good morning annie,
now i will answer the next question:
2. Tell me all the places or ways in which you think you as a self exist, and where you already have no doubt that it does not exist. Answer this from your current experience, what you know to be true now for you, and not from what you've been taught.
places....ways --- i --- self --- exist...in experience...now...
i am sitting in my room typing these words into the lap top, i here voices outside my window, now they left,
i hear car sounds at a distance, now the fan of my lap top, and other sounds, i feel my body, someone is coming back into the house, the door shuts again, footsteps walking away...my heart is slightly beating more...some how this is exciting...i remember all my life...its readily available to come into consciousness....it's always latently there...the question reverberating inside: i as a self exist...bringing forth slight physical reaction of tears welling up in my throat, sadness...all i can do to answer this question is describe my current experience. describe all perceptions/sensations....what lands on paper depends on where my focus of mind goes...is it more on seeing, like it just rested for an instant on the little blue controlelight on my laptop...in that moment all is still there is no sadness...sigh, the thought comes...there is no volition in my focus...but this seems to be learned rather than coming from immedeate experience...and that is not the question here, or?
quick descision to not re-read what i just wrote...quick thought...what are people gonna think about me when they read these words...i dont' care, this was just a thought popping in...i continue to describe...
places..ways..i self exist...in experience..now: i am here and can only ever be here, whereever here is (tad of sadness). ways: there is only my experience made of sensations of all senses (feeling (emotions and physical sensations--to me, emotions are physical sensations in the area between the middle of throat and the deep gut which are attached to a thought/story...it's like they tell a story, like: i am sad), smell, taste, hearing, and thoughts.
there is a beeping noise outside my window which is interrupting my flow of concentration and it bothers me...
I want to know the answer to this, i want to really realize it, not just spurt out thoughts...
i exist that is all i can say, because there is percieving going on and all i can do to answer this question is to describe my experience. places and ways in which "i as a self" exist. what else could i be than this? what else could i do than percieve? yes my fingers are typing, there is a stream of thoughts flowing through my mind and some of them land in this post...and i am percieving this. i bet there is a lot more going on, but all i am aware of is whatever shows up in my conscious perception. that is what is, that is me. i don't know what i as a self is. because i don't know what else i could be than self, i have never had a different experience. now memory pops up that indeed i have had the experience of being in different bodies and being in more than one body at the same time, but this was in a dream, when my body was lying asleep and this is coming from memory, hence is not my current experience, hence is not answering the question.
what this memory from my dream is telling, is that even when i was in different bodies, even when i was doing things i would never do in waking life, even when i was an animal, even when i was two bodies at the same time interacting...i was always this i, same sense of i as i have now, although totally different body and story and sensations.
i exist, but i don't know what self is other than a word.
to the second part of the question: tell me where you already have no doubt that "i as self" does not exist:
all i know is existence. i cannot imagine non-existence. only in memory if i ask myself where was i before i was born. i have no recollection of the time even before i was a certain age and yet i know i was there, because i was born before my first memory. i do not know and i cannot imagine not existing, all i know is existing.
annie,
i don't know if you will read all of this, but even if you read a part of it, i thank you for giving your presence to me.
i really appreciate it. it makes a world of a difference to just be writing to myself or being in communication with someone.
later gater,
liv
(and i will not go back to re-read and correct what i just wrote and just press the post button...i appologize for my typos and grammatical faults etc.) what counts is that you get what is conveyed.
now i will answer the next question:
2. Tell me all the places or ways in which you think you as a self exist, and where you already have no doubt that it does not exist. Answer this from your current experience, what you know to be true now for you, and not from what you've been taught.
places....ways --- i --- self --- exist...in experience...now...
i am sitting in my room typing these words into the lap top, i here voices outside my window, now they left,
i hear car sounds at a distance, now the fan of my lap top, and other sounds, i feel my body, someone is coming back into the house, the door shuts again, footsteps walking away...my heart is slightly beating more...some how this is exciting...i remember all my life...its readily available to come into consciousness....it's always latently there...the question reverberating inside: i as a self exist...bringing forth slight physical reaction of tears welling up in my throat, sadness...all i can do to answer this question is describe my current experience. describe all perceptions/sensations....what lands on paper depends on where my focus of mind goes...is it more on seeing, like it just rested for an instant on the little blue controlelight on my laptop...in that moment all is still there is no sadness...sigh, the thought comes...there is no volition in my focus...but this seems to be learned rather than coming from immedeate experience...and that is not the question here, or?
