Drawn to the gate

[Wildsprout]

OK, cannot stay away, back already to try to explore these questions. I feel uncertain about a good chunk of this.

If a label/thought could influence thought it would mean that one thought would know about the other, right?
Can thoughts know anything or experience anything?

It does seem as though one thought leads to another, but a thought couldn't know about another thought. Thoughts seem to be more like separate messages, each in their own bubble and not interacting with each other. But one thought can relate to another thought (your example "that woman reminds me of my aunt") so somehow, that thought is based on another thought? It refers to another thought. How can that be if they are all totally separate? Just because they come from the same place, wherever that is?

Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

Looking back at the GREEN example... thought/label did not make contact with the word, in red font. There was a thought/label layered on top of the sense experience of the word in red font but it could not touch the AE...

The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

Based on the previous questions - if it is seen that thoughts are all separate bubbles and do not interact with each other, then it would follow that all of the thoughts about the story of me would be separate and isolated, without continuity. I can't find this to be true though. It feels that I experience a thought that has been built upon, or refers to or is caused by a previous thought. For example I learn about a process one day at work, and then the next day there are problem-solving thoughts based upon what was learned the day before. The thoughts on the second day seem based on the thoughts from the first day and could not have happened without them. I can see that they are not able to interact, because they are just messages. But somehow, they seem to have some continuity...

I feel that I am missing something big right here, but can't seem to get any further with 'looking'... there are thoughts coming up that are really conceptual but I know that's not what we do here... so I am stuck. Does it have something to do with the perception of time?

Can you determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears?
Can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, unless you can somehow know thoughts beforehand?
Can you decide just to have a certain way of thoughts like only positive thoughts?
Can you avoid having negative thoughts?

No, no, no, no... thoughts do just come, they show up alongside or laid over AE. They claim it, they label and describe and expound upon it... this I can see. It is the continuity and the relativity of the thoughts that is not making sense.

Are you the thinker of thoughts?

The answer is, there is no thinker of the thoughts... the thoughts come, the experiences come, they all pass by. Yet, I am still stuck in the I, and so I feel like the thinker of the thoughts. The belief that there is no thinker of the thoughts, and that the thoughts are just coming present in the same way the other parts of experience are present... the belief I know is not what is needed, but it is more solid than before this inquiry. Maybe that doesn't matter in the least :)

[Jadzia]

This is a new angle to look at thought, stick to AE this’ll make it easier.

It does seem as though one thought leads to another, but a thought couldn't know about another thought.

What makes it seem as? Where does the information come from? Isn’t it another thought?
What about thoughts being amazingly self referencing?

Thoughts seem to be more like separate messages, each in their own bubble and not interacting with each other.

“Seem to” shows thinking about, right? ;-)
Observing thoughts like a hawk, can you find a connection between thoughts other than in a thought “They must be connected”?

Looking back at the GREEN example... thought/label did not make contact with the word, in red font. There was a thought/label layered on top of the sense experience of the word in red font but it could not touch the AE...

This is not looking but going with the learned.
So is there a connection between sensation and thought for example?
Look!
If there is one you should find a mechanism or something which connects these two, something that runs from one to the other, right?
Next time a sensation labelled emotion appears have a close and thorough look.

Based on the previous questions - if it is seen that thoughts are all separate bubbles and do not interact with each other, then it would follow that all of the thoughts about the story of me would be separate and isolated, without continuity. I can't find this to be true though. It feels that I experience a thought that has been built upon, or refers to or is caused by a previous thought. For example I learn about a process one day at work, and then the next day there are problem-solving thoughts based upon what was learned the day before. The thoughts on the second day seem based on the thoughts from the first day and could not have happened without them. I can see that they are not able to interact, because they are just messages. But somehow, they seem to have some continuity...

The question here is: What gives the information about continuity?
It is another thought, isn’t it?
Have a look, thoughts are self referencing. Observe the line of thought again and check how they appear, adding to the story of continuity again and again. Don’t let them slip by, just watch and admire this amazing display of offering, self referencing, verifying each other ect.

Does it have something to do with the perception of time?

There are thoughts about past (memory) and thoughts about future (day dreams, phantasy).
More about this later.

No, no, no, no... thoughts do just come, they show up alongside or laid over AE. They claim it, they label and describe and expound upon it... this I can see.

