West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,
I'm working a 12 hour shift today so probably won't get to post a response till Friday.
Regards
Ado

[forgetmenot]

No worries :)

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I did that experiment and realized that there can't and isn't an apple in actual experience as I have tried to explain.

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No it can’t as I have explained in the down below.

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

I’m a little stuck on the difference between a thought that is known like the is the thought ‘apple’ known and the thoughts describing the apple just story….is not the first thought ‘apple’ just a labeling thought and therefore not really known either?? When you say it is known is what you mean that it is only known through the ‘knowledge’ that was taught to me as a toddler that what I’m looking at in front of me is an apple. Before I was told what apparently it was it was just a shape that felt solid to touch there was a smell from it and a taste when I bit into it but and a sound as I munched on the piece I had bitten off but if I had no labels to name it it is just an experience. In other words the ‘apple’ can’t be known by anything other than an experience when the minds labeling is taken out of the equation.

All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado,

I’m a little stuck on the difference between a thought that is known like the is the thought ‘apple’ known and the thoughts describing the apple just story….is not the first thought ‘apple’ just a labeling thought and therefore not really known either??

All thoughts are known! Are you not aware of the label (thought) ‘apple’? How can that label be unknown when you are aware of it? Thought either points to AE or it points to thoughts about thought!

What does the label ‘apple’ point to exactly? Does it point to smell, taste, colour, sensation, sound or thought?

When you say it is known is what you mean that it is only known through the ‘knowledge’ that was taught to me as a toddler that what I’m looking at in front of me is an apple.

This is an assumption that thoughts have meaning. And what is so called ‘knowledge’ made up of? Thoughts….right? Thought is actual experience…but thought in and of itself does not contain any experience, otherwise the word ‘sweet’ would taste sweet, the word ‘thunder’ would be heard, the word ‘hot’ would be felt.

Before I was told what apparently it was it was just a shape that felt solid to touch

Really? Get an apple, close your eyes and ignore ALL thoughts and mental images. What is the actual experience?

there was a smell from it and a taste when I bit into it but and a sound as I munched on the piece I had bitten off but if I had no labels to name it it is just an experience. In other words the ‘apple’ can’t be known by anything other than an experience when the minds labeling is taken out of the equation.

How can an apple be known? The actual experience is label + sound + smell + taste + thoughts about AE being an apple. Where in AE do you find an apple?


Go back to the first AE exercise we did with sound which thought labels as 'running water'.

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I was working a 12 hour shift again today but I was able to focus on my responses during my breaks and I did the exercise closing my eyes with an apple and what I found was that an ‘apple’ can’t be found in actual experience when all thought is ignored.

All thoughts are known! Are you not aware of the label (thought) ‘apple’? How can that label be unknown when you are aware of it? Thought either points to AE or it points to thoughts about thought!

What does the label ‘apple’ point to exactly? Does it point to smell, taste, colour, sensation, sound or thought?

The label ‘apple’ points to thought as the label apple is just another thought.

How can an apple be known? The actual experience is label + sound + smell + taste + thoughts about AE being an apple. Where in AE do you find an apple?

Like the sound exercise re the labeling of running water which is only a thought, therefore there is no ‘running water’ in actual experience. There's also no apple in actual experience without the labeling thought ‘apple’. If an infant looks at an apple and touches it even licks it to try and taste it as far as its concerned there's no apple there its just an object with shape colour taste and smell.
So I can't find an apple in AE.

Really? Get an apple, close your eyes and ignore ALL thoughts and mental images. What is the actual experience?

The actual experience was just the feeling of an object in my hand that felt cold to the touch ...there was a faint smell ..after biting into it there was a taste…...but when I really focused on the ‘apple’ in my hand and noticed the smooth texture and and totally ignored thought there was nothing there that I could call an ‘apple’. There was just an object in my hand which gave me a tactile experience but it was a no-thing essentially without thought coming in to label it. In other words there was no ‘apple’ in AE.


All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hello Adrian,

Really? Get an apple, close your eyes and ignore ALL thoughts and mental images. What is the actual experience?