quick descision to not re-read what i just wrote...quick thought...what are people gonna think about me when they read these words...i dont' care, this was just a thought popping in...i continue to describe...
places..ways..i self exist...in experience..now: i am here and can only ever be here, whereever here is (tad of sadness). ways: there is only my experience made of sensations of all senses (feeling (emotions and physical sensations--to me, emotions are physical sensations in the area between the middle of throat and the deep gut which are attached to a thought/story...it's like they tell a story, like: i am sad), smell, taste, hearing, and thoughts.
there is a beeping noise outside my window which is interrupting my flow of concentration and it bothers me...
I want to know the answer to this, i want to really realize it, not just spurt out thoughts...
i exist that is all i can say, because there is percieving going on and all i can do to answer this question is to describe my experience. places and ways in which "i as a self" exist. what else could i be than this? what else could i do than percieve? yes my fingers are typing, there is a stream of thoughts flowing through my mind and some of them land in this post...and i am percieving this. i bet there is a lot more going on, but all i am aware of is whatever shows up in my conscious perception. that is what is, that is me. i don't know what i as a self is. because i don't know what else i could be than self, i have never had a different experience. now memory pops up that indeed i have had the experience of being in different bodies and being in more than one body at the same time, but this was in a dream, when my body was lying asleep and this is coming from memory, hence is not my current experience, hence is not answering the question.
what this memory from my dream is telling, is that even when i was in different bodies, even when i was doing things i would never do in waking life, even when i was an animal, even when i was two bodies at the same time interacting...i was always this i, same sense of i as i have now, although totally different body and story and sensations.
i exist, but i don't know what self is other than a word.
to the second part of the question: tell me where you already have no doubt that "i as self" does not exist:
all i know is existence. i cannot imagine non-existence. only in memory if i ask myself where was i before i was born. i have no recollection of the time even before i was a certain age and yet i know i was there, because i was born before my first memory. i do not know and i cannot imagine not existing, all i know is existing.
annie,
i don't know if you will read all of this, but even if you read a part of it, i thank you for giving your presence to me.
i really appreciate it. it makes a world of a difference to just be writing to myself or being in communication with someone.
later gater,
liv
(and i will not go back to re-read and correct what i just wrote and just press the post button...i appologize for my typos and grammatical faults etc.) what counts is that you get what is conveyed.
Re: who would like to guide me?
Hi Liv,
Do the thoughts need a 'you' for them to happen? Can 'you' control them?
Do feelings/emotions need a 'you' for them to happen? Can 'you' control them?
Happy looking!
with love
Annie
Liv, I read every single word you write, and appreciate and value your words and presence. :)i don't know if you will read all of this, but even if you read a part of it, i thank you for giving your presence to me.
Excellent observation! Experiencing of sense perceptions, thoughts and feelings is exactly what is happening. And as you say, the thoughts and feelings 'tell a story', the story of Liv.there is only my experience made of sensations of all senses (feeling (emotions and physical sensations--to me, emotions are physical sensations in the area between the middle of throat and the deep gut which are attached to a thought/story...it's like they tell a story, like: i am sad), smell, taste, hearing, and thoughts.
Yes, this is the centre of the illusion. Let's dismantle the illusion of the self bit by bit.i don't know what else i could be than self
Does the body need a 'you' for it to function? Check and observe this with a range of body functions.i exist that is all i can say, because there is percieving going on
Do the thoughts need a 'you' for them to happen? Can 'you' control them?
Do feelings/emotions need a 'you' for them to happen? Can 'you' control them?
Happy looking!
with love
Annie
Re: who would like to guide me?
good morning annie,
first of all let me say that i am very touched to read that you read every word i write! such a gift.
i checked in briefly last night and read your reply with subsequent investigative questions. i found myself
to exhausted to do this honest looking excersice yesterday. this morning i will first continue by answering the last of the primary three questions. i will post the answers to the investigative questions after i have thoroughly investigated them.