Yes, not much control here, right?
Any idea where thoughts come from and go to??? AE?

The answer is, there is no thinker of the thoughts... the thoughts come, the experiences come, they all pass by. Yet, I am still stuck in the I, and so I feel like the thinker of the thoughts. The belief that there is no thinker of the thoughts, and that the thoughts are just coming present in the same way the other parts of experience are present... the belief I know is not what is needed, but it is more solid than before this inquiry. Maybe that doesn't matter in the least :)

Look again, where is the I, the thinker found? Can you pinpoint it to a part of the body or somewhere else? Have a look and answer in all honesty.

Love,
Jadzia

[Wildsprout]

Ok... yes there was a lot of thinking in the last reply! Trying to get the answers right, trying to see. Will do my best to stick to direct experience...

It does seem as though one thought leads to another, but a thought couldn't know about another thought.
What makes it seem as? Where does the information come from? Isn’t it another thought?

Yes, it has to be a thought that one thought leads to another. In AE - thoughts show up individually, separate from themselves, separate from experience.

What about thoughts being amazingly self referencing?

Almost all, maybe all, of the thoughts are self referencing... so there is this near constant stream of thoughts that are most if not all self-referencing, and nothing else in AE is about the self. All of the thoughts are about the self, none of the sense experiences are about the self, but the thoughts overlay and say something about the experience that makes it seem that it is about the self.

“Seem to” shows thinking about, right? ;-)
Observing thoughts like a hawk, can you find a connection between thoughts other than in a thought “They must be connected”?

Ok right... thoughts are not connected in any way in AE. They just flow in. Ok... I see that the CONTENT of some thoughts may refer to other thoughts, but the thoughts themselves are not connected.

So is there a connection between sensation and thought for example?
Look!
If there is one you should find a mechanism or something which connects these two, something that runs from one to the other, right?
Next time a sensation labelled emotion appears have a close and thorough look.

There are no connections between them. All of the sensations (perceptions, emotions) and thoughts (labels, stories) all appear in the same space. They come and go within that space. They are not connected in AE. There are thoughts about connections - those are labels with stories. In AE it is sensations and thoughts showing up independently. It is thought that seems to make any meaning or coherence of it.

The question here is: What gives the information about continuity?
It is another thought, isn’t it?
Have a look, thoughts are self referencing. Observe the line of thought again and check how they appear, adding to the story of continuity again and again. Don’t let them slip by, just watch and admire this amazing display of offering, self referencing, verifying each other ect.

Yes... thoughts are what give the information about continuity. Thoughts about continuity are nearly constant... thoughts are feeding AE over and over with the stories of continuity, past and future, about me. There is nothing here about me or about continuity except the thoughts. In this moment, there are sensations which are the AE, closest most real... labels added to the sensations of AE is the next layer out, giving meaning to what the things are... then stories about "me" and my relation to these things, giving information about my position within these stories and in time (memory, fantasy/anticipation) is the next layer out- least real, all is thought.

Thoughts about "me", thoughts about things that have happened to me and things that I have done in the past, thoughts about what is going to happen, thoughts about my patterns and my personality, thoughts about every single thing all the time. Thoughts swoop in constantly and keep the story going all the time. Thoughts flow into the experience and give shape to it and keep feeding the story all the time...

Yes, not much control here, right?
Any idea where thoughts come from and go to??? AE?

No idea where they come from and go to. They must come from and go to the same place that the experience is coming from and going to, where else could there be? (that is a thought)... All that is experienced is this field of sensations, perceptions, and thoughts - all the time that is what it is. It all must be coming from the same place. OMG just overcome with emotion here - such a cliche but it really is like the Matrix right, it is just a field of sensations, perceptions, and thoughts, being 'fed' or somehow coming into the field of experience continuously, it all goes together and fits together beautifully. It is intelligent, it is all so intricate, this story and this display and all the 'evidence' that it is true including all these convoluted thought processes, emotions - all designed to hold together this feeling of being a person.

I can see it... I can see that there is no one here! I see it. I am using language but I see it. This is just the experience of all of it, the experience of the sensations, perceptions, and thoughts that make up the story of "my life"... this is just a story of a life, there is no center to it, it is all just here. I see that there is no me... I can't stop crying, not sad just overwhelmed. There were clues everywhere but the association with the body was so strong, and seeing other people with bodies saying they don't exist, it didn't make sense. Because that is just the way it looks in the display. There must be a reason for this, there must be some reason why there is a way out of the illusion.

