Looking for a long time and quite confused.

[Sarah7]

Hi Felix
I’ve sent you a pm. Not sure if you saw it.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Hopefulness]

Hi Felix,

Sarah has requested that someone step in for her. Are you still wanting to pursue this?

[SomeOne]

Hi,

yes, I still want to pursue this! Thank you for offering to step in!

Felix

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

O.K. I'll have some time this afternoon to sit down with this and get started. What time zone are you in?

[SomeOne]

Thank you! I'm in Germany, so GMT+1 (right now its 15:49 if that helps).

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

I will try to read through your thread to figure out where you are stuck. I did see where your mother passed away recently but your spiritual seeking seems to have started before them. Most if not all spiritual seekers at your age started seeking after some type of traumatic or semi-traumatic event. Enlighten me on yours because that may be affecting this dialogue.

Now to get down to brass tacks. Most guides on this forum use a form of direct inquiry that seeks to show the emptiness of thoughts. They try to point to "what you are not". That works well on some people, not so well on others. The other side of the coin-and I'm probably oversimplifying here- is the awareness teachings which, in essence, points to "what" you actually are, and not "who" thought says you are. I'll put this as simply as possible and then give you a simple exercise to do throughout the day so that you can notice what I am pointing to on your own. First of all you have to know one definition. Awareness is seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, and smelling. There are a host of other elements to it, but we will stick with the most common. The important thing to know here though is that thoughts arise within, or are written upon the background of awareness.

Now, if a teacher were to tell you to go the blackboard, pick up the chalk and tell me "who" you are you will print out your thoughts. "My name is Felix, I live in Germany, my parents were _(fill in the blanks)_, I grew up in ________ I enjoy sports, reading,...…I am told I am a good __________. On, and on, and on, and on, and on."

Now when you got through you would point to the writing on the board and say, "yes, that is me, Felix, that is "who" I am. You would point to a biography and feel that that was "you".

You're teacher would say, "good boy" and you would feel good about "yourself."

Now here's your exercise. Suppose rather than the teacher saying "good boy" she said instead, "You idiot. Is there actually a belief in all that nonsense. Erase that whole blackboard and tell me what is left." So you erase the whole blackboard and sheepishly say, "just the blackboard, just the background."

And the teacher says, "good boy."

How would that make you feel?

[SomeOne]

Hi,

quick question at the beginning: what can I call you in my replies? Just asking because not having a name feels weird, but anything is fine!

I will try to read through your thread to figure out where you are stuck. I did see where your mother passed away recently but your spiritual seeking seems to have started before them.

Yes, I think I first stumbled upon the predecessor of this forum ('Ruthless Arena' was the name I think) something like 10-12 years ago, so when I was between 15-17.

I also have an old thread on this forum from 2012 (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=275&p=5079#p5079). It didn't feel important until now, but since you mentioned it, I dug it up and found the link.

Most if not all spiritual seekers at your age started seeking after some type of traumatic or semi-traumatic event. Enlighten me on yours because that may be affecting this dialogue.

I can't really say that there was one specific event, but around the time I was 10-13/14 I didn't really have many friends, was bullied quite a bit, and grew up rather shy and spending a lot of time alone in my room/on my pc, even after the situation had gotten much better. I also realized that in my earlier years my parents also had quite a few problems (although they got much closer again during the last few years), and things weren't really good at home always. I think that period affected me quite a lot. I can't really diagnose myself, but I would say that I was pretty depressed, sometimes I spent a lot of time just lying in my bed etc, also during the following years. I think there is some more stuff here I also sent Sarah in a PM (somewhere after page 10 I think?), and I'll send that to you as well.

Now to get down to brass tacks. Most guides on this forum use a form of direct inquiry that seeks to show the emptiness of thoughts. They try to point to "what you are not". That works well on some people, not so well on others. The other side of the coin-and I'm probably oversimplifying here- is the awareness teachings which, in essence, points to "what" you actually are, and not "who" thought says you are. I'll put this as simply as possible and then give you a simple exercise to do throughout the day so that you can notice what I am pointing to on your own. First of all you have to know one definition. Awareness is seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, and smelling. There are a host of other elements to it, but we will stick with the most common. The important thing to know here though is that thoughts arise within, or are written upon the background of awareness.