The actual experience was just the feeling of an object in my hand that felt cold to the touch ...there was a faint smell ..after biting into it there was a taste…...but when I really focused on the ‘apple’ in my hand and noticed the smooth texture and and totally ignored thought there was nothing there that I could call an ‘apple’. There was just an object in my hand which gave me a tactile experience but it was a no-thing essentially without thought coming in to label it. In other words there was no ‘apple’ in AE.

Yes…but when you ‘touch/hold’ an apple what is the AE? Is it taste, sound, colour, thought, smell or sensation? What is your direct/actual experience when you 'touch/hold' an apple?

Do the following and do it several times and look very carefully. Ignore ALL thoughts and mental images of a table, hand, fingers, palm etc.

Put your hands palm down on a table. Close your eyes. Now IGNORING all thoughts and images…what is the actual experience? Can you find a table or hand, or all there is, is the AE of sensation?

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I'm not long in from another long working day. I did the exercise with the hands on the table when I got in from work and I'll do it again in the morning and then give me response to it.

Take care

Ado

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I did the experiment with the apple again and I also did the hands on the table exercise twice both last night after work and again this morning.

Yes…but when you ‘touch/hold’ an apple what is the AE? Is it taste, sound, colour, thought, smell or sensation? What is your direct/actual experience when you 'touch/hold' an apple?

There is only sensation when all thoughts and images are ignored …...the sensation is all that's left.

Put your hands palm down on a table. Close your eyes. Now IGNORING all thoughts and images…what is the actual experience? Can you find a table or hand, or all there is, is the AE of sensation?

As mentioned above I did this exercise twice and once I was able to still the mind and ignore all thoughts and images all that was left was sensation. There was no hand or table I even found it hard to find a dividing line between them. The sensation was coldness as the kitchen was chilly and so the table felt cold to the touch. There was just sensation of coldness and a slight pulsating vibrating energy with no hand or table to be found in AE.

All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado,

Yes…but when you ‘touch/hold’ an apple what is the AE? Is it taste, sound, colour, thought, smell or sensation? What is your direct/actual experience when you 'touch/hold' an apple?

There is only sensation when all thoughts and images are ignored …...the sensation is all that's left.

Yes, exactly. It is only thought that labels the sensation as ‘smooth’, ‘hard’, ‘cool’, ‘apple’ as a means to describe it. But the bare bones of 'apple' is sensation.

Put your hands palm down on a table. Close your eyes. Now IGNORING all thoughts and images…what is the actual experience? Can you find a table or hand, or all there is, is the AE of sensation?

As mentioned above I did this exercise twice and once I was able to still the mind and ignore all thoughts and images all that was left was sensation. There was no hand or table I even found it hard to find a dividing line between them. The sensation was coldness as the kitchen was chilly and so the table felt cold to the touch. There was just sensation of coldness and a slight pulsating vibrating energy with no hand or table to be found in AE.

Yes, the AE is just sensation – there is no actual experience of hand or table. Thought overlays experience with stories. “Coldness” and “pulsating vibration energy” is thought trying to describe actual experience ie overlaying AE of sensation with a story.

Without thought can actual “coldness” and “pulsating vibration energy” be found in AE?

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.


Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I have been working on that exercise and I'll post a proper reply later on.

All the best

Ado

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I hope you are well. Here are my experiences with the exercise you gave me.

Without thought can actual “coldness” and “pulsating vibration energy” be found in AE?

No neither coldness or pulsating vibration energy can be found in AE without thought.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

As I’m typing this I just realised that I didn’t read the instructions clearly enough as I had only been labeling the activities and objects and not emotions. That is interesting in itself. I have been experiencing a lot of resistance to this exercise or maybe just generally I’m noticing over the last week or so that I’m trying to distract myself as much as possible from being in the moment. Like watching Netflix, listening to the radio a lot in the car on my commute to work instead of being with the silence and reading a lot (sports biographies not spiritual books) on my kindle and eating too much sugar.

