Seeking guidance from Kay

[edzd]

Sorry Kay - I pressed submit by accident. Here's a complete post

What does the sentence "loud, alarming and attention grabbing sound with high pitch and is 3 part rhythm" point to exactly? Does it point to thought, colour, taste, smell, taste or sensation?

It's pointing to a thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Holding a frying pan - Sensation/touch
Seeing a frying pan - color
Hearing a car drive by - sound
Feeling body temperature rise - sensation
Reading computer screen - color
Hearing the dishwasher - sound
Seeing the dog - color
Petting the dog - sensation
Hearing a motorcycle - sound
Eating a cookie - taste

Basically throughout the day I noticed how segmented things were - or unrelated - but they were tied together under the concept of whatever the object was. Like the taste of water was a completely different experience than the color of water - but each experience was categorized under the umbrella of "water." Am I taking this too far into discussion?

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ed,

Thank you for the AE examples. It seems you are clear about AE.

What does the sentence "loud, alarming and attention grabbing sound with high pitch and is 3 part rhythm" point to exactly? Does it point to thought, colour, taste, smell, taste or sensation?

You forgot to answer this question. Please answer ALL questions that I have written in blue.

So let's move onto looking at the nature of thought.

Here is a thought exercise. Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Kay

[edzd]

What does the sentence "loud, alarming and attention grabbing sound with high pitch and is 3 part rhythm" point to exactly? Does it point to thought, colour, taste, smell, taste or sensation?

Sorry - the post got submitted early and I ended up posting the 2nd part shortly after. My answer read: It's pointing to a thought.

Where are they coming from and going to?

- From nothing and back to nothing. They just appear and disappear.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

- I do nothing

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

- No, I can't even anticipate a thought or predict what it'd be.

Can you predict your next thought?

No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

No, but sometimes it seems thought is interrupted when attention shifts. But this is just another thought.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

It's just more thought to be believed in. The concept of logical is just a thought. It may seem logical at times but it can change direction on a dime.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Ed,

Nice observations with the thought exercise!

It's just more thought to be believed in. The concept of logical is just a thought. It may seem logical at times but it can change direction on a dime.

Exactly!

Okay, so let's look at the idea of control, choice and decisions.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Kay

[edzd]

How is the movement controlled?

The movement is controlled automatically - or you could say isn't controlled. It's a little eerie trying to process why it's happening - like the experience is reacting to itself. But again, that's just another thought and there's no way of verifying it's truth.

Does a thought control it?

No. For a bit thought was saying, "up, down, up down...etc" at the exact times of the hand turns - more akin to mimicking the movement than commanding it..

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No controller can be located in actual experience. The idea of a controller can only be found in thought.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Paradoxical, but "I" engaged in making a conscious decisions to turn the hand over a few times to see what happened. Each time there was hesitation, and the moment of turning over remained unpredictable. Otherwise things moved fluidly and also had no decision point.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Nothing locatable in AE.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Ed,

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Paradoxical, but "I" engaged in making a conscious decisions to turn the hand over a few times to see what happened. Each time there was hesitation, and the moment of turning over remained unpredictable. Otherwise things moved fluidly and also had no decision point.

Everything in the dream is paradoxical! As you noticed, the hand did not turn every time the thought appeared asking the hand to turn. So if thought was the catalyst, then the hand would have turned, no matter what. It’s like when you find yourself scratching and itch but have no recollection of starting to scratch the itch!

So we continue with looking at choice more thoroughly. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Kay

[edzd]

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities just popped up - slowly. A preference appeared but went back and forth between the two. There was no ability to predict when these things would happen.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

There was no mental function noticed. In between the preferences and counting was a thought pointing to thought (the instructions of the exercise). Counting happened and a drink was selected.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Nothing announced that it was going to chose. No conscious mental functions took place.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

There was what seemed like a feeling but it didn't provide any indication which drink would be chosen for certain. In fact, the feeling felt more like tension/hesitation similar to the hand exercise when "I" try to make a decision. Like thoughts, it arose in it's own time, unannounced.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ed,

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

There was what seemed like a feeling but it didn't provide any indication which drink would be chosen for certain. In fact, the feeling felt more like tension/hesitation similar to the hand exercise when "I" try to make a decision. Like thoughts, it arose in it's own time, unannounced.

If there is no actual sensation, then a ‘feeling’ is a thought/idea. Neither a sensation or a thought can choose anything :)

Okay, so we have looked at the idea of a controller, decider and chooser. Now let’s look at the idea of a doer/doership.

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Kay

[edzd]

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

No, I have no choice of what I see or what I become aware of.

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same situation as the right - I can't chose not to see.

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Same situation as the right and left.