Ok! I can see a bit of how that fits in with what I have been looking at so far. I explored Awareness a bit today. When I focused on seeing, thoughts like "I am seeing right now" came up. Here I saw how such thoughts just "layer over" the experience itself and label it.

One thing I also "keep doing" (or rather, thoughts of this kind keep showing up) is thinking inverted thoughts. So, when a thought like "I am unhappy" shows up, sometimes I think "I am not unhappy" immediately afterwards. As both thoughts just claim something, and are equally 'real'/true, it somehow brings up how the first thought isn't all that much correct, but simply a random thought. This seems to rather be the "what you are not" part.

Now, if a teacher were to tell you to go the blackboard, pick up the chalk and tell me "who" you are you will print out your thoughts. "My name is Felix, I live in Germany, my parents were _(fill in the blanks)_, I grew up in ________ I enjoy sports, reading,...…I am told I am a good __________. On, and on, and on, and on, and on."

Now when you got through you would point to the writing on the board and say, "yes, that is me, Felix, that is "who" I am. You would point to a biography and feel that that was "you".

You're teacher would say, "good boy" and you would feel good about "yourself."

Now here's your exercise. Suppose rather than the teacher saying "good boy" she said instead, "You idiot. Is there actually a belief in all that nonsense. Erase that whole blackboard and tell me what is left." So you erase the whole blackboard and sheepishly say, "just the blackboard, just the background."

And the teacher says, "good boy."

How would that make you feel?

When I read this the first time, my immediate reaction at the end was that I had to laugh for some reason - something about it was funny. I think the funny thing was that after erasing all of the words there was still something left - the blackboard/the background. It ends without there "being an answer", but there also doesn't need to be "an answer" anymore somehow. It makes me feel a little bit.. free? Something like that. I can't really explain it too well.

Thank you!

Felix

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

I'm Paul.

For some reason I am just now seeing your post and I have to go home and take care of some things. I'll post tomorrow. You gave a good answer on the exercise. Try to notice what it is that actually notices thoughts. What is that "still something left" you described.

[Hopefulness]

It ends without there "being an answer", but there also doesn't need to be "an answer" anymore somehow. It makes me feel a little bit.. free? Something like that. I can't really explain it too well.

You've had a little more time to feel this. Try to elaborate.

[SomeOne]

It ends without there "being an answer", but there also doesn't need to be "an answer" anymore somehow. It makes me feel a little bit.. free? Something like that. I can't really explain it too well.

You've had a little more time to feel this. Try to elaborate.

Hey,

I'm tied up this weekend, will have time to reply back tomorrow afternoon/evening (in ~30h). Thank you!

[SomeOne]

Hey,

once again sorry for the late reply, I was completely busy from Friday till now.

Try to notice what it is that actually notices thoughts. What is that "still something left" you described.

So, I understood this as bringing the metaphor of the blackboard into reality, that is: Thoughts written down on the blackboard equal the thoughts that are going on all the time and the blackboard equals "?" (the "still something left"). This was somehow difficult to do; So instead I tried focusing on what you said before, e.g., seeing, feeling, etc., which forms this "background"/awareness. When doing this there a few small moments, e.g. when I focused on seeing, where I "noticed" something. These were smaller moments, and it's difficult to give an exact meaning to them, just some kind of realization.

At one point the thought "I have been focusing on not-thought (seeing/hearing/etc.)" popped up, and was somehow really funny - because there was the realization that this was just a thought! Also, as a thought, that it was very unpersonal. It put emphasis on what was meant by the thought, so the focus on not-thought, which is different from the thought itself.

I also had a thought like "tomorrow is just going to be the same again", and noticed that this, as well, was just a thought! That was really freeing somehow, because it showed how all that that was was a thought. So the complaint only existed in thought.

Both of these "realizations" felt quite strong (in comparison to the other smaller things).

It ends without there "being an answer", but there also doesn't need to be "an answer" anymore somehow. It makes me feel a little bit.. free? Something like that. I can't really explain it too well.

You've had a little more time to feel this. Try to elaborate.