Ok Jadzia... it was seen on some level at least, thoughts are still flowing in, self referencing thoughts, doubts, questions... need to get ready for work and watch what happens with this. Thank you.... big shift happening here...

[Jadzia]

such a cliche but it really is like the Matrix right, it is just a field of sensations, perceptions, and thoughts, being 'fed' or somehow coming into the field of experience continuously, it all goes together and fits together beautifully. It is intelligent, it is all so intricate, this story and this display and all the 'evidence' that it is true including all these convoluted thought processes, emotions - all designed to hold together this feeling of being a person.

Not quite like Matrix………
The illusion stays and that is fine – the Illusion is as much part of what it as everything else.
And why should there be a need for a way out? For whom?

We are talking here about non separation, really none at all.
That what is, whatever we like to call it, is everything, right now. There is nothing included and nothing excluded, no inside of it, no outside of it – just it. Or as some say Life is Life-ing.
Remember the 3 D picture, all is the picture. Illusion and non illusion.

I can see it... I can see that there is no one here! I see it. I am using language but I see it. This is just the experience of all of it, the experience of the sensations, perceptions, and thoughts that make up the story of "my life"... this is just a story of a life, there is no center to it, it is all just here. I see that there is no me... I can't stop crying, not sad just overwhelmed.

Yes, just experience experiencing.
Tears are often happening when the overview shifts.
Remember the 3 D picture, all is the picture. Illusion and non illusion.

Ok Jadzia... it was seen on some level at least, thoughts are still flowing in, self referencing thoughts, doubts, questions... need to get ready for work and watch what happens with this. Thank you.... big shift happening here...

Beautiful.
We will go on clearing stuff away.

Just mull all this over and then we will look at some other things.

Love,
Jadzia

[Wildsprout]

Yes... there is no need for a way out, there is no way out. That was the "I" talking. The illusion and the eventual seeing of the illusion is all part of the same experience. Everything that happens, all of the clues, the red herrings, the hints, the traps, the LU website and the guide, all part of this experience/dream/3D picture. Nothing is wrong with it, there is nothing to change about it, it would be impossible to change anything, impossible to 'do' anything wrong, no mistakes, it's just a story flowing, that is the whole point of it, experiencing the story of a life.

So far, today it does feel different. Getting ready for work, no worries, none of the usual judgment against myself. Looked in the mirror and look, there is Stephanie, all dressed, she looks nice, no need to be bothered about it. Driving my son to school, he's there in the back seat being cute and funny, I feel love for him. Driving into the parking garage at work, thought comes in about a meeting later with a big shot VP, no need to be anxious about it - it's just going to happen. Walked in the door and suddenly there is the scent of someone's perfume, it smells so good I almost cried. So it's a noticing of things in a different way when it's not all covered up by the heavy blanket of "me" thoughts, worries, judgments, anxieties, and all those strong feelings of needing to DO something about it all, change it, make it better, finally feel like "I" am perfect and complete. I don't even exist, how could I ever be complete... a bunch of thoughts and ideas can never be complete. It is by its nature, incomplete and full of holes.

Thought is asking questions... thought is trying to outline what this will be like from now on. Is that what the further looking will address?

Thank you <3

[Jadzia]

This sounds beautiful! :-D

Since time was already mentioned:
There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Love,
Jadzia

[Wildsprout]

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

No experience of now moving along the timeline... definitely no experience of one moment changing to another one. The moment is always the same moment... the things that are experienced are always changing... but that is a thought. Right now, there is only what is happening right now.

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

This one is tough... there seems (in thought) to be one event following another event. However right now, there is only what is happening right now, with memories (thoughts) of what happened before and expectations (thoughts) of what might happen next. So the direct experience is always only of what is currently happening now... the rest is thought.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

The present moment isn't moving, it did not begin, it will not end. It is the field of current experience. The 'past' is only thoughts about what was experienced before. There is no past in AE. In AE there is only what is happening now. So there is not experience of time, there is only thought about time, thought about past and future events.