Can you turn off seeing?

Not willfully - the closest seems to be deepsleep but even that I can't willfully chose. I never know the moment I fall asleep.

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

No, there is no chooser, it's a concept either believed in or not. I'm sincere when I say it's not functioning like it used to over on this end - but regardless all this is helpful.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Nothing. Choice is predicated on the idea of control. Control is predicated on the idea of a separate self. All of these are ideas that are secondary to the experience.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Ed,

Can you turn off seeing?

Not willfully - the closest seems to be deepsleep but even that I can't willfully chose. I never know the moment I fall asleep.

What is it exactly that sleeps and goes into a deep sleep?
There is a difference between awareness of absence and absence of awareness.

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

No, there is no chooser, it's a concept either believed in or not. I'm sincere when I say it's not functioning like it used to over on this end - but regardless all this is helpful.

That’s great, but yes, I will still cover all aspects in this exploration so it can be seen that a separate self does not hide anywhere.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Nothing. Choice is predicated on the idea of control. Control is predicated on the idea of a separate self. All of these are ideas that are secondary to the experience.

Yes. So is there doership? Could a doer be found anywhere?

There is also a difference between 'the experience' and simply experience. THE experience points to separation...that there are differences experienceS. Experience simply points to experience itself/THIS appearing exactly as it is.

Look carefully at this. How is sound different to colour and colour different to thought and thought different to taste and taste different to sensation and sensation different to smell?

Kay

[edzd]

What is it exactly that sleeps and goes into a deep sleep?
There is a difference between awareness of absence and absence of awareness.

The latter sounds impossible. The projection stops in deep sleep. The elements of AE are absent. That's the best I can express it without making too many assumptions.

Yes. So is there doership? Could a doer be found anywhere?

No doership can be found in AE, only thought pointing to more thought.

Look carefully at this. How is sound different to colour and colour different to thought and thought different to taste and taste different to sensation and sensation different to smell?

All these things, absent of meaning, seem impossible to differentiate - but to me seem entirely unique on their own. As if their uniqueness is inherent - but I'm unable to describe how. I can't even describe their qualities.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ed,

What is it exactly that sleeps and goes into a deep sleep?
There is a difference between awareness of absence and absence of awareness.

The latter sounds impossible. The projection stops in deep sleep. The elements of AE are absent. That's the best I can express it without making too many assumptions.

I want you to look everywhere carefully and describe to me in precise detail what it is exactly that goes to sleep.
Whether or not “projections stop” you are aware of the awareness of absence. The idea that the seeming absence was around 8 hours is based on the belief in time.

There are no elements of AE. There is soundcoloursmelltastesensationthought which is synonymous with THIS/experience/What IS. It is thought that divides experience and then labels it sound AND smell AND thought AND sensation AND taste AND colour. Thought layers raw experience with the label ‘sound’. Without that label all there is, is WHAT IS/THIS/experience appearing exactly as it is.

Look carefully at this. How is sound different to colour and colour different to thought and thought different to taste and taste different to sensation and sensation different to smell?

All these things, absent of meaning, seem impossible to differentiate - but to me seem entirely unique on their own. As if their uniqueness is inherent - but I'm unable to describe how. I can't even describe their qualities.

How is it known that they are “entirely unique on their own”?

Can an experiencer of experience be found? Or is there simply indescribable experience, which is inseparable from the knowing of it?

Please close your eyes for this exercise. Notice any ‘mental’ images and thoughts about a 'hand' and 'table' that appear and put them aside (ie ignore them).

Place a hand on a table.
Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on table' and answer from what you can FIND in actual experience (AE).

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and table) or is there one thing – AE of sensation?
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'sensation'?
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin?
Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found?
Is there a dividing line between ‘feeler’ and ‘felt’, or is there just feelerfelt (AE as sensation)?
Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt' (AE sensation)?

If no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the 'feeler' be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Kay

[edzd]

I want you to look everywhere carefully and describe to me in precise detail what it is exactly that goes to sleep.

Without thought to divide - nothing goes to sleep. Thought is dividing experience into awake / sleep using the concept of time. Thought says, "I slept" in reference to a thought called a memory. Sleep isn't occurring now so I have no way to report on it.

How is it known that they are “entirely unique on their own”?

That's a thought pointing to thought. It's not known.

Can an experiencer of experience be found? Or is there simply indescribable experience, which is inseparable from the knowing of it?

An experiencer would be more thought and thought isn't separate from the experience. No experiencer can be found.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and table) or is there one thing – AE of sensation?

One sensation

2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'sensation'?

Just sensation..

3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?

Only sensation

Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin?