This feeling of "free" was only a quick feeling that I experienced when I did the exercise, but nothing that lasted and that I felt/explored more, so I can't really elaborate on this. I also didn't come back to the exercise again (I focused on the "what is it that notices thoughts" that you posted afterward). Should I have kept the exercise in my mind some more? Anyway, I took this opportunity to come back to it, and this is what came up:

At the end of the story, there would be nothing to feel good/"proud" about anymore, like there was after the first part. The end of the story points to what's left when beliefs/what we "know" about ourselves is questioned/thrown away, and to what's "behind" those beliefs and thoughts. Does this go in the right direction?

Thanks!

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Yes. Stay with it. Either question or exercise is good to look at. You are getting glimpses of what I am pointing to. Take your time. Write what comes up.

[SomeOne]

Hi,

quick update.

One thing I noticed is that it's somehow hard to keep working with the two exercises, it feels like there is resistance when I want to work with them again. It seems I have been/want to "jump from exercise to exercise" or something.

Also, it feels like the exercise needs quite some focus, so it's difficult to do throughout the day, and I only get little opportunities to remember them.

One other thing that I noticed was the disconnect between bodily sensations and thoughts. Such as the thought "I am nervous"/"I am concentrating"/etc. as comments on just some simple sensations.

At one point I noticed that after I had typed something, the thought "ok, next point" came up, but the thought came up afterward, when typing had already happened. That also felt weird for some reason.

When I went through the teacher/student exercise again and actually filled in the blanks in my head, some anger and confusion came up when told to erase everything on the blackboard and that it's "nonsense". Also some sadness/fear came up because "my story" is being 'denied'.

I remembered something I read a long time ago, which is "what happens to your unhappiness when you don't mind being unhappy?", and that always feels like something useful.

More and more often after a thought there is a notion of it being just a thought, but that it's not aimed at anybody or anything.

It's not much, because it's being kind of difficult to work with/focus on the exercises, but I will keep at it and take some more time with it.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Also some sadness/fear came up because "my story" is being 'denied'.

Good. Fear is a common reaction when this stuff starts sinking in. I had some of it. I can laugh about it now, but it was very real back then. As far as the anger, that can come up too, even though anger and fear are closely intertwined. You have been sold a bill of goods by family, friends, and society at large for the benefit of your survival. Defining "who you were" was considered a necessary evil, and the price of it is suffering. Don't run from the fear, and don't worry about the anger. Let it have its say.


Stay with it. Write what comes up.

[SomeOne]

Hey,

Good. Fear is a common reaction when this stuff starts sinking in. I had some of it. I can laugh about it now, but it was very real back then. As far as the anger, that can come up too, even though anger and fear are closely intertwined. You have been sold a bill of goods by family, friends, and society at large for the benefit of your survival. Defining "who you were" was considered a necessary evil, and the price of it is suffering. Don't run from the fear, and don't worry about the anger. Let it have its say.


Stay with it. Write what comes up.

At some point when reading this - don't know when anymore - I suddenly thought/realized "I don't really know myself". Not in a negative sense or anything, more just a matter-of-fact realization. This has shown up over the day a couple of times, mostly in reaction to other thoughts. To try to put it into words, the consequences are something like 'Not everything I think is obviously true', and also 'Everything is new, nothing is known'.

It still is really hard to do the exercises, especially the first one (blackboard). There is some kind of intense resistance, and thoughts like "I want to move on to the next thing, not stay with this" come up. I then wondered "why?", and found that I think that "I don't really understand this" (this = exercises etc., what I am doing), and that somehow makes me want to not do the exercise.

When I engaged with the blackboard exercise again, what came up was that I felt that I couldn't really do the exercise anymore, e.g., the things that came up before when doing the exercise don't come up anymore, and nothing else sensible comes up either.

The "What is it that notices thought?/What is that 'still something left'?" exercise worked better. I noticed that "seeing" is still going on when thought is there and also when it is not there. At some point I wondered "what does it mean to notice thoughts/what is noticing?", and that led me to notice that "I am seeing/experiencing/whatever thoughts" is also just a thought! That felt quite insightful and relieving.

Thanks!