These words are coming in answer to the questions, but it isn't felt. There is still a very strong feeling that what is happening now is actually happening and then recedes into past. If everything about the past is only a thought form, and not real, then even what is happening right now, in AE, is only a thought form and not real? How could it be real and then immediately become not real?

[Jadzia]

These words are coming in answer to the questions, but it isn't felt. There is still a very strong feeling that what is happening now is actually happening and then recedes into past. If everything about the past is only a thought form, and not real, then even what is happening right now, in AE, is only a thought form and not real? How could it be real and then immediately become not real?

This is pretty mind baffling, alright. Time just a concept, no time line, no before, no after.
Even now is just a word.
All there is ever known is This and This always knows itself exactly as it is. No knowledge from before, no knowledge in the future.

Coming to AE, yes, it is another concept, one we need to use if we want to communicate.

In the Buddhist tradition there is this division between relative and absolute truth - because it's much easier to talk. Relative is a conceptual level - which is not really true outside of itself (we call it content of thoughts), and when we speak or think or discuss things we are automatically are on the relative level.
So we use references to time when we talk, it is ok. Don’t worry if you somehow get it but it doesn’t sink in yet. This is a sneak preview.

Lets have a look at the belief of the self as actor, the one initiating the action.
On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.

1,2,3,4,5!

And did you find a someone initiating the movement?

Love,
Jadzia

[Wildsprout]

Yeah, baffling. But the mind isn't designed to understand it, right... the mind is designed to understand it in the typical way we do - time on a timeline, space with objects in it, concepts that can be explained with language, subject with verb. Rupert Spira said eternity refracted through the mind becomes the experience of time, and infinity refracted through the mind becomes the experience of space... so that makes more sense now.

So even AE is concepts... what is real is the Tao, whatever that is. Lines I have heard before in spiritual texts coming back to me... from ACIM "Nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists."

On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.
1,2,3,4,5!
And did you find a someone initiating the movement?

Nope, the movement happened, it did not need someone to initiate it. The movement happened closeby the thought about following the directions. The body is running - heartbeat, breathing, typing, arm moving. Thoughts are happening alongside, thoughts sometimes of being the doer. They are just thoughts!

[Jadzia]

But the mind isn't designed to understand it, right...

It can't. And then there is the question where/if mind is found in AE........

So even AE is concepts... what is real is the Tao, whatever that is.

You open your mouth and out comes a concept. Since it is This, all is fine. ;-)

Nope, the movement happened, it did not need someone to initiate it. The movement happened closeby the thought about following the directions. The body is running - heartbeat, breathing, typing, arm moving. Thoughts are happening alongside, thoughts sometimes of being the doer. They are just thoughts!

So no controler of movement. Good. Thoughts doing their thought thing, nothing wrong with that.

Here is another lovely exercise:
The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Love,
Jadzia

[Wildsprout]

Good morning Jadzia

Thanks so much for staying with me on this... so many realizations/thoughts yesterday, insights, then realizing the insights are just thoughts, getting confused about what is real and what is not, wondering if this whole thing is just another part of the story of me... I mean, in a way it is right? It becomes a part of the story of me, because here is this dialogue and the seeing more glimpses 'behind the veil' and then... the story character is impacted by this, and things change in the story of thought - the character begins to act and feel differently and think about all these different things, so is the 'seeing' just part of the story? But then if time does not exist then things are not really changing or even happening... ugh! Maybe the real question is, is this normal to get completely confused, it must be. And this is the path through the confusion, this inquiry dialogue that is happening? The program is still running strong, but it is sensed now. Feels like there is no solid ground to stand on...

Ok... and the exercise

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

"I" did not choose the qualities, they were just there in thought/memory. The preference was just there as well, it was based on thought/memory. Like a program running. The program has information - this is what coffee is, this is what water is, it is morning, I want coffee. All just there, no choosing, they just showed up. Really did feel like something like a computer program, providing answers based on what has supposedly happened or been known in the past.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

There was no direct experience of a mental function choosing... the switch from preferences to counting to picking up the cup just happened. There was no experience of a mechanism that prompted or orchestrated these changes in the stream of thought/action. They just happened along with... so there is still this vague feeling of 'intention' - intention to follow the directions, to start counting, to pick up the coffee. That is a thought, concept that just goes along with it. There isn't any mechanism or 'doing' involved in it. It's just the feeling that seems to go along with an action taking place. Part of what makes this whole thing so convincing. But there was nothing that seemed to be 'the chooser'...