3. If I say to you 'Liv, you do not exist as a separate self, you NEVER HAVE existed as a separate self', what do you notice happens in your body and mind as you hear that?
sadness...tears...relief...the spontaneous image of me laying my head in your lap and tears rolling down my face...it feels like all i ever wanted, but never knew, it's salvation...but i think i am crying now and feeling sad because i know this and yet i go about and experience myself as a person very much so. but i just want to revel in this truth, i want it to fully take me, i want experience this...somehow i am so attached to this version of me "liv"...that is not a problem, the problem is that "I" as Liv, this story, this version of me is impossible to be free, i feel like i am in a straight jacket, in prison, i cannot stand the heavyness of this story anymore and yet i love liv so much, i love myself so much, and yet i am so miserable, so sad and feel so forsaken and alone.
i will read your question once again, as if you where asking it: it's light as a feather, infinitely lighter even, when my focus can rest in that sentence, in those words that i know are not a belief, they are not a concept, they are true,..and still i know as soon as i am off the computer and exit my room i am back in the liv-story...
namaste
first of all let me say that i am very touched to read that you read every word i write! such a gift.
i checked in briefly last night and read your reply with subsequent investigative questions. i found myself
to exhausted to do this honest looking excersice yesterday. this morning i will first continue by answering the last of the primary three questions. i will post the answers to the investigative questions after i have thoroughly investigated them.
3. If I say to you 'Liv, you do not exist as a separate self, you NEVER HAVE existed as a separate self', what do you notice happens in your body and mind as you hear that?
sadness...tears...relief...the spontaneous image of me laying my head in your lap and tears rolling down my face...it feels like all i ever wanted, but never knew, it's salvation...but i think i am crying now and feeling sad because i know this and yet i go about and experience myself as a person very much so. but i just want to revel in this truth, i want it to fully take me, i want experience this...somehow i am so attached to this version of me "liv"...that is not a problem, the problem is that "I" as Liv, this story, this version of me is impossible to be free, i feel like i am in a straight jacket, in prison, i cannot stand the heavyness of this story anymore and yet i love liv so much, i love myself so much, and yet i am so miserable, so sad and feel so forsaken and alone.
i will read your question once again, as if you where asking it: it's light as a feather, infinitely lighter even, when my focus can rest in that sentence, in those words that i know are not a belief, they are not a concept, they are true,..and still i know as soon as i am off the computer and exit my room i am back in the liv-story...
namaste
Re: who would like to guide me?
one more this morning:
Investigative question 1.)
Does the body need a 'you' for it to function? Check and observe this with a range of body functions.
i notice that when i think no thoughts or when i listen to the sentence "there never has been a You as a seperate entity, a seperate self" my body relaxes. when i sleep there is no liv-story happening and my body functions fine. i do not need to think about anything in order for my body to function. and "me" is always in mental reference. it is an idea that is always active, that is a humongeous wad of information, including all memories. but if i where not able to think, if thinking, referencing stopped, body functions fine, body relaxes. body actually contracts when self referencing to the me-story of a separet self is mentally active. but it does it's thing no matter what goes on in the mind, in other words in thinking.
thank you annie,
gotto go now, will be back as soon as i can, probably not before tomorrow :)
Investigative question 1.)
Does the body need a 'you' for it to function? Check and observe this with a range of body functions.
i notice that when i think no thoughts or when i listen to the sentence "there never has been a You as a seperate entity, a seperate self" my body relaxes. when i sleep there is no liv-story happening and my body functions fine. i do not need to think about anything in order for my body to function. and "me" is always in mental reference. it is an idea that is always active, that is a humongeous wad of information, including all memories. but if i where not able to think, if thinking, referencing stopped, body functions fine, body relaxes. body actually contracts when self referencing to the me-story of a separet self is mentally active. but it does it's thing no matter what goes on in the mind, in other words in thinking.
thank you annie,
gotto go now, will be back as soon as i can, probably not before tomorrow :)
Re: who would like to guide me?
My heart goes out to you in your feelings of sadness and abandonment, dearest Liv. You are a wise woman, you know these feelings are like storm clouds that appear, and they will pass, the clear sky is always behind them. And you noticed that when thinking subsides, the story of Liv subsides, the feelings subside, and the body relaxes - such a blessed relief!i cannot stand the heavyness of this story anymore and yet i love liv so much, i love myself so much, and yet i am so miserable, so sad and feel so forsaken and alone.
On a practical note, if these feelings are very overwhelming, do you know of EFT - Emotional Freedom Technique?
So you are 100% clear that you are not the body?the body does..... it's thing no matter what goes on in the mind
Yes indeed, that's where 'you' exist, as the subject of a thought. We'll come back to this more. I look forward to reading your answers to the other 2 investigations."me" is always in mental reference
with love
Annie
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