I have been doing the exercise as much as possible the last couple of days. I went for a long walk this morning on the hill behind my house and sat down beside a small waterfall and closed my eyes and just listened to the sound which was very loud. I then opened my eyes and just kept saying colour to myself as I looked at the different shades of green of the trees and moss and so on. There were brief glimpses of clarity when my mind stopped the running commentary and there was just stillness there. A little later on the walk I stepped into some soggy ground and my feet got wet and I just kept saying colour, sound sensation as I looked at the trees and felt the coldness in my feet and also the the rough ground beneath my feet. I also noticed that for some reason when I keep my head up and looked into the distance and took in the whole scene with my peripheral vision as well that it seemed to be easier to keep the thoughts at bay or at least not engage in them as easily and to stick with the labeling.Also it was as if I was looking at a movie screen in the distance and I didn't seem to associate it with a "me" if that makes sense.
I pigged out on some toast and honey this evening and I have a knot in my stomach cos I rarely eat bread and it usually leaves my feeling crappy. Normally I would feel that crappy feeling in my stomach and then almost automatically negative thoughts would come in which would leave me feeling even worse emotionally. This time I just labelled the feeling in my stomach as sensation and when the thoughts started to come I just labelled them as thoughts and that seems to strip them of at least some of their power.
I also tried the exercise in the shower and just labelled the feeling of running water over my body as just sensation. I have been overthinking the exercise and need to keep at it for a while longer and just label the activities, objects, thoughts and emotions as just thought, sensation, colour/image, taste, smell and sound.

All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hey Ado,

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

As I’m typing this I just realised that I didn’t read the instructions clearly enough as I had only been labeling the activities and objects and not emotions. That is interesting in itself. I have been experiencing a lot of resistance to this exercise or maybe just generally I’m noticing over the last week or so that I’m trying to distract myself as much as possible from being in the moment. Like watching Netflix, listening to the radio a lot in the car on my commute to work instead of being with the silence and reading a lot (sports biographies not spiritual books) on my kindle and eating too much sugar.

Yes, resistance does show up. Resistance is a form of fear and fear will also show up with this exploration. The fear of the unknown, the fear of not having the realisation, the fear of having the realisation, the fear that “I” will disappear with it and so on. It is all normal. Questioning core beliefs does not destroy anything real. Only the false falls away - the false that distorts the view that holds tension, anxiety, suffering. It may feel like a loss, but nothing worth keeping gets lost.

Let’s look at resistance

The label ‘resistance’ is AE of thought and not AE of resistance
The sensation labelled as ‘resistance’ is AE of sensation and not AE of resistance
The image labelled ‘me/I/body’ is AE of colour and not AE of a person resisting
The thoughts about resistance, what it is, what it does and who it is happening to are all thought content of ‘resistance’ and are AE of thought and not AE of resistance.

So what is actually known is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about resistance. But is resistance actually known?

I pigged out on some toast and honey this evening and I have a knot in my stomach cos I rarely eat bread and it usually leaves my feeling crappy. Normally I would feel that crappy feeling in my stomach and then almost automatically negative thoughts would come in which would leave me feeling even worse emotionally. This time I just labelled the feeling in my stomach as sensation and when the thoughts started to come I just labelled them as thoughts and that seems to strip them of at least some of their power.

Yes! Nicely done! When you just see how thought overlays the raw experience of AE, it takes the 'sting' out of what is appearing. When you break it down into AE...you get to see what actually IS, as opposed to what thought says is happening etc

I also tried the exercise in the shower and just labelled the feeling of running water over my body as just sensation. I have been overthinking the exercise and need to keep at it for a while longer and just label the activities, objects, thoughts and emotions as just thought, sensation, colour/image, taste, smell and sound.

You have been doing a great job of breaking stuff down to AE. Take another couple of days so that you feel comfortable with it and that you are clear what AE is.

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

Thanks for your encouraging words. I was really labeling my experience a lot today and it definitely does take the sting out of the attachments to thoughts and emotions for sure. I had a situation in work where I messed up in a small enough way but got quite a dressing down from someone senior to me. It was interesting in that I was able to label fear and the knot in my stomach as sensation as well as standing my ground with the other person while owning my mistake and within 5 mins the situation had completely passed cos as the usual thoughts of beating myself up came into my mind I just kept labelling them as thoughts and they just didn't have the same power. In that type of situation I could ruminate about it for a while day or more and work myself into a right lather all over believing my thoughts. Even thinking back over it now there's very little residue which is just fantastic.
So I'm going to continue with the labeling exercise for another day or two. I'm working another 12 hour shift tomorrow and then collecting my girls for the weekend. (Myself and my wife separated April 2018). I probably won't be able to post again till Saturday at the earliest re the resistance exercise. Thanks again for your time and guidance I'm very grateful.