I need to break this down because I don't know what feeling is suggesting. This is my understanding: Feeling suggests that there is the feeler, the felt, and the sensation produced by the feeler contacting the felt. All of this lies in thought. In AE there is no feeler/felt outside of thought. They'd begin and end at the same time.

Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found?

No dividing line. Feeling is just a thought pointing to a sensation.

Is there a dividing line between ‘feeler’ and ‘felt’, or is there just feelerfelt (AE as sensation)?

No dividing line. There's just the sensation.

Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt' (AE sensation)?

No, only thought can be found pointing at the sensation.

If no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the 'feeler' be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

The feeler can only be found in thought.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ed,

I want you to look everywhere carefully and describe to me in precise detail what it is exactly that goes to sleep.

Without thought to divide - nothing goes to sleep. Thought is dividing experience into awake / sleep using the concept of time. Thought says, "I slept" in reference to a thought called a memory. Sleep isn't occurring now so I have no way to report on it.

I’m not interested in trying to convince you of anything. I am only here to point. The question is - can you find anyone/anything that goes to sleep? It doesn’t matter whether sleep is occurring now or not…LOOK to see if you can find a sleeper. Can an actual sleeper be found in thought, colour, sound, sensation, smell or taste?

Can an experiencer of experience be found? Or is there simply indescribable experience, which is inseparable from the knowing of it?

An experiencer would be more thought and thought isn't separate from the experience. No experiencer can be found.

Did you LOOK to see if you could actually find an experiencer….or you basing your answer on previous gained knowledge? It is the LOOKING that brings the realisation of no self….not knowledge.

Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin?

I need to break this down because I don't know what feeling is suggesting. This is my understanding: Feeling suggests that there is the feeler, the felt, and the sensation produced by the feeler contacting the felt. All of this lies in thought. In AE there is no feeler/felt outside of thought. They'd begin and end at the same time.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is either a table or a hand?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a feeler?
Does a sensation know anything about anything?

If no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the 'feeler' be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

The feeler can only be found in thought.

Exactly. So can an experiencer of experience be found?

So let’s do another experiment but this time using seer/colour.

Sit quietly somewhere where you won't be disturbed.
Take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and then close your eyes.

When closing the eyes, notice there is the experience of 'blackness'. There may a bright light, a red glow, sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics. We are just noticing ‘blackness’.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is simply AE of colour labelled ‘black’?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than seeing ‘black’?
3) Can what is seeing ‘black’ found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is ‘seeing’ ‘black’?

Is there anything that is witnessing the colour labelled ‘black’? Or ‘black’ just is?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘seeing’ end and colour begin? Can a dividing line between ‘seeing’ and colour be found? Or is there just seeing/colour?

Can a 'see-er' ever be found in 'what is being seen' – AE colour?

If that is all, and no INHERENT SEE-ER found . . . would anything that is suggested as the see-er be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Okay….then open the eyes and look around.

Is there a difference between the ‘black’ when eyes are closed and ‘colour’ when eyes are open or are they both simply the appearance of colour?

Is there anything that is witnessing colour?

Is the ‘see-er’ of the seen actually separate from the seen, or is it all a singular experience?

Kay

[edzd]

Did you LOOK to see if you could actually find an experiencer….or you basing your answer on previous gained knowledge? It is the LOOKING that brings the realisation of no self….not knowledge.

I look every time. I don't know if the realization you mention is something different from what already happened (which was nothing really). Will the realization make a big announcement? I'm not trying to be daft, just confused. There's no one here. There's no subject that can be found anywhere. I even want to say it's obvious.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is either a table or a hand?

Neither.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a feeler?

No, the sensation is just itself.

Does a sensation know anything about anything?

No.

Exactly. So can an experiencer of experience be found?

No, an experiencer cannot be found.

Is there anything that is witnessing the colour labelled ‘black’? Or ‘black’ just is?

Black just is.

Look very carefully. Where does ‘seeing’ end and colour begin? Can a dividing line between ‘seeing’ and colour be found? Or is there just seeing/colour?

No dividing line can be located. Seeing and color are the same.

If that is all, and no INHERENT SEE-ER found . . . would anything that is suggested as the see-er be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Yes - that is my experience. Only thought can suggest that there is something more to what is happening.

Is there a difference between the ‘black’ when eyes are closed and ‘colour’ when eyes are open or are they both simply the appearance of colour?

They are both simply the appearance of color.

I

s there anything that is witnessing colour?

No and it's really weird. Thought finds it really weird - like it seems impossible for thought to comment on color, but it does.

Is the ‘see-er’ of the seen actually separate from the seen, or is it all a singular experience?

It's just one experience - I don't know how anything would be separate. To me that suggests you could remove something or if there was an experiencer it could chose not to experience.