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

There is that feeling. But looking at it, the feeling is just part of the experience that is happening when the thoughts and actions take place. The feeling is there, but the feeling cannot choose. Nothing chooses - the story runs itself.

[Jadzia]

Feels like there is no solid ground to stand on...

It can feel like that in the beginning, or like trying a split and wondering how to do it without getting hurt.
The absolute and the relative just are…..This.
Story – no story, self – no self and so on.
With the time it will feel more natural. It takes some sinking in.

Really did feel like something like a computer program, providing answers based on what has supposedly happened or been known in the past.

Habitual responses, offers, assumptions, maybe guesses which might fit or not?

But there was nothing that seemed to be 'the chooser'...

Could one say choosing, deciding happens as well as counting happens?

There is that feeling. But looking at it, the feeling is just part of the experience that is happening when the thoughts and actions take place. The feeling is there, but the feeling cannot choose. Nothing chooses - the story runs itself.

Sometimes there is just thought content „This feels like….“ without any perception of a feeling, sensation – it can be just a manner of talk, erm thought.
And Life is life-ing.

So no chooser or decider, no time.
How about a controller?

Love,
jadzia

[Wildsprout]

So no chooser or decider, no time.
How about a controller?

No chooser, no decider, no time, no controller. It has all already happened, or never happened, so it could not be controlled at least not from the "me". The experience is just experiencing itself, imagining, playing, creating itself.

There was a story running as I awaited your response, it felt uncomfortable and familiar. Feelings of self-doubt, unworthiness, a need for validation. There was tingling feeling in the chest, a sense of urgency to get the next reply, to be sure that I was on the right track and hadn't made some fatal mistake. Realized this is just a pattern, a familiar pattern of thoughts and feelings. The story runs, and it is the story itself that has these characteristics of discomfort, fear, insecurity. The characteristics seemed before to be 'owned' by the main character, me. But yet, those same characteristics are also experienced in the world, reflected by people, events, situations, and the seeking movement. The seeking is ultimately for love and comfort and belonging, it has been playing itself out and over and over, and always the same feeling. Never enough, never at ease, and that is because "I" never existed. And there is no difference between the feelings inside and the expression outside, they match because they are all the same thing and there is no border, there is no inside and no outside because there is no me.

Yet thoughts say there is still a 'problem'… the feeling of peace from yesterday is not here right now. Right now it feels empty and sad, like a loss.

[Jadzia]

The experience is just experiencing itself, imagining, playing, creating itself.

For experience to experience itself, there would have to be an outside from which it could be experienced.
I get what you mean, maybe it is like a dance, absolutely spontaneously or whatever. ;-)

There was a story running as I awaited your response, it felt uncomfortable and familiar. Feelings of self-doubt, unworthiness, a need for validation. There was tingling feeling in the chest, a sense of urgency to get the next reply, to be sure that I was on the right track and hadn't made some fatal mistake. Realized this is just a pattern, a familiar pattern of thoughts and feelings.

Wildsprout's story goes on and on, thoughts rattle on and on, so what is the difference now? The knowing that wildsprout is a fictive persona, character about which a story is told, like in a book or a film. Parts of the story repeat again and again just when they seemingly fit. The character can be loved and the unfolding of the story enjoyed.
There will be more and more realizations what is simply a repetative pattern and they will slowly wear thin.

Yet thoughts say there is still a 'problem'… the feeling of peace from yesterday is not here right now. Right now it feels empty and sad, like a loss.

Hm, peace will come and go, sad will come and go, as will anger, joy and so on. And until it settles there might be a bit of jo jo-ing, to and fro. All is well.
There can be a bit sadness and the feeling of loss, yes. The one fat big belief around which everything is woven is saying good bye, adios....take a hanky and wave, afterward do a bit of sniffling and giggle.

Love,
Jadzia

[Wildsprout]

Thank you... the thought that this character can be loved, the story enjoyed, brought so many tears. For now, all i feel is exhausted. And that is ok, it will flow through, there is nothing for it to get caught on anyway.

Feels like this just needs to settle in for a little while.... <3


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