All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado,

Thanks for your encouraging words. I was really labeling my experience a lot today and it definitely does take the sting out of the attachments to thoughts and emotions for sure.
I had a situation in work where I messed up in a small enough way but got quite a dressing down from someone senior to me. It was interesting in that I was able to label fear and the knot in my stomach as sensation as well as standing my ground with the other person while owning my mistake and within 5 mins the situation had completely passed

Wonderful that you saw that the knot and fear were simply AE of sensation. Just remember though…we are not trying to get rid of anything…all we are doing is looking to see what actually is. If the sensation dissipates and leaves…that is a byproduct of looking and is not what looking is for. Otherwise this becomes a new form of seeking…the seeking to get rid of either sensations or thoughts…which is still seeking and all seeking is suffering.

cos as the usual thoughts of beating myself up came into my mind I just kept labelling them as thoughts and they just didn't have the same power. In that type of situation I could ruminate about it for a while day or more and work myself into a right lather all over believing my thoughts. Even thinking back over it now there's very little residue which is just fantastic.

Really LOOK each time a seemingly disturbing thought appears and check:
If you made a particular thought appear
If you wanted that thought to appear in the first place
If you chose that thought to appear
Do you have ANYTHING to do with any thoughts?

So I'm going to continue with the labeling exercise for another day or two. I'm working another 12 hour shift tomorrow and then collecting my girls for the weekend. (Myself and my wife separated April 2018). I probably won't be able to post again till Saturday at the earliest re the resistance exercise. Thanks again for your time and guidance I'm very grateful.

I won’t give you anything extra. Have a good look at resistance and then go back to the ‘looking for gaps’ exercise and do that several times when you can, and then have a look at the thought exercise I gave you to do prior to the gap exercise. If you can’t fit this in over the weekend…do it when you can

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I didn’t have any time really to myself today but I did continue with the looking at AE exercise.

Let’s look at resistance

The label ‘resistance’ is AE of thought and not AE of resistance
The sensation labelled as ‘resistance’ is AE of sensation and not AE of resistance
The image labelled ‘me/I/body’ is AE of colour and not AE of a person resisting
The thoughts about resistance, what it is, what it does and who it is happening to are all thought content of ‘resistance’ and are AE of thought and not AE of resistance.

So what is actually known is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about resistance. But is resistance actually known?

I can see by that logic in AE that resistance can’t really be known it is only something that thought comes up with to try and cloud the AE in the moment. There are plenty of thoughts about resistance but when all thought is ignored there isn’t any resistance. The unpleasant sensation in my gut that thought will quickly label as resistance or fear or whatever is simply just a sensation which doesn’t need any labeling attached to it.

You have been doing a great job of breaking stuff down to AE. Take another couple of days so that you feel comfortable with it and that you are clear what AE is.

I have been continuing with this exercise over the last few days and while I’m noticing still a tendency to want to distract myself from this work the habit of labeling my experience with sound touch taste smell thought and sensation is there more often than not throughout my day. And like you mentioned it is good to just be aware of things as they happen without any expectations of anything changing or dissipating by looking.
I did have a shitty phone call with my ex wife yesterday evening which left me feeling angry and disappointed and also a little fearful as she threatened to restrict access to our girls. I must admit for about an hour all thoughts of this work and labeling feelings and sensations went out the window but after getting some support from a friend over the phone I was fairly calm when I did call to collect the girls from my ex’s house. Today even as myself and the girls were doing stuff together I was able to practice the labeling exercise periodically throughout the day which was great. I’m starting to see that I’m not my thoughts although I’ll need to work on the Gaps between thoughts exercise and the previous one before I confidently see that.
I'll be dropping the girls back to their mother tomorrow evening and will have a bit more time to work on the thought exercises. I’ll try and put up a post tomorrow evening but if not I will on Monday morning.

All the best